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RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/7/2005 5:20:45 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline 		First off, that was a great analysis by mernbeth - Couldn't have said it better myself.

I voted for Bush for purely selfish reasons - I wanna see the death tax completely abolished. And don't believe in redistribution of wealth. But as I said before in a previous post, I think they've tricked us in this regard.


quote:

Still, I have to say I sense a shift in momentum. I've been hearing too many complaints about hypocrisy lately, even among ordinary people. That's new, and I think it's bad news for the GOP.

I think it's tough to tell what the future may bring. I do know that Tom Tamcreado from Colorado has pretty much announced that he's going to make a run for the nomination in 2008. With his main ambition being to bring the illegal immigration issue to the forefront of the American people.


It could get very interesting.



- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 6/7/2005 5:23:31 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/7/2005 10:44:00 PM   
Lepidoptera


Posts: 161
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline 		Well, this is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard.

quote:



ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.


Well, duh, but I'm afraid that a sense of entitlement is a quality attributed to the rich conservatives, not the poor.
quote:


ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc.; but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.

I'm sorry, but again you seem to be addressing conservatives, some of the biggest proponents of censorship. Conservatives are the reason that the word "fuck" can't be heard on television before 1 am. They are the reason that nudity has become sinful instead of natural, in a world where Japanese children's cartoons contain naked breasts. They are the reasons you can't say the word "dildo" on the radio. (And, dammit, it's the reason that I can't understand a thing some of the comedians on Comedy Central are saying, because their routine has been reduced to a solid bleep.)
quote:



ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.


ARTICLE III 1/2: You do not have the right to sell a product that you know to kill people with out telling them it could kill them. Should companies be allowed to sell drugs that are advertised as youth restoration and not warn people that they are arsenic pills, a deadly poison?

quote:


ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.

Do you then suggest that it will be unsuccessful merely because you deem welfare unsuccessful? Canada seems to have a very successful public healthcare system. Are you suggesting that the US cannot manage it? And how far are you willing to deny health care? Is not life a basic right? Then what do you tell a child with appendicitis that he is going to die because his mother does not have the money to operate on him? Will you leave American girls to the same fate as African girls who become pregnant too young, and deny them a C-section? Because in Africa they cannot afford it, and the girl's body tries to give birth through her narrow hips, but the pressure is too great and the baby dies- and the lack of blood flow to her internal flesh causes it to die, and form a hole called a fistula. This fistula causes urine and feces to constantly leak out of her vagina. In Africa, for many it's a fate worse than death.

quote:


ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.


ARTICLE VI 1/2: The law is not responsible for enacting out the revenge you seek after someone hurts you or someone you love. The law has the responsibility to protect you, not to hurt others for you just because you desire it. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, you should be dealt with to prevent it happening again. Your right to life does not cease to exist merely because your victim wishes it to be so.

quote:


ARTICLE VII: You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.

ARTICLE VII 1/2: The law is not responsible for enacting out the revenge you seek after someone takes your stuff. The law has the responsibility to protect your property, not to hurt others for taking it. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, you should be dealt with to prevent it happening again. Your right to pursue happiness does not cease to exist merely because another wishes it to be so.

quote:


ARTICLE XI: You do not have the right to change our country's history or heritage. This country was founded on the belief in one true God. And yet, you are given the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all; with no fear of persecution. The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!!!!

ARTICLE XI 1/2: This country was not founded on the belief in one true God. As Thomas Jefferson said, "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." Each of our founders had their own beliefs. As you may know, the foundation of our country was not pure. Our founders wanted to eliminate slavery, but in order to get the Constitution accepted, they conceded the point. Later, we remedied this mistake. Surely you do not believe the founding fathers supported anything but a secular government? To suggest that they would create a theocracy, after they so clearly despised the one they had come from, is ridiculous.



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/7/2005 11:05:45 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, basically I agree with Lepidoptera that this is a comfy manifesto for disgruntled right-wingers. As I said before, it doesn't address any of the real problems of this country; in fact it would only perpetuate many of them--such as corporate irresponsibility.

Again, if you want a real agenda for the future, look at the Greens. Libertarianism has no answers for the world of the 21st century.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/7/2005 11:06:06 PM >

(in reply to Lepidoptera)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/8/2005 8:17:56 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Wow - The spin doctoring is making me dizzy! Amazing to see agreement to the principle;
quote:

ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended.
but somehow spinning it to point to right wing censorship.
quote:

Lepidoptera: you seem to be addressing conservatives, some of the biggest proponents of censorship


I wonder, considering Lepidoptera's Article VII 1/2; does he have locks on his doors? Do you leave you keys in the car? It's another's pursuit of happiness that they want to take these things from you. Your locks are preventing that from happening. How evil you are! Please attempt to be a citizen in Canada, your utopian paradise

There isn't a reference to a "one true God" in the document, it just provides for the ability to believe in anything you choose to believe.


To L&M: This attitude is exactly why no left or even centralist democrat can ever win an election, pragmatic agreement is not possible. The source is the point of disagreement not the message.

And as a point of reference, this came from a DEMOCRATIC Georgia State Representative,Michael Kaye. NOT a rich right wing conservative.

L&M, your point about the environment and the issues not addressed my Mr. Kaye's document are well taken. Consider that the US Declaration of Independence in 1776 was almost not adopted because representatives from the New England states felt that is should include off-shore fishing rights. Jefferson had to compromise on the issue of slavery in order for the southern states to agree. One hundred years later more Americans died than ever have since fighting each other in the Civil War.

Here's a hypothetical to consider....

The US will be destroyed by a comet on July 1st. It's a "neutron" comet, destroying just the US land mass, but leaving the rest of the world, and all other land masses intact. Every other country's government is still functioning exactly as they do today. Excluding the issue of population growth all the current immigration laws for these other countries exist exactly as they do today. Which country will grant you citizenship? Which country do you apply to reside? Will they take you? Will you be living better or worse than you do now?

(in reply to Lepidoptera)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/8/2005 9:26:34 AM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Wow - The spin doctoring is making me dizzy! Amazing to see agreement to the principle


well... I have to agree with you. After all, who could disagree with the idea that "You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other form of wealth.." I certainly do not have these things. But the first article is a bit of a straw man because I wonder if anyone claims they have such a right.

The second article, "You do not have the right to never be offended", also seems obvious. Who here is in favor of censorship?

The third article, "You do not have the right to be free from harm", I take exception to. We do have the right to be free from the harmful actions of others. That is why we have police, that is why we have pollution laws, or laws against tainted food. But the examples the Bill cites only concern an individual accepting responsibility for his own actions - and who can argue against that?

The fourth article, "You do not have the right to free food and housing", is questionable. I would have to study the laws. But the assertion "we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes" is simply political rant. And like a religious rant, if it is part of your belief system, well.... more power to you. But please don't include me in your personal beliefs.

The fifth article, "You do not have the right to free health care" is true. Health care is not a right in this country. Health care is considered to be a commodity, and if you can't afford it.... tough noogies. Personally I think this is a mistake. The U.S. really should increase access to prenatal and infant care - after all, babies can not afford to pay for the health care they need.

The sixth article, "You do not have the right to physically harm other people" is true.
Who would argue against it? But it is illogical to then suggest that "the rest of us" favor capital punishment - it just doesn't follow. And as above, please don't group me in with your personal political beliefs.

The seventh article, "You do not have the right to the possessions of others" is also true. But who would argue against it?

The eighth article, "You do not have the right to a job", is true. Its not a right in the U.S.

The ninth article, " You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to PURSUE happiness", seems to be a just plain silly distinction. And tacking on the suggestion that the Bill of Rights eliminates the needs for any laws extending and safeguarding the rights of Americans is disingenuous.

The tenth article, "This is an English speaking country.... Learn it or go back to wherever you came from!", is the sort of xenophobic crap that I want no part of.

The last article, "This country was founded on the belief in one true God" is simply wrong. I know if might play well to the author's consituency but that doesn't make it true.

Now, onto the discussion of immigration. Lots of Americans dislike immigrants, legal or illegal. They just don't like foreignors. And the thought of a large group of them speaking a foreign language gives these people the willies. This is true today, it was true 100 years ago and it was true 200 years ago. But guess what, America assimilated their children and everyone has prospered (although it was slow coming to those involuntarily brought to these shores".

Immigration has always benefitted the United States. It still does. Do Americans react to large waves of immigrants with fear and anger? Historically yes. Is the current concern over illegal immigration part of that history? mmmm...... it may be.

Personally, I would like to see the gates of immigration opened wider.

< Message edited by onceburned -- 6/8/2005 9:30:21 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/8/2005 9:47:08 AM   
Youtalkingtome


Posts: 112
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline 		Mercnbeth,
I think you may be Libertarians.
I tend to vote for the Libertarian or tax payers party or a Rep. like Alan Keys.
It is no use even talking with some of these people like LordandMaster and Lepidoptera.
The Green party sounds real good until you know how they want to emplament their agenda.
The Green party is really the new American Communist party.
No personal rights,no personal property rights,very little business.
I will qoute what the now Governer on Maine has said in the past.
He thought that the U.N. Biodiversity treaty was a good thing for the country and for the state of Maine.This was when he was a Congressmen.
And he is very anti-business.When we tried to get a casino in southern Maine on Indian land last year he said that the Indians should go back to basket weaving.
Last week the Indians tried for a raceino in eastern Maine he said that is is not a sustainable business.
The Greens like using the word sustainable.
A sustainable forest is one where no one has paper and everyone is self employed making baskets and other novelties.Some wooden furnature and arts and crafts.
The Greens are correct in a sence that we should not be shipping jobs out of the country.But they don't want jobs in the country either.
The economy could be fixed with a stroke of a pen.
Under the war powers act the President could sign a directive under national security to state that if it is to be sold here it needs to be made here not just assembled here.
Like was done just before and during WW2.
But this won't happen.
Excuse the bad spelling.I need to go.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/8/2005 10:35:05 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		This is the kind of soundbite reductionism that is killing serious political discussion in this country.

A propos of nothing, I also wonder why this "Bill of Non-Rights" is so aggressive. Too many friggin' exclamation points. Why should a political document be aggressive? It's a sign that something is wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome

The Green party is really the new American Communist party.


(in reply to Youtalkingtome)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/8/2005 12:30:43 PM   
Lepidoptera


Posts: 161
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline 		Dear "Youtalkingtome",

You have obviously never heard of a concept called the "paragraph." It was developed so that people are more easily able to communicate. Listing many sentences and clauses disquised to look like sentences without connecting them in any way may seem acceptable to you, but it is not to me.

Also, I would appreciate it if you supported some of your statements. For instance, when you say "It is no use even talking with some of these people like LordandMaster and Lepidoptera," I would be interested to know why you believe this. Are you merely to afraid to argue with me? Personally, I consider myself easy to talk to. I have several Libertarian and Republican friends (4) and we seem to talk about politics just fine.

Sincerely,
Lepidoptera

(in reply to Youtalkingtome)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/8/2005 8:57:50 PM   
Youtalkingtome


Posts: 112
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline 		Lepidoptera,
I was and I am always in a hurry when on the internet.I have more important things to do than worry about grammer and spelling.

I was headed out the door for work so I can pay more taxes.
I work 7 days a week one way or another.If I am not working to make money then I am working to save money.
What I meant was it would be ok to discuss BDSM but a waste of time to discuss politics with people that have this mentality.It would be a waste of time.I don't know what you know and you don't know what I know but I know the mentality.
We would not agree on much and you won't change my mind and I won't change your mind.So what would be the point??
As I said before I am in the 4.5 % of informed voters.
If you worked as much as I do and had as slow of a internet connection you wouldn't even bother turning on the computer.
I can't afford a satalite internet connection and the phone lines suck and they won't replace them because the law says all they have to have is voice worthy lines even if they are a internet provider.
Anymore questions???

(in reply to Lepidoptera)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/8/2005 9:28:15 PM   
Youtalkingtome


Posts: 112
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

This is the kind of soundbite reductionism that is killing serious political discussion in this country.

A propos of nothing, I also wonder why this "Bill of Non-Rights" is so aggressive. Too many friggin' exclamation points. Why should a political document be aggressive? It's a sign that something is wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome

The Green party is really the new American Communist party.

Have you ever watched the third party debates on television????
Not many have because of the liberal media and control by the two parties in power.
They don't want the public to have serious debates that include real solutions.
The cat would be out of the bag that the two parties in power are not all that different.
They just have two different ways of getting to the same place.
Last fall I shook hands with a woman running for state rep. as a candidate for the socilaist party.. I told her that I would never vote for her but I did admire her for being honest about what she stood for unlike the two parties in power.
And the Green party is not honest with the people about what they stand for.
My point being that I don't think that their are all that many communists in this country but they would vote for a communist party because of deception.
I have the same opinion with liberals.If you take out the political correctness and say liberal = socalist because that is what liberalism is in modern politics.Not that many people would want to be called a socialist Because it is anti- American!!
That is why most liberal Dem. politicions won't even say they are liberal but vote that way almost all the time.
I don't have anything to debate because I am in the 4.5% of informed voters as I said before.Debates are for uninformed people to exchange ideas and come to a compramise.
When their is nothing to compramise all that has to be done is follow the constitution and bill of rights.If people don't like the way the U.S. was then they should have moved to another country instead of destroying her.
As far as debates.
Had you ever heard of the biodaversity treaty before I talked about it on here???
I doubt it or you would have talked about it after I did.


< Message edited by Youtalkingtome -- 6/8/2005 9:30:32 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/8/2005 10:19:59 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		OK, Mr. "I'm in the 4.5% of informed voters," I'm going to call your bluff:

What does the Green Party really stand for that they're not being honest about?

And how do YOU, as opposed to everyone else, happen to know this? Is there some secret Green Party conspiracy that you happen to know about and no one else does?

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome

And the Green party is not honest with the people about what they stand for.

(in reply to Youtalkingtome)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/9/2005 7:27:09 AM   
Youtalkingtome


Posts: 112
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

OK, Mr. "I'm in the 4.5% of informed voters," I'm going to call your bluff:

What does the Green Party really stand for that they're not being honest about?

And how do YOU, as opposed to everyone else, happen to know this? Is there some secret Green Party conspiracy that you happen to know about and no one else does?

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome

And the Green party is not honest with the people about what they stand for.

I already said what they are not honest about!!!
The only conspiracy is that they are not honest with people about what they stand for and how they will achieve their goals.
I am surprised that the then head or mouth piece for the Green party in the 90s in this state of Maine even lived through the 90s.
You just don't get it!!!!!!!!!
If I trusted you I would give you my phone # and you could call me and I would explain it over a few hours.Hell I would even invite you to my house and introduce you to people so you could see for yourself what they are about.
But you can't be trusted.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/9/2005 10:19:52 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		And that's the end of this conversation. If you can't say what you mean in an open forum, it means you don't have anything to say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome

If I trusted you I would give you my phone # and you could call me and I would explain it over a few hours.Hell I would even invite you to my house and introduce you to people so you could see for yourself what they are about.
But you can't be trusted.


(in reply to Youtalkingtome)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/9/2005 1:41:21 PM   
Lepidoptera


Posts: 161
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome

Lepidoptera,
I was and I am always in a hurry when on the internet.I have more important things to do than worry about grammer and spelling.

I was headed out the door for work so I can pay more taxes.
I work 7 days a week one way or another.If I am not working to make money then I am working to save money.
What I meant was it would be ok to discuss BDSM but a waste of time to discuss politics with people that have this mentality.It would be a waste of time.I don't know what you know and you don't know what I know but I know the mentality.
We would not agree on much and you won't change my mind and I won't change your mind.So what would be the point??
As I said before I am in the 4.5 % of informed voters.
If you worked as much as I do and had as slow of a internet connection you wouldn't even bother turning on the computer.
I can't afford a satalite internet connection and the phone lines suck and they won't replace them because the law says all they have to have is voice worthy lines even if they are a internet provider.
Anymore questions???


Actually, I believe you need to work on your reading comprehension. I said nothing about your spelling or grammar, (although I suppose you could count my comment about your paragraph construction as a grammar critisicm.) You also seem have spouted off a bunch of excuses about your internet connection, but I don't see how that relates to your inability to write a paragraph. If anything, I would say that it takes more time to put all those "enters" in than to construct a readable paragraph.

I'm not sure I really understand how you can understand my "mentality" from what I wrote. I was merely pointing out flaws in an inflammatory piece of work. Your support for it seem to indicate that you are the one with "that kind of mentality."

(in reply to Youtalkingtome)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/9/2005 6:15:10 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		But don't forget that he's in the 4.5% of informed voters.

(in reply to Lepidoptera)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/9/2005 8:35:24 PM   
Youtalkingtome


Posts: 112
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

And that's the end of this conversation. If you can't say what you mean in an open forum, it means you don't have anything to say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome

If I trusted you I would give you my phone # and you could call me and I would explain it over a few hours.Hell I would even invite you to my house and introduce you to people so you could see for yourself what they are about.
But you can't be trusted.



I did say what I mean!!!! You just don't want to hear it!!!!!! As I said before if you want to be an informed voter you will be.And if you don't you won't be.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/9/2005 8:47:04 PM   
Youtalkingtome


Posts: 112
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline 		Yes,grammer critisicm.
I lump it all together because it is all used in writing and typing.Something that I only do online.Their is already a thread about be a spelling Nazi.That is what you are.
I didn't put you down at all!! Reread my posts.I reposted so you would know what I meant.But you got defencive because you saw what you wanted to.
And that was my whole point about discussing politics.Some people only see what they want.Even if you show them the facts.Some people will say something is black when it is white because they don't want to be wrong.
Enough time wasted here.

(in reply to Lepidoptera)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/9/2005 9:01:28 PM   
slatyb


Posts: 43
Joined: 1/17/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, the Supreme Court merely affirmed the right of the federal government to prosecute marijuana users. It was the Congress that criminalized marijuana usage, and you do get to vote for them.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/9/2005 10:05:14 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That's amusing. FACTS are the one thing we haven't been getting from you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome

And that was my whole point about discussing politics.Some people only see what they want.Even if you show them the facts.

(in reply to Youtalkingtome)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Bill of NON-Rights - 6/10/2005 9:21:51 AM   
Youtalkingtome


Posts: 112
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's amusing. FACTS are the one thing we haven't been getting from you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome

And that was my whole point about discussing politics.Some people only see what they want.Even if you show them the facts.


Again!! That was my point of what I said about the Green party. They don't tell people that they are the new communist party.
How can anyone show that as a fact when they won't admit it to their own follwers???
All anyone can do is be informed about what is said and how they want to implement their agenda.
Just as the Democratic party is a very socilaist party but they don't tell people that.And the Republicans are for big business. As I said before if you take the new speak/political correctness out and say black is black and white is white. You get liberalism = socialisim!!! If most people knew the truth they would not vote the way they do.
Again most people only see what they want.Most stick their head in the sand and make believe everything is ok.
I have said some things about the Green party. You are in the Green party.I don't have to show any facts.If you think the Green party is so great then you should proove me wrong and defend your party!!!Instead of attacking me. I know you can't proove me wrong!That is what the Dems. do.Attack the attacker instead of defending their beliefs.
You see most liberals are not informed and base their opinions on emotions instead of facts.That is why they can't defend their beliefs and attack their attacker because it is much easier to do. That is what a few people on here have done to me.Attack me because they didn't like what I said even though it was a political comment and not directed to anyone person.So I was attacked because it was easy to do compared to being informed.
I would love to debate with you but you don't even know what your party stands for or how they want to implement their agenda.So their is nothing to debate.Two informed voters can debate and two uninformed voters can debate but it doesn't work welll when one is and one isn't.
So I am not the one without the facts! I have not seen any of your posts that give out any info. about the Green party.
I do have to apoligize! Maybe you do know and don't want the people on here to know.Because it would harm your recruitment .As I said before if people knew the truth they wouldn't vote the way they do.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 40
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