the nature of God; does it matter? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 10:04:38 AM)

We’ve had plenty of heated debates on similar topics before, with battle lines drawn up between the scientifically and spiritually minded. Such debates usually end in acrimony, and we do not need any further showdowns on the existence of God per se.

Rather, I would like to discuss the nature of God – for whether we acknowledge the objective existence of such a being or not, it seems clear in the world that God certainly exists in the minds of those who confess belief, and is as real as any other mental construct and indeed is the motivation behind real enough actions.

So, the question isn’t really the tired and well-worn one of God’s existence, it is instead a question of the nature of God; real and objective, or a mental construct and subjective?

We also need to widen this question a great deal from the Judaic-Christian-Islamic idea of God. Many cultures do not acknowledge this God, indeed our pre-Christian ancestors had many Gods and Goddesses and modern Hindus share this model. Clearly, the Hindus’ deities are just as real to them as the single God is to the Christian, which must undermine the objective credibility of at least one and possibly both, indicating that God (in the widest sense) must be purely a mental construct arising in us according to culture.

But at the same time, many claim to have had direct personal experience of their God, and across cultures and religions, these experiences share many characteristics, despite there having been no possibility of collusion to make the recollections so similar and despite the cultural differences between those claiming the experiences. Of course, this isn’t evidence necessarily of the objective nature of God but is also explicable by way of reference to the human mind and its functioning in the presence of the mental construct which regardless of culture can be named as God.

We can see then, that God could be a real and objective being, but that equally God could be a mental construct arising from our human psychology, which constructs a God according to our own cultural backgrounds.

As a function of our psychology, does God then fulfil a need we have for such a being? The question for believers and followers of whatever God is then, whether it matters particularly whether God is real or a mental construct, if that need for which God is required, is fulfilled?

E



popeye1250 -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 10:26:49 AM)

Well of course noone really knows.
But I think "God" is more of a scientific nature than a human nature.
The more I learn about Religions the less I like them.
Comparitively, some of them are (so) different that it makes me think that they can't be out to accomplish the same thing.
And there's what, about 200 of them?
If there's only "one" that is "the true religion" what are the odds that your's is the one? Not very good.
That's why I don't practice any religion anymore.
When I say my prayers I pray to "God" not to "Jesus" or anyone else and no I still haven't hit the lottery yet!



szobras -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 10:48:36 AM)

Greetings LadyEllen,
For some apparently there is no need felt to believe in "God", or any other entity, deity, being, by whatever name beyond our physical understanding. For myself, there had been times in my life whereas I did not feel I needed to believe in anything outside of the physical conscious world I live in. I certainly did not decide to seek out, crunch the numbers, nor, learn how to believe. My life has brought me the experiences that have resulted in a belief. I do not claim to have all the answeres, nor even an understanding that goes beyond what I can comprehend. What one processes to believe certainly needs to be fed, fulfilled, validated in some tangable manner,or else how will we continue to trust in a belief. I am human and need to trust in more than blind faith. I need to communicate in a human manner, touch, taste, feel ,see ,hear, ect...My beliefs are solid through my experiences, not someone elses. So indeeed, yes, for me it is fulfilled in many ways. It is a relationship to all things to me. Some things truely are a mystery. Some things are a mystery for a reason. In that I can believe.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 11:04:56 AM)

Get people to stop discussing the nature of the word "slave" in M/s relationships, or how important it is to agree on it.

Then we'll work on the concept of "god."



slaverosebeauty -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 11:57:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
So, the question isn’t really the tired and well-worn one of God’s existence, it is instead a question of the nature of God; real and objective, or a mental construct and subjective?

quote:

As a function of our psychology, does God then fulfil a need we have for such a being? The question for believers and followers of whatever God is then, whether it matters particularly whether God is real or a mental construct, if that need for which God is required, is fulfilled?


First off,  I am a  Spiritualist. I believe in a Higher Power/Being I call Him/It God, its a comfortable term; my beliefs are offshoots of my own personal experiences and developed beliefs {childhood, etc}.
 
God is like most other things, based in faith and on trust in the unknown. I have had experiences in my life where I 'felt' what others have called the 'touch of God' or a 'devine/spiritual experience.'
 
We all need something to believe in and to hold onto in times of need. Most of the mainstream religions are basically the same, they have similar teachings, and philisophies, just other facotors change how it is presented, the detials, etc.
 
At 16, I did just what Ellen is talking about, I sought out the 'other side' of God the phychological side of Him. What I found is that, we humans we need soemthing to hold onto, even if its nothingness. Those who believe in a Higher Power hold onto that, and those are don't believe still hold onto something, even if it is nothingness and emptyness.
 
When I am depressed or in need of guideance or just to have afew quiet moments of contemplation, I do pray to my Higher Power, maybe its just letting my mind do what it needs to do, maybe its a way for me to reconnect with the Universe and my Higher Power, I don't know, I try not to overthink or analyze it if I can help it.
 
In the end, it comes down to faith.
 
Faith in what is up to the individual. I do know thatr wars have been fought and are STILL being fought over faith, so something has to be there, or maybe that is the whole issue, that nothing is 'there' we may never know, maybe we are not meant to know.



Sinergy -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 12:27:08 PM)

 
I posted about this on another thread...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_715059/mpage_1/key_chicken/tm.htm

Which looked at it from an Athiest perspective.

I am not sure it matters.  If there is a supreme energy or life force or diety in the Universe, I have trouble figuring out why said being would give a good gawd damn what I think of him/her/it.

But as Robert Duvall pointed out (Im paraphrasing) in the movie Secondhand Lions, "Sometimes a man has to believe something to be true, whether or not that thing is true."  I have specific moral standards I apply to myself, not because I think I will be judged by something else, but because I judge myself and evaluate my behavior on a daily basis.

Taking that comment into consideration, I fully support the rights of other people to believe what they want to believe.  In a sense, there is a certain amount of jealousy I have towards people who have faith.  Which is not to say I want their faith inflicted on me, but I am happy they have found something that works for them.

Sinergy



szobras -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 12:30:42 PM)

Time to dig through the DVD's. I was thinking about what movie to watch tonight. haven't seen that one in awhile.Thanks for the reminder.



Vendaval -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 1:39:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

As a function of our psychology, does God then fulfil a need we have for such a being?

Most definately, the human psyche searches for meaning and structure.

The question for believers and followers of whatever God is then, whether it matters particularly whether God is real or a mental construct, if that need for which God is required, is fulfilled?

E

Many followers of Goddess religions will argue that Goddess have long been in neglect in the West, allowed as chaste saints and the Virgin Mary to strip them of their sexual power.
 
On the other hand, many a hetero feminist comic will argue that if God was a Woman, then men would be born with their penises on their chins!  [:D]




LotusSong -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 2:48:58 PM)

God is the ultimate Dominant Entity... with one wicked sense of humor :)
 
I do not define God nor suppose to understand His/Her beingness.  I'm just glad He/She understands mine :)



RCdc -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 3:26:14 PM)

 
I believe that it is all of the above.  People see god - or their gods - just as we need to percieve him - in a way that, as an individual, we can understand him or her to be.
 
That makes this deity/ies real and subjective and everything else you mentioned.
That is what makes 'god' everything and in all things.
And fulfilling.
 
Peace
the.dark.



RCdc -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 3:30:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Get people to stop discussing the nature of the word "slave" in M/s relationships, or how important it is to agree on it.

Then we'll work on the concept of "god."

In a sense, I agree.  I also think this circles back to LadyE's question on what god is.
Even being a slave, is construct and subjective and real and even objective to the individuals perception and ideas.
BDSM and god with a link - who'da thunk it huh?
 
Peace
the.dark.



NeedToUseYou -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/12/2007 11:58:18 PM)

My real view of God is that God is in our very DNA makeup. I'm not saying a literal god, like we argue about constantly, but the concept of God, and the knowledge of right and wrong. It seems fairly obvious to me, anyway, that basic human notions of right and wrong cross every society. Blatant cold-hearted murder, everyone knows that is wrong. Everyone knows taking other peoples belongings is wrong, and I'm sure even in societies that don't believe in permanent property, they wouldn't believe in taking someone's immediate property away, like a spear, or food they are eating.. The very very basics, I believe are encoded. And God in my view is the innate knowledge of what is right and what is wrong at the most basic level. I think God talking to someone is just a sub conscience conversation with this built in "Big Brother".

It seems almost necessary for these rules of behavior to be genetic or else no government or society could ever control it's population. If I didn't control myself because something in my head tells me to(not literally a voice), I don't think it'd matter what laws there were. If laws didn't even exist I'd still interact for the most part identically to now, so what are these laws, and why do they seem so universal. I think that mechanism is what people call God. It would seem foolish if you believe in an actual God, to believe that God wouldn't encode his rules in us. How else could he judge those that never spoke or heard of him in the literal sense, and cast them to hell. Well, if his rules and behaviors  were encoded genetically there never will be an excuse, because we all know the difference between right and wrong, even the criminal knows the difference they just ignore it or rationalize through it(devil/ego).

That's a crude version, but essentially I believe God is hardwired, and when one "talks" to God, it is more or less in my view talking to your own built in guide. But even if there is a literal God It would make sense to put in that mechanism.





Vendaval -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/13/2007 12:14:07 AM)

Wow!  That is a very profound insight. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
That's a crude version, but essentially I believe God is hardwired, and when one "talks" to God, it is more or less in my view talking to your own built in guide. But even if there is a literal God It would make sense to put in that mechanism.



HeavansKeeper -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/13/2007 12:25:24 AM)

Edit: Removed.



MzMia -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/13/2007 4:39:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

God is the ultimate Dominant Entity... with one wicked sense of humor :)
 
I do not define God nor suppose to understand His/Her beingness.  I'm just glad He/She understands mine :)


Very well stated and simply put.
I agree 100%, isn't GOD good?
[sm=flying.gif][sm=flying.gif][sm=flying.gif][sm=flying.gif][sm=flying.gif]



meatcleaver -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/13/2007 5:36:12 AM)

God or gods are the product of psychosis. Human delusions, hallucinations and impaired perception of the world around us due to neurological function. It is becoming understood why people perceive intent in the world around them, it is a survival function and allows us to almost instantly perceive danger rather than our brain having to long windedly work out dangers. Perceiving intelligent intent (even in inanimate objects) in the world around us is probably just a side effect and a minor negative to the greater positive of our ability to survive because of the way our brain works.

I'm still waiting to experience god rather than foolishly accept he, she, it, intervenes obliquely in the world, showering some bad people with huge amounts of good luck and a lot of innocent people with an extraordinary amount of misery, poverty and cruel deaths. No doubt these latter people that suffer so badly are destined to be some sort of saints on the other side.

Nah. If god exists, he, she, it, is a cruel, vindictive psychopath, who delights in the misery and pain inflicted on his, her, its victims. I haven't seen not evidence to the contrary.
 
 
psy·cho·sis  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image]  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image]  /saɪˈkoʊ[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]sɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sahy-koh-sis] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ses  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image]  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image]  /-siz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-seez] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation.



1.
a mental disorder characterized by symptoms, such as delusions or hallucinations, that indicate impaired contact with reality.



2.
any severe form of mental disorder, as schizophrenia or paranoia.



RCdc -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/13/2007 8:46:12 AM)

quote:

I'm still waiting to experience god rather than foolishly accept he, she, it, intervenes obliquely in the world, showering some bad people with huge amounts of good luck and a lot of innocent people with an extraordinary amount of misery, poverty and cruel deaths. No doubt these latter people that suffer so badly are destined to be some sort of saints on the other side.

Nah. If god exists, he, she, it, is a cruel, vindictive psychopath, who delights in the misery and pain inflicted on his, her, its victims. I haven't seen not evidence to the contrary.

It's oh so simple and comfy to label a god/gods/goddess as cruel and vindictive and blame them on all the bad shit instead of accepting responsibility of things that happen around the world as an individual huh.  I find it bizarro that people think god is all bad when shit happens, and never view the good things and go - hey, maybe that was a god/gods/goddess.
Blame is easier than beauty anyday I guess, hey.
 
Peace
the.dark.



philosophy -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/13/2007 8:50:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

[ I find it bizarro that people think god is all bad when shit happens, and never view the good things and go - hey, maybe that was a god/gods/goddess.


.....and there are plenty who view things the other way round.....ie all that is good comes from God, all that is bad....is someone else's fault.
It seems to me that whenever God becomes more than a purely personal matter then things go wrong.



RCdc -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/13/2007 8:55:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

[ I find it bizarro that people think god is all bad when shit happens, and never view the good things and go - hey, maybe that was a god/gods/goddess.


.....and there are plenty who view things the other way round.....ie all that is good comes from God, all that is bad....is someone else's fault.
It seems to me that whenever God becomes more than a purely personal matter then things go wrong.

Ha - kudos on that one... [;)] 
I totally believe if shit goes right we should take some of the responsibility for that as well, but then - some might see that as being selfish and sinful instead of pious.
I fully see as religion being personal and god never being so - and when people mix the two around thats when things go wrong.
 
Peace
the.dark.



dragone -> RE: the nature of God; does it matter? (6/13/2007 9:59:46 AM)

Hello, again;
I find these topics so very entertaining; endless debating with no conclusion. To respond to your dialog.....One must in first case; believe, accept,  that there is an existence of a God, ...as to, if that God enity fulfills a purpose in one's life.....well, if one does not chose to take responsibility for one's actions, then indeed the concept of a God;  fulfills the unaccepting of responsibility of one's action. If one does evil, then it is the devil (a counter God) who possessed him/her; they back slide from God, and now can seek forgiveness of their transgressions; irregardless of the lasting pain they have inflicted upon another.

The concept of God is a money maker....for the government, it is a controlling device; granting the powers that be, the devine right of rulership over their lesser subjects. ie; "it is by the will of God."

The populace instructed to believe in the 'unkown quantum of God'; to pray for those who despitefully use you; to turn the other cheek, to forgive those who have sinned against you. It is the instruction of the church, soas to allow the perpetrators of crimes, the authorities over us; continue their murderous rape of their subjects; with impunity.

Acceptance or belief is a learned process; a programming of the mind; instilled by the parental caretakers, wanting their offspring to be 'good'. The church cleverily leaves it to the parents to guide and instruct, program the belief system into the virgin minds of the children; later to be honed to perfection by the church's teachings; enforced at home by the children's guides, the parents; serving to raise; happy and willing slaves.

God is a 'construct', for the purpose of control over a populace. Debating the existence or not, of God, is a useless, non-profitable excerise, a masturbation of the mind, useless expenditure of physical energy, and a waste of precious time; all; that could be used to more productive ends.

To consider God as a fulfillment of a mortal desire to believe in something, is mindless, because the God concept... fulfills all desires, for good, or evil, whatever cause the moment offers.

The unseen almighty power, the God; whose vicar on earth is the authorian ruler, the fascista, .....for the catholic peoples, he is the nazi Ratsinger.



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