RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:30:13 PM)

Don't look at me. *I* believe that *IF* we are Free, then our rights to Our Property are ABSOLUTE.

Therefore, a Mother's Right to do with her PROPERTY, Her CHILD, is also Absolute.




philosophy -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:37:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

I know rape is a terrible thing.


i'm not sure you've been through enough in your life if you really feel like that. 


Emphasis mine.

Try rereading it a few times. That wording comes across fairly wrong, to me. One implication in particular stood out that I don't think you mean, but which I know some people who might have meant. On an online forum, it is not easy to know which is the case. I would suggest clarifying whether you feel there is more she "needs" to go through, because that's how it parses for me.

And I don't think the bit that is implied as "missing" necessarily is, nor that it should be added if it is.



...fair point Aswad......to clarify, i generally feel that life experiences tend to form a character in one of two mai ways...cynicism or forgiveness. i think simplysubmissive comes across as an observer in this case, i'm not sure if she has really got to grips with the many and various elements of the abortion debate. i don't know for sure what her life experiences ave been, but volunteering with battered women for a while may expose her to a few viewpoints that may change her absolute stance........



Level -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:40:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Rape, incest, and life-threatening pregnacies make up at most 7% of abortions;
that leaves 93%, from millions of abortions, that were done for convience.


How many who have abortions, fill out the "why I am doing this" forms?



That was my question. 

Where exactly do the anti-abortion crowd get their information?

Sinergy

p.s.  Although, if 7% of abortions are done for medical necessity, etc., how does that correlate with the 100% of all abortions should be outlawed? 

p.p.s.  Are those 7% not covered under the technical definition of murder as bandied about by the anti-abortionists?

p.p.p.s. We have questions.

p.p.p.p.s.  We want answers.

Sinergy


There certainly are situations where abortions are needed, to save the mother's life is a good example. I don't envy anyone that finds themselves in such hardship.
 

"According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the research arm of the nation’s leading abortion provider, Planned Parenthood:

At current rates, an estimated 43 percent of American women will have at least one abortion by the age of 45.

  • Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women.
  • Fifty-two percent of U.S. women having abortions are younger than 25 years old.
  • About 13,000 abortions each year are attributed to rape and incest—representing 1 percent of all abortions.3 "






      Social Reasons (given as primary reason)


          - Feels unready for responsibility
      21%

          - Feels she can't afford baby
      21%

          - Concern for how baby would change her life
      16%

          - Relationship problem
      12%

          - Feels she isn't mature enough
      11%

          - Has all the children she wants
      8%

          - Other reasons
      4-5%




        TOTAL:
      93%


      "Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)


          - Mother's Health
      3%

          - Baby may have health problem
      3%

          - Rape or Incest
      1%




       
      TOTAL:



      7%



      Source:  Aida Torres and J.D. Forrest, "Why Do Women Have Abortions?"
      Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 20 No. 4 (July/August 1988) p. 170.
       
      According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, there has been nearly 40,000,000 abortions in the United States from 1973 through 1998. If the above cited statistics are correct, that means over 37,000,000 were for "convience".
      -------------------
      Week 3

      At this point, the blastocyst, or developing embryo, is looking for a spot to implant in the uterus.  Early formation of the central nervous system, backbone, and spinal column has begun.  The gastrointestinal system has also begun to develop with the kidneys, liver, and intestines forming.  The heart has begun to form. 

      Week 5

      The embryo’s tiny heart begins to beat by day twenty-one.  The brain has developed into 5 areas and some cranial nerves are visible.  Arm and leg buds are visible and the formation of the eyes, lips, and nose has begun.  The spinal cord grows faster than the rest of the body giving a tail like appearance which disappears as the embryo continues to grow.  The placenta begins to provide nourishment for the embryo.   

      Week 7

      Major organs have all begun to form.  The embryo has developed its own blood type, unique from the mother’s.  Hair follicles and nipples form and knees and elbows are visible.  Facial features are also observable.  The eyes have a retina and lens.  The major muscle system is developed and the embryo is able to move.

      Weeks 9-12

      The heart is almost completely developed and the heart rate can be heard on a Doppler machine at the doctor’s office.  Most major organs and tissues have developed and red blood cells are now produced in the liver.  The face is well formed and the eyes are almost fully developed.  The eyelids will close and not reopen until the 28th week.  Arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, and toes are fully formed.  Nails and earlobes start to form and tooth buds develop in the gums.  Fetus can make a fist with its finger.  Testosterone (male sex hormone) is produced by the testes in male fetus. 

      And so on. For anyone wishing to see images of the fetal development spoken about above, here are a couple of many links:  http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml   or http://www.realalternatives.org/pregnant/fetaldevelopment.htm






      • Level -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:41:17 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

      Ack! I didn't realize your posts were with regards to the sterlization bit. My apologies; I took this out of context.

      kiyari- Your post was a good one. I thought you were making it out about something else; I misunderstood your context. My apologies.

      (Edit: To elaborate, I thought kyari's post used "giving up future reproductive rights" as "illegalizing abortion". It actually meant, as I now believe, "to have one fixed so prevent future conception"? I read this without looking back for context, so I took it incorrectly.)


      No problem. [:D]



      philosophy -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:42:30 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Level


      Rape, incest, and life-threatening pregnacies make up at most 7% of abortions; that leaves 93%, from millions of abortions, that were done for convience.


      ...purely out of curiosity Level, do you have a source for that stat?

      [edit] oops, see you already provided that, ta



      Sinergy -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:45:19 PM)

      Thank you for providing the source for the statistics (question 1)

      The other questions were:

      p.s.  Although, if 7% of abortions are done for medical necessity, etc., how does that correlate with the 100% of all abortions should be outlawed? 

      p.p.s.  Are those 7% not covered under the technical definition of murder as bandied about by the anti-abortionists?

      Sinergy



      Level -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:48:53 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Sinergy

      p.s.  Although, if 7% of abortions are done for medical necessity, etc., how does that correlate with the 100% of all abortions should be outlawed? 

      You would need to ask someone that believe 100% of all abortions should be banned.

      p.p.s.  Are those 7% not covered under the technical definition of murder as bandied about by the anti-abortionists?

      Ascribing one belief to everyone that is pro-life would be incorrect, like thinking everyone from California believes the same thing would be.

      p.p.p.s. We have questions.

      I have chewing gum.

      p.p.p.p.s.  We want answers.

      Life is full of disappointments, right? [:D]

      Sinergy



      Sinergy -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:53:40 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Level

      Life is full of disappointments, right? [:D]



      Not my life.

      Sinergy 

      p.s.  Life is what the one living it makes it.



      Level -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:54:21 PM)

      phil and Sinergy, you're both welcome. I don't pretend to have all the answers, guys, and as I said in a post long ago, I do not envy anyone facing the decision of whether or not to have an abortion. I do believe most abortions are morally wrong, but I don't turn my nose up to those that believe differently. I think society and individuals should fight like hell to make abortions unneeded.



      Level -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:55:33 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Sinergy

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Level

      Life is full of disappointments, right? [:D]



      Not my life.

      Sinergy 

      p.s.  Life is what the one living it makes it.


      Actually, I couldn't agree more. All we need is the chance at that life, as well.



      Sinergy -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 5:59:39 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Level

      I think society and individuals should fight like hell to make abortions unneeded.



      I agree with you, Level.

      But it is like "blue laws."  Throwing prostitutes in prison will not end prostitution.

      It is simply "blaming the victim" and not addressing the societal causes which make some pregnant women believe that their only way out is getting an abortion.

      Unfortunately, a lot of the anti-abortion rhetoric, if you mad-lib many of the words, ends up sounding like Falwell's rhetoric about extramarital affairs, or that homophobe priest in Colorado ranting about homosexuals while paying homosexual prostitutes.

      To whit:  "We need to make this illegal so I wont do it."

      Sinergy



      slavegirljoy -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 6:00:34 PM)

      Good Point!  And, when i sent them an email i mentioned that there wasn't a date on the page.  i received a reply that stated the page went up on Sunday, June 18th.  wow!  that just happened to be Father's Day.  What a coincidence.
      ____________
      slave joy
      Owned property of Master David
       
      "..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
      -- F. Nietzsche 
      quote:

      ORIGINAL: mypath2lvgD

      I noticed that they didn't bother to date this plea...with no noted start or end date to this plea, I would say that they can run the scam as long as they want and still find someone to give them more money.



      farglebargle -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 6:02:41 PM)

      AND if you fucking make it illegal, that won't stop shit.

      In FACT. To prove that point, HERE IS A MANUAL FOR ABORTION.

      http://web.archive.org/web/20060226201119/http://mollysavestheday.blogspot.com/

      Should it become necessary, people of good conscience will resist, and provide the services anyway.




      nightphoenix -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 6:37:14 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: kittinSol

      You are avoiding my point. Abortion is the termination of a life that isn't fully formed.


      Neither is a 2 year old fully formed, it's just further along than a human being 2 years earlier in development.

      Even early in the womb though, the human being is capable of feeling sensation, pain, etc.



      slavegirljoy -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 6:53:48 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: simplyangelic1

      Where is the contact info at?
       
       
      There is no contact information.  You can only click on their email link to send them a message.  This is what they have stated on their web page.

      "Please do not attempt to contact us. We have registered and hosted this site through a company that allows for anonymity in that proces, and are having them handle our donations as well. They will not tell you our names, because they don't know them. They don't know how to contact us."


      "It's not that we're poor, we just don't have the stability that we think having a baby necessitates."

      "We're both from pretty good stock, well educated and intelligent."

      "We've crunched some numbers, and we believe that, to really set ourselves up in a good environemnt for the baby, we need $50,000. That'll give us the down payment on a decent house, get us a car that runs reliably, allow us to save away a little for the baby's college fund, cover any medical bills (she's uninsured), and give us a little buffer while she's not working."

      "If we can't raise the $50,000 in the next 3 months, we'll have to choose abortion."

      They will have to choose abortion, if they don't get the money to buy a decent house, a reliable car, start a college fund and cover medical bills. 
       
      Lots of parents do just fine having a baby without all that.  i managed to have 2 babies without having a house (although i had a good apartment), and i have rarely ever had a reliable car (because i choose to use alternative modes of transportation as much as i possibly can), and a college fund is something i wish i had for my own use. 
       
      All i can do is shake my head at this.  i would be concerned about what kind of parents they would be, if they did have the baby.
       
      Like i've said, this has nothing to do with pro-choice or pro-life.  It's just about a clever way to try to get easy money from strangers over the Internet.

      ____________
      slave joy
      Owned property of Master David
       
      "..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
      -- F. Nietzsche



      SimplySubmissive -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 6:54:22 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: philosophy

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Aswad

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: philosophy

      quote:

      I know rape is a terrible thing.


      i'm not sure you've been through enough in your life if you really feel like that. 


      Emphasis mine.

      Try rereading it a few times. That wording comes across fairly wrong, to me. One implication in particular stood out that I don't think you mean, but which I know some people who might have meant. On an online forum, it is not easy to know which is the case. I would suggest clarifying whether you feel there is more she "needs" to go through, because that's how it parses for me.

      And I don't think the bit that is implied as "missing" necessarily is, nor that it should be added if it is.



      ...fair point Aswad......to clarify, i generally feel that life experiences tend to form a character in one of two mai ways...cynicism or forgiveness. i think simplysubmissive comes across as an observer in this case, i'm not sure if she has really got to grips with the many and various elements of the abortion debate. i don't know for sure what her life experiences ave been, but volunteering with battered women for a while may expose her to a few viewpoints that may change her absolute stance........


      Ok just to share a small bit of my experiences... I have been in shelters. As a teen, with my mother and 2 young sibs I stayed in one for 2 weeks, they stayed another 2 weeks, as I took my finals for the end of my freshman year, and stayed with a friend.  As an adult, I spent time there numorous times, volunteering and helping. I have helped people get there, I have helped people leave there. I have helped transition families. I do a lot of social services  work in my job. The program I work for focuses on the whole family, not just the children I teach.
      I have been exposed to many of these issues that you speak of. I have seen all sides. In my own family, we have dealt with these issues. I am not just blindly observing, and making judgements out of thin air.
      People come out of life experiences with many different opinions and feelings. I have never been militant about my feelings, I don't relate to the pro-lifers, or the pro-choice groups. Probably because I have seen so much and been through so much (only a tiny bit I have shared tonight) that my focus has become more on prevention. I have never judged anyone who has made choices other than those I would chose for myself. I know how I feel. The fact is, there is no perfect solution. I do what  I can in my small part of the world.



      nightphoenix -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 6:55:23 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Sinergy

      Thank you for providing the source for the statistics (question 1)

      The other questions were:

      p.s.  Although, if 7% of abortions are done for medical necessity, etc., how does that correlate with the 100% of all abortions should be outlawed? 


      As far as I know, that's why the word "exception" exists...that medical necessity be the exception.

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Sinergy

      p.p.s.  Are those 7% not covered under the technical definition of murder as bandied about by the anti-abortionists?

      Sinergy


      It would still qualify as murder as much as the other 93%...but for a reason that some anti-abortionists would consider justified, and so are willing to give a little ground.

      Not sure why those questions would be so hard to answer.



      sublimelysensual -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 7:45:09 PM)

       
      quote:

      Original : Aswad

      It's been beaten to death elsewhere that (a) it isn't fully voluntary, and (b) it doesn't impair that badly.

      I've known "crackheads", as you call them, who were decent and intelligent people.


      I use the term crackheads as it's the term used in the post that started this conversation. I've never said that there were not decent, intelligent people who are drug addicted, simply that while they're using the drugs actively, imo, yes, functioning is impaired. To say someone can be a functional abuser is very true, but to say that a functional abuser is as rational or cognitively capable as one not using, I think, is misleading, to say the least.
       
      quote:

        And the difference between snorting cocaine in Hollywood, and smoking it as crack elsewhere, is social status. If you choose to be a bit more statistics-minded about it, it's called "substance abuse" or "cocaine addiction" when white people do it, and "being a crackhead" when black people do it ... which is silly, as it's the same drug.


      I don't care is someone is black, purple, blue, green, white, whatever..I don't care if they're addicted to coke, crack, heroin, meth..if someone is addicted, in my opinion, they should not be having children, period. I also never stated that any user shouldn't be having children, addicted users should not. Personally speaking, I wouldn't want my child around anyone using drugs for other than medical reasons, and do not think any other child should be either, but again, just my opinion.
       
      quote:

      Just keep them clean until the baby is out.
       
       
      As for keeping a mother "clean" until the baby pops out..wonderful..then what? The baby lives with an active substance abuser? As wonderful as social services, etc, are, the system doesn't always work. I just don't agree with putting a child through that.
       
      Anyway, as I told luci, I've enjoyed the back and forth, always good to use the noggin...
       
      -a



      domiguy -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 7:56:58 PM)

      I am pro choice and loving it baby!!!



      Aswad -> RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. (6/19/2007 8:37:03 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

      You can come up with all the scenarios you wish but the overwhelming number of abortions are purely for the convenience of the parents or parent. The parents or parent do not want to deal with a life they created so the kill it.


      You're not contradicting anything I said. So reread the posts. I'm not about to repeat them.



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