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CitizenCane -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/14/2007 2:35:36 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Aswad
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ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch
One cannot simply choose any action/stimulus and expect the identical (Pavlovian) response in all subjects. Clothespins are not bells...
In the strictest sense, yes, you can, and yes, they are.
It is why a CSA victim may get nauseous from a specific scent, or why one can make us salivate.
It is why a specific colour or flavour can bring back the bliss of a summer well spent.
It is why being touched in some special way gets us all hot, while another touch doesn't.
It is why someone who was in a war can drop flat like a ragdoll at a loud sound, adrenaline pumping.
It is why something we used to like no longer tastes good because we ate it before vomiting once.
It is why anal sex sucks if you did it wrong once.
And it is why "our song" makes it all come back.
Given the right conditioning, any stimulus can be coupled to any response, even complex ones. It takes time, skill and effort, but it works. Having cooperation from the subject helps, as does picking a stimulus that is well suited to the task. Prior conditioning to the contrary makes things more difficult (i.e. more time-consuming).
I stand corrected. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m25.gif[/image]
Umm.... I don't think you were corrected, actually. These examples are predominantly cases in which an association is created in an undirected fashion- arising naturally out of circumstances. The particular association relates to those circumstances. At issue, I think, is whether a dom can deliberately create the specific associations he desires in a straightforward Pavlovian way, and these examples do not address that. The examples also rely heavily on the term 'can', which falls short of our Pavlovian goal- which is to create a direct, non-optional linkage. The fact is that humans are able to utilize conscious mediation in their responses to stimuli, and while we can't always choose exactly what our response will be, we can often choose something that it won't be. If we have strong conscious or unconscious conflicts with an association, it will tend to get complicated. Only certain kinds of low-level responses can truly be 'conditioned' in the Pavlovian sense- fear, for instance- and in the moment after the conditioned response initiates, more complex counter-reactions can arise, due to conscious or unconscious 'choices'. My initial point was that without some kind of buy-in by the conditionee, creating strong associations between positive feelings (arousal, eg) and erstwhile negative feelings (pain, eg), is apt to result in complex counter-formations that will tend to undermine the desired response shortly after it begins.
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