RE: Topping From the Bottom

RE: Topping From the Bottom (Full Version)

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angelic -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/23/2007 9:33:27 AM)
As i was reading through this thread, i started thinking about my last relationship. He loved to beat me and i knew it. If during the beatings i was crying and squirming, he would continue harder and more severe, i.e. he was getting what he wanted, he loved this reaction. However, i would eventually get 'lost' (some might call this subspace) and i went completely quiet, still and to another place... at that point he always stopped the beatings. i finally figured out that if i just laid quietly and still during the beatings, the beatings would not be nearly as severe and he would stop beating. Was i topping from the bottom because i was not giving him the desired response? i do not know if i was or not.

Stephann -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/23/2007 9:44:42 AM)
angelic, I don't consider 'trained responses' to equate with conscious decisions. You weren't topping from the bottom, you were learning 'survival skills.' Stephan

angelic -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/23/2007 10:09:10 AM)
Gads for a minute i thought i was losing my mind. There are two threads "Topping from the Bottom". blonde moment!

MzMia -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/23/2007 9:26:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 quote: ORIGINAL: chrisy What, exactly, is topping from the bottom? i suspect i am guilty of this and cannot see a way around it. Is wanting, and enjoying, the challenge of someone very strict setting myself (and them) up for failure? Try this.... A D/s relationship is based on an unequal control dynamic (as opposed to an egalitarian vanilla relationship) where the submissive defers to the will and choices of the dominant partner by mutual agreement. IE, within your personal relationship, the submissive you does as you're told. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] Sad that many don't get this. "Topping from the bottom" (tftb) can manifest in many forms - "attitude", brattiness, general disrespect or to outright rebellion etc. This is generally recognised as the sub taking control of the relationship (even if only for a few seconds at a time) and is definitely NOT how a D/s relationship is designed to function. Consequently, when the sub does have even a small level of control in this way, usually both Dom/me and sub are miserable for it, esp if it's systemic. To me, a bit of occasional tftb from my girl is quite enjoyable as it allows me to be a reactive Dom as well as my usual proactive. It's an opportunity to enforce my will over hers; to pull her into line; to remind her of her place etc. Think about it; I can't very well discipline her etc if she's done nothing wrong. It's also an opportunity for her to initiate a D/s dynamic, too. I mean, anytime I'm in the mood, I can just reach over and do whatever I want with/to her whereas a bit of cheek or disrespect can be her way of "inviting attention" beyond the normal avenues of her asking repectfully. And I toy with her through it; sometimes I might miss some small act of her disrespect altogether (we're all human) but mostly I'll deliberately let it pass just to see what she does with that bit of empowerment - enough rope to "hang" herself, so to speak, before I eventually "drop the hammer" on her. Enough waffling.... lol To answer your question, it is NOT up to the submissive to control some alleged need to control her "toppiness"! The dominant has control - or should have - it's HIS problem and obligation to control you! If the sub is doing it all the time (tftb), I'd suggest you're not compatible with the Dom you have, that you need someone a little stricter etc. By it's very definition, somone needs to have control in a D/s relationship and if the Dom/me is unable or unwilling to do so, it's inevitable the sub will - and both are rendered miserable. If the Dominant does NOT have control, than he/she is clearly not the Dominant party! *In a perfect World, the only thing a sub gets away with is what the dominant allows. If you (the sub) can get away with more or too much, it's the fault of the dominant!* As always, thank you!! [;)][;)] It is always nice to be reassured that Dominants should be the ones in control. ...chuckling.... Focus! Focus.

Leonidas -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/23/2007 9:29:38 PM)
It's being controlling (usually passively) while giving the appearance of being submissive. Don't worry too much about it. If you are guilty of it, whomever you're interacting with is just as guilty of "bottoming from the top", a.k.a. kissing your ass so that you'll play with him or her. At the end of the day, the dominant party to an interaction has to dominate. If they don't, complaining that you wouldn't let them because you were "topping from the bottom" is just so much whinning.

MzMia -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/23/2007 9:31:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leonidas It's being controlling (usually passively) while giving the appearance of being submissive. Don't worry too much about it. If you are guilty of it, whomever you're interacting with is just as guilty of "bottoming from the top", a.k.a. kissing your ass so that you'll play with him or her. {{{Leonidas}} bottoming from the top, and kissing your ass so that you'll play with him or her. A lot of that going around.

KnightofMists -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/23/2007 9:39:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann angelic, I don't consider 'trained responses' to equate with conscious decisions. You weren't topping from the bottom, you were learning 'survival skills.' Stephan I agree with Stephan.... The important thing to consider is that this past relationship was not a consensual BDSM experience.. and that is an important distinction. Granted.. if we are talking about a consensual BDSM situation... then I can agree that it would be a forum of Dominating from the Bottom. However.. from what you have shared... your situation was clearly not a consensual BDSM experience.

velvetears -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/23/2007 10:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leonidas "bottoming from the top", a.k.a. kissing your ass so that you'll play with him or her. i never heard that phrase before but i like it, if i ever came across a dom who did that i would be so turned off, i would feel cheated.

Focus50 -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/23/2007 10:45:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears quote: ORIGINAL: Leonidas "bottoming from the top", a.k.a. kissing your ass so that you'll play with him or her. i never heard that phrase before but i like it, if i ever came across a dom who did that i would be so turned off, i would feel cheated. The phrase may be new but how it manifests in practice definitely is not. Too many submissives put up threads on Forums about their dom seemingly not dominating them at all. Rather, he'll just kick back and passively accept all the fruits of service that particular submissive has to offer. My own definition of a healthy D/s dynamic is "A submissive submitting to a Dominant who's dominating her". "bottoming from the top" is my definition minus the last 3 and arguably 4 words - which means there's no longer an active dynamic. Focus.

velvetears -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/24/2007 10:07:27 AM)
Leonidas and your definition are similar but different - in his the dom actually seems to be chasing the sub and catering to her to get her to be submissive, in yours the dom just sort of lays back and takes the sub for granted - both of those situations would not appeal to me and i agree with you - would totally negate the D/s dynamic.

angelic -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/24/2007 10:21:02 AM)
i am just now reading this response. Interesting take on it Knight. i never once considered that i was not in a consentual M/s relationship. i never once said 'no', in my mind that is/was akin to consenting. Sheesh i gotta think some more! :)

Stephann -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/24/2007 11:50:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leonidas It's being controlling (usually passively) while giving the appearance of being submissive. Don't worry too much about it. If you are guilty of it, whomever you're interacting with is just as guilty of "bottoming from the top", a.k.a. kissing your ass so that you'll play with him or her. At the end of the day, the dominant party to an interaction has to dominate. If they don't, complaining that you wouldn't let them because you were "topping from the bottom" is just so much whinning. Preach on, Brotha. Stephan

KnightofMists -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/24/2007 10:42:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelic i am just now reading this response. Interesting take on it Knight. i never once considered that i was not in a consentual M/s relationship. i never once said 'no', in my mind that is/was akin to consenting. Sheesh i gotta think some more! :) Just because you didn't say No... doesn't mean you said YES... and that is the big thing about Consent... Saying the "YES" part.

CitizenCane -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/25/2007 7:47:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: angelic i am just now reading this response. Interesting take on it Knight. i never once considered that i was not in a consentual M/s relationship. i never once said 'no', in my mind that is/was akin to consenting. Sheesh i gotta think some more! :) Just because you didn't say No... doesn't mean you said YES... and that is the big thing about Consent... Saying the "YES" part. 'Silence implies consent'. I think it's unwieldy and impractical to define consent in a more active way for most purposes. Do we need a notarized contract for everything? "Just going along" is a big part of what many submissives do.

KnightofMists -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/25/2007 8:15:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane 'Silence implies consent'. I think it's unwieldy and impractical to define consent in a more active way for most purposes. Do we need a notarized contract for everything? "Just going along" is a big part of what many submissives do. There is more than a few abused women and even men that have remained silent in the face of their abuser.... Since their where silent... should we assume they "Implied Consent" to the abuse theysuffered? And therefore it wasn't abuse at all. Yes.. Abusers love to use that LINE... She never said "NO" and I ask.. well did she say "YES". They love to hid behind "Silence implies Consent". You make "Silence Implies Consent" is like some blank check. I pity any submissive that connects with any Dominant with such a view. That is not to say that "Silence" can't Imply Consent on occassions. But using it as an absolute is foolhardy at best.. at worse.. it's can become ABUSE! Using "Silence" Implies Consent requires responsible consideration for those involved. Using this type of consent is often preceded by actual verbal communication and gained understanding between the parties involved. Once a actual communicated understanding is gained... we draw upon the concept of Silence Implies Consent. You may think it unwieldy to actually have communicated consent at some point... interestingly enough... I think those that have been abused would of appreciated being asked if it was ok to abuse them.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/25/2007 8:21:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists Since their where silent... should we assume they "Implied Consent" to the abuse theysuffered? And therefore it wasn't abuse at all. ........ You may think it unwieldy to actually have communicated consent at some point... interestingly enough... I think those that have been abused would of appreciated being asked if it was ok to abuse them. From one who was severely emotionally abused... My silence was consent, only I didn't know it at the time. In retrospect, after I removed myself from the situation, I had to ask myself, "Why did I allow him to do that to me?" I had to take my share of ownership so I could forgive myself and begin to move on. Silent consent to abuse is a form of consent the "victim" (I hate that word) doesn't realize he/she is giving, but it is still consent. And you know, had he asked my consent at the time, I would have said "yes" because I thought I deserved it, even though I really didn't want it. Abuse is a complicated subject. I can only say I understand now why abused people don't leave their situations until serious damage is done, if at all. But then I think this thread has been derailed, as this has nothing to do with topping from the bottom. :)

KMsAngel -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/25/2007 8:29:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: angelic i am just now reading this response. Interesting take on it Knight. i never once considered that i was not in a consentual M/s relationship. i never once said 'no', in my mind that is/was akin to consenting. Sheesh i gotta think some more! :) Just because you didn't say No... doesn't mean you said YES... and that is the big thing about Consent... Saying the "YES" part. now this is an interesting point. granted, I haven't' been on the boards long, but I've never seen this. such a small point in print, but such a large concept in reality.

RaynaSub -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/25/2007 8:31:09 AM)
It is the submissives responsibility to learn the character and to trust a Dominant before she agrees to submit. If the relationship becomes abusive and she does not leave the abuser, in her silence she is accepting the abuse. That is why I feel my submission is a gift, I cherish it and I only give it those I trust and respect.

angelic -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/25/2007 9:12:30 AM)
i realize the thread was way derailed but i had to add this (i never have been good at keeping my mouth, fingers shut). ;) owned, although you and i have butted heads on many many occassions, what you said here rang very true with me. i cannot tell you how many times a day i ask myself "why did i allow him to do that to me". A very large part of who i am got lost in that relationship. The 'me', i and everyone around has always known is slowly coming back. Part of that old me will never come back. In any event, i very much appreciated what you said. The issue of consent is still a big part of it. i allowed it to go on. i did nothing to stop it and it went on and on until everything fell in on top of me... all his lies, everything. i cannot point the finger at him and say it is all your fault because i did indeed silently consent by remaining. i did not remove my consent (in my mind) until i walked away forever. Ok done.

CitizenCane -> RE: Topping From the Bottom (6/25/2007 1:12:05 PM)
I don't think this is really derailment- the idea of consent is very connected to the notion of topping from the bottom. If one takes an extremely 'active' perspective on consent, and the submissive must actively verbalize agreement to everything after thorough discussion of the actions involved and their possible consequences, then you do indeed have a situation where the submissive is in pretty complete control of the situation, and I would tend to think of this as 'topping from the bottom'. If, on the other hand, you accept a D/s dynamic in which dom and sub have a general understanding of their roles, and you have individuals who act with good faith in those roles, then silence is indeed consent, and there is much more scope for an actively dominant process to unfold. I believe that a lot of the emphasis on contracts, verbal consent, and so on, is an expression of a lack of trust. That's a perfectly reasonable stance to have, and for many it grows out of painful experience. But, however reasonable a stance mistrust is, it seems to me that a major goal of a D/s relationship is to move toward a deeper and deeper state of trust. Part of this comes about from a pattern of responsible behavior by the dom, but it also requires the exercise of trusting behavior by the sub. Ultimately, the character of the individuals involved is the only real safety for their partners, in D/s or vanilla relationships. Rules, precautions, etc, are sometimes helpful in the process of leaning about a partner's character, but they can never substitute for good character in the end.

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