Two Palestines?

Two Palestines? (Full Version)

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Level -> Two Palestines? (6/16/2007 7:43:01 PM)
U.S. plans end to Palestinian embargo By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 19 minutes ago Mahmoud Abbas got a major boost in his increasingly bellicose showdown with Hamas on Saturday, with a U.S. diplomat saying he expects a crippling embargo to be lifted once the Palestinian president appoints a government without the Islamic militants. But the money is unlikely to reach Gaza, now controlled by Hamas and cut off from the world. The new Cabinet is to be sworn in Sunday in the West Bank, where Fatah forces stormed government offices on Saturday, just three days after Hamas seized control of Gaza and Abbas dismantled the Hamas-Fatah coalition government in response. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Vendaval -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/16/2007 11:17:19 PM)
The fighting has temporarily stopped and the country is divided but the refugee crisis is only going to get worse with the embargo against Hamas.

Pandamonum -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/16/2007 11:24:48 PM)
Yes, I agree, however, this administration has not really put effort in. So, in order for the US to attempt to control or contain, this might be enough to start something better. Like cash. This is how Hamas won. By providing food, money, education etc. If Abbas recognizes Israel, half the battle is won. This is only if its recognized as an out. Hamas had it all, the only thing that was required was to come to the dinner table after you wash your hands and put on a clean shirt.

Politesub53 -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/17/2007 12:12:34 AM)
i am wondering what the effect of the recent war in Lebanon and Hammas successes have had on this. It seems to me they thought they could overthrow Fatah and take complete control of the Palestinian State. There is no way Israel would ever allow a party dedicated to the overthrow of Israel to form within its borders. The current situation has set any chance of peace back for at least a decade in my opinion. Sadly, as always, its the average man in the street who will have to deal with the repercussions.

mnottertail -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/17/2007 2:19:43 AM)
quote: There is no way Israel would ever allow a party dedicated to the overthrow of Israel to form within its borders. But they did, my friend. Well, nothing changes, they are still philistines after all these years. Problem in the old days, as well. Abram

Level -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/17/2007 4:06:56 AM)
quote: Vendaval wrote: The fighting has temporarily stopped and the country is divided but the refugee crisis is only going to get worse with the embargo against Hamas. I agree. There is already some panic setting in on the strip. quote: Pandamonum wrote: Yes, I agree, however, this administration has not really put effort in. So, in order for the US to attempt to control or contain, this might be enough to start something better. Like cash. This is how Hamas won. By providing food, money, education etc. If Abbas recognizes Israel, half the battle is won. This is only if its recognized as an out. Hamas had it all, the only thing that was required was to come to the dinner table after you wash your hands and put on a clean shirt. Again, I agree. Hamas is a bunch of fuck-ups, and I think it's going to cost dearly.

bbw2switch -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/17/2007 10:03:41 PM)
war in the middle east has existed for centuries. it is a shame that we as a human race, are not closer to resolving these issues than we were during the time of the roman empire.

Pandamonum -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/17/2007 10:28:00 PM)
I am reading a book on Lebanon by Robert Fisk. Its called Pity the Nation. Even back in the Seventies and Eighties in the refugee camps in Lebanon, there was the belief that they would return home. I think that, there are always going to be factions that want to destroy Israel. However, there are always going to be people who just want to go home.They are tired. Mothers are tired of losing their children who want to grow up to destroy and my own personal thinking is that the continuous shell shock has taken its toll. There is a widely held belief that the entire military of Israel is made of Zionists and Sabras. Its not. Israel contains many factions as well, and they are tired too. There were many that moved to Israel because they did not want to have to maintain their identiy to religion. I believe that it is also true that the Arab states, as well as Iran, have continuously used this issue as their whipping boy. In fact, forever and a day, Israel is still boycotted, and so are countries that are directly and indirectly dealing with them in any type of business. Syria is going to be a problem. Lebanon, still is a destroyed nation. The key is going to be giving these people, specifically those in Southern Lebanon in the refugee camps a home to go to. Access to the basic necessities. It may take 10 years, but it will indoctrinate those up and coming. I think that is a real issue as well.

meatcleaver -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/17/2007 11:41:34 PM)
The problem is, if the Palestinians are allowed to return home to peacefully exist, they will destroy Israel because Israel wants to be a culturally and ethnically pure state, this is why they needed to ethnically cleanse Israel in the first place. If any other state wanted to be an ethnically and culturally pure state then the USA and the west would be calling it what it is, a fascist state. There are already several types of citizen in Israel and the Israeli Arabs (not refugees or the Orwellian named 'absent present') are not trusted and second class citizens, though far above the occupied refugees. It is western guilt about the holocauset as to why the west supports a fascist state in the middle east, it is also a reliable foot hold for the US and the Palestinians paying the price is just a little sacrifice they have to put up with. They are dirty untrustworthy Arabs any way and muslim to boot (we'll forget about the Christian ones). As for problem states in the middle east, there has only ever been two, firt the British and now the USA. If the countries in the middle east were allowed to run their own affairs there would have been pressure on them to find a solution to the whole sorry problem. That wouldn't have meant the destruction of Israel because Israel has always been too dtrong to be destroyed by the Arabs, no matter what myth they like to spread but it probably would have meant that Israel would have had to make compromises for lasting peace, unlike now where they have carte blanche from the USA to do what they want.

popeye1250 -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/17/2007 11:46:44 PM)
As a U.S. Taxpayer I'd prefer that my govt. stay out of this. I don't believe in foreign aid.

Level -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/18/2007 2:37:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The problem is, if the Palestinians are allowed to return home to peacefully exist, they will destroy Israel because Israel wants to be a culturally and ethnically pure state, this is why they needed to ethnically cleanse Israel in the first place. If any other state wanted to be an ethnically and culturally pure state then the USA and the west would be calling it what it is, a fascist state. There are already several types of citizen in Israel and the Israeli Arabs (not refugees or the Orwellian named 'absent present') are not trusted and second class citizens, though far above the occupied refugees. It is western guilt about the holocauset as to why the west supports a fascist state in the middle east, it is also a reliable foot hold for the US and the Palestinians paying the price is just a little sacrifice they have to put up with. They are dirty untrustworthy Arabs any way and muslim to boot (we'll forget about the Christian ones). As for problem states in the middle east, there has only ever been two, firt the British and now the USA. If the countries in the middle east were allowed to run their own affairs there would have been pressure on them to find a solution to the whole sorry problem. That wouldn't have meant the destruction of Israel because Israel has always been too dtrong to be destroyed by the Arabs, no matter what myth they like to spread but it probably would have meant that Israel would have had to make compromises for lasting peace, unlike now where they have carte blanche from the USA to do what they want. MC, the primary reason Arabs are treated second-class is due to the threat of violence the Israelis fear from them.

meatcleaver -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/18/2007 3:41:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The problem is, if the Palestinians are allowed to return home to peacefully exist, they will destroy Israel because Israel wants to be a culturally and ethnically pure state, this is why they needed to ethnically cleanse Israel in the first place. If any other state wanted to be an ethnically and culturally pure state then the USA and the west would be calling it what it is, a fascist state. There are already several types of citizen in Israel and the Israeli Arabs (not refugees or the Orwellian named 'absent present') are not trusted and second class citizens, though far above the occupied refugees. It is western guilt about the holocauset as to why the west supports a fascist state in the middle east, it is also a reliable foot hold for the US and the Palestinians paying the price is just a little sacrifice they have to put up with. They are dirty untrustworthy Arabs any way and muslim to boot (we'll forget about the Christian ones). As for problem states in the middle east, there has only ever been two, firt the British and now the USA. If the countries in the middle east were allowed to run their own affairs there would have been pressure on them to find a solution to the whole sorry problem. That wouldn't have meant the destruction of Israel because Israel has always been too dtrong to be destroyed by the Arabs, no matter what myth they like to spread but it probably would have meant that Israel would have had to make compromises for lasting peace, unlike now where they have carte blanche from the USA to do what they want. MC, the primary reason Arabs are treated second-class is due to the threat of violence the Israelis fear from them. Maybe Palestinian violence and haterd of Israel is a result of the initial Israeli violence and the illegal seizure of land? The west for some reason always accepts Israeli instigated violence and human rights crimes as self defence, even when that self defence involves internationally illegal collective punishment, indiscriminate assassinations which result in the murder of women and children. The irony is that the USA riles against similar behaviour of the Iraqi insurgents and Taliban but are willfully blind when a client state indulges in the same behaviour. Not only blind but sanctions wars it sees as being in its own interests, ie the '67 war. Which was not about Israel defending itself but a pre-emptive strike to statch land for the zionist ambition of a greater Israel. Ironically it is well documented from the beginning of Israel that the zionists saw the local Arabs as untermensch.

Politesub53 -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/18/2007 4:58:12 AM)
MC i know you and i have disagreed about Britains role in all this. However you make some great points. The fact Israel wants peace yet as recent as 2004 introduced a song about a Zionist homeland, as the National Antehm, was very anagonistic to say the least. One fifth of Israels population is Arabic and surely the official Flag and Anthem need to recognise that fact in some way. I agree about America turning a blind eye to certain client states, although that applies to every nation on the planet when it suits them. [;)]

Pandamonum -> RE: Two Palestines? (6/18/2007 7:08:04 AM)
meatcleaver, I disagree with some of your points. I will say that yes, the two major problem states from the get go are the British and the United States and I would like to include 4 others, France, Germany, Italy, and the Soviet Union. The Great Game was played out by Russia and England. The countless proxy wars between the Soviet Union and the United States are another prime example. Israel is diverse, and while the Zionists are key, there are also Israelis that don't like Israelis. Those that came from Poland are not fond of those that came from............Germany. One, if a Palestinian crosses the border dressed as a Rabbi and is on foot, gets picked up by a family and blows up the vehicle then I'm seeing some trust issues. The United States does not feel guilty in the least, they did not during the war, they do not now and the Wahhabi Lobby is just as powerful as the Jewish one. They are not about racial and ethnic cleansing. Yes, Israel is a foothold, however, so is Saudi Arabia which we armed. It was widely believed for some time that Israel had the better equipment, and they still do. However, the other countries over time have become heavily armed. The gas that was used against the Iranians in the Iraq-Iran war, that was eerily like the one used to gas the Jews, was purchased from Germany. Osirack, the French built nuclear facility in Iraq was bombed in June 1981, by the Israelis 2 months before it was to go hot. My point is here, that weapons are purchased by other countries, hell, in 1984 the Center for Disease from the US was only to happy to send swabs to Saddam with everything up to the Bubonic plague. The United States knowingly, willingly, consciuosly used the Wahhabi doctrine to create a jihad with the Soviet Union. By way of Saudi Arabia into Pakistan. The madrassas openly teach anti Israel propaganda. It is ok to kill Israeli's and Shiite Muslims and Americans. By 1994, we were still using it by sending textbooks to Afghanistan created by a professor at the University of Kansas or Nebraska, I can look up the name if you want, created textbooks in Afghanistan for children that learned how to add and subtract by using AK 47's and dead soldiers. Now, I'm not saying Isreal does no wrong, in fact they make some unwise choices. Do not think that it is going to hem and haw when it comes to protecting itself.

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