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Duality and Darkness - 6/7/2005 10:58:08 PM   
CalliopePurple


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Another essay/train of thought rambling lifted from my LJ. All thoughts/comments are welcome.

It goes by many names - darkness, evil twin, the beast, alter ego. It probably exists inside all of us to some degree, no matter what we think or how we see ourselves.

For some, it's just a presence lurking inside the mind that simply is and isn't doubted or questioned. Those are probably the ones most comfortable with what's inside of them. They know that having a measure of darkness doesn't mean that they are wrong, bad, evil, or whatever label society wants to put on them for liking the things they do.

Other people reject it for a multitude of reasons. Perhaps it's written it off as the corrupting influence of an evil deity or maybe fear keeps it from being accepted as just a part of what makes us all human. Either it will fade away or grow larger, becoming an entity with a name and maybe an appearance that pipes up inside the mind, begging to be acknowleged as real.

What happens then, if the darkness is never admitted to exist on some level? It refuses to be ignored and screams, which only makes the person even more afraid of its demands and rejects it more. People cannot reject a part of themselves or they'll go crazy from not being a complete soul and mind.

Nothing is entirely black and white, but merely shades of grey. Yet there are contrasting shades and people are not immune from the duality that exists throughout all of Nature. Those that claim to be completely innocent are lying to themselves and everyone they know in order to look better. And at the same time, those that claim to be completely evil and heartless probably have at least one speck of light inside.

"It's the feeling of being alive. Filled with evil but truly alive. It's a curse that cannot be denied." That song line, from "Alive", a song in the Jekyl and Hyde musical, sums up what many find alluring about darkness when they choose to embrace or at least venture into it. Learning more about a part of things people had previously not thought about much is bound to cause overstimulation at times and also cause the feeling of truly living.

And the same goes for the people that have lived their entire lives in the darkness and can't quite understand the light. Maybe total understanding will never be reached, but at least experiencing more will lead to a better understanding of the contrasting light and dark natures that reside within each heart and mind.

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute
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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/10/2005 7:20:21 PM   
FangsNfeet


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This thread has me thinking a new thought.

What if our dark selves are intermingled with our tough sides. After all, everyone likes to show they are tough when it's needed. Weither one is truely evil or not most ppl do like to show that they can be. Or perhaps its showing more of a rough side "you don't want to mess with me boy." type attitude. When I'm mad people know it.

I have a few other thoughts on some other points in your short essay but this is the main one that I have on the entire reading.

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/10/2005 8:50:20 PM   
CalliopePurple


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Interesting point. For some people, they might be the same thing because, as you mentioned, when it comes down to defending self or a loved one, the darker side can force itself out. Maybe it's an attempt at intimidating whatever is forcing said person to need to act tough, even for a brief period of time.

Go ahead, mention all the thoughts and points that you want. I type rambles like this every once in a while and it's fun to know if my opinions are similar to or different from others just as interested in discussing the abstract.

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/10/2005 11:06:59 PM   
Pavel


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I'm trying to answer this constructively, but bear with me I'm not at 100% right now.

Dark and light assumes some level of morality assigned to each value, and then it seems to attach a set of rules dicateing those values. But at the same time, what is right and what is wrong? As trite and cliche as that sounds, the values which we assign acts and thoughts are somewhat abitrary. Many people consider the lifestyle a dark aspect of themselves, or society, however when you get down to it, it's mostly a deviation form the norm. There might be aspects of it taken by people to do acts that are commonly accepted as evil, but the vast majority of people into this all tend to be perfectly upstanding sorts, capable of makeing choices that the majority of the time can be seen as good, or at least containing good intentions.

So perhaps the darker end of the pond is less the evil, and more the non-refined core. Most of the actions we ascribe to it are the selfish/primal acts, things done in which the primary goal is profiting oneself, or simple needs (gain/pleasure/survival). Thus we assume the lighter side is the civilized acts, the "no bads" planted in our heads since childhood. "don't run naked outside." "Don't set the cat on fire." "For the last time stop trying to invade France (I can't help that, I'm German, it's my biological compulsion)." These set up the values in which we are to uphold. We don't set the cat on fire because we've been told no matter how annoying it is, it's improper to do so, no matter how much our dark side tells us it'd be so much better in a catless world (just as a disclaimer, I've got nothing against cats).

But this doesn't quite wash well, it's a bit too much of Hobbes if you will, that which is dark or primal isn't always bad or selfish. The classic philsopical example of a soldier throwing himself on the grenade seems to run counter to this. One might make the argument that this is an act of the light side of duality, but if that was the case, it'd be a clear and total override of all things primal and attactched to the dark side. It's a clear act of selflessness, the person on top of the grenade will not be around to appricate the accolades afforded to them for saveing their fellow's life. It's not exactly a trained response, I can't think of any stage in my life I've been instructed to kill myself to save others. Not to mention the fact that the choice to go/nogo is made in mere seconds. I suppose in my semi-coherent state that I'm trying to make the argument that it's this primal urge, the darker end of things that leads to this act to preserve others.

Maybe there's both a light and dark side to both the primal and refined ends of our minds. The lighter side of the primal stick is what drives us to protect others, strangers or otherwise. The darkerside is the part that tells us to take the candy from the jar because it's yummy and noone is looking. As to the refined end of the pond, it really gets down to the good vs evil, and morality kinds of things, I'm not sure I'm ready to get in to. It's easy to think of things as in a gain/loss context. You rob a bank because you'll gain the assets you think you need. You help an old lady across the street because it'll get you the merit badge that you want. But the acts that lack that gain seem to be most odd. Being good at the continued expense of your own existance and quality of life (the mother teresa example), or being evil/commiting evil acts again at one's own expense, with the concious choice to do so, isn't as clear I suppose.

Bleh, good luck at makeing sense of that all.

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/11/2005 1:29:42 AM   
CalliopePurple


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It made a good amount of sense, even though I'm reading this on my way to bed. Light and dark are traditionally assigned to "good" and "evil", respectively and that's the context I tend to use them in even though I don't really believe in absolutes when it comes to things like morals. For example, if the French ruler were a person along the lines of Hitler, I think the Germans would be justified in trying to take over, if only for the greater good of the world.

Dear gods, I think that's almost the same as me saying I agree with the war in Iraq if its reason was to overthrow Hussein. Okay, bad example, but I think my meaning is at least conveyed.

Selfishness is usually seen as a bad thing, but what drives a capitalist economy? Selfishness - Adam Smith's invisible hand. Again with me not believing in broad statements like "killing is wrong" or "it's good to help out our fellow man whenever possible."

In the case of the soldier, wouldn't self-preservation kick in and say that it's a bad idea to do it, even if it would spare the lives of others? I agree that it's selflessness at its purest, but I can't say that I'd ever do it. I value my own life entirely too much.

I typed that out off the top of my head, so I didn't stop to think much about the broader picture. You make good points as regards to primal versus refinement/commonly accepted morality. Morals, of course, vary from person to person, but that's not what this is really about at the moment. (Please excuse me, it's like 3:20 AM and my mind is only partially here)

The lifestyle, as seen through my eyes, isn't inherently light or dark, but a mixture like the rest of the world is. True, there are sometimes more chances to let the primal self out and learn what it is you (universal "you", not specific) have inside that might not have been known before. I think most people should try to find that out in one way or another anyway, just to learn what they're capable of.

I'll probably explain myself better in the morning, but I'll leave by being rather amused that "Façade", from the Jekyll and Hyde musical, is playing on my Winamp right now. *Leaves, singing it to herself* "Man is not one, but two - he is evil and good. An' he walks the fine line we'd all cross if we could! It's a nightmare we can never discard. So we stay on our guard. Though we love the façade - what's behind the façade? Look behind the façade!"

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/11/2005 1:43:56 AM   
suberic101


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In saying there are no absolutes- that in and of itself becomes absolute.

If living ones 'dark' side is considered, after all only a darker shade of grey, then could the holocaust of been that bad? I mean, come on Hitler was only acting in the method that WE think is wrong...

Another point: Morals, for the most part, are social, or cultural. For example, it is indecent and against the law to walk outside naked, i have been to countries where this is not illegal- neigh it is the norm. Some morals are abosuletely bad however: it may not be bad for a man, or woman to have more than one spouse, but in any culture it is no good for a man or woman to take any man or woman they want. It must be CONSENSUAL. That is absolute...

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/11/2005 9:24:10 AM   
Pavel


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It's fine, was writeing that all under the influence of assorted painkillers (I hate wisdom teeth) and lack of sleep. I'll be back and try to make some kinda more constructive comments once my brain is working again.

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/11/2005 10:29:31 AM   
CalliopePurple


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suberic - Good point and better example! If saying that there are no absolutes is absolute, then that's a contradiction and surely SOME things must be definitively right or wrong, no matter the culture or time period. Your mention of rape was a perfect way to show that.

Hitler was doing what he felt was right, but most of the rest of the world (thankfully) disagreed with him. There are always going to be people whose thoughts and actions are SO far from what is commonly accepted that we'll know right away that it's not a good thing to act that way. I can't say that it's wrong to believe a certain thing because that would be indirectly wanting to impose my own beliefs on the person.

And my inner geek is forcing me to dig up this video game quote because it fits well with the discussion. "Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just 2 sides holding different views." - Squall Leonhart, Final Fantasy VIII

If you look at all the things I tend to quote, I think you get an even better idea of my opinions from me trying to explain things myself. Maybe I see the world in too much grey because I look at people most of the time and I think we can all agree that people are not absolutes or things that can be easily put into boxes or categories. *Plans to minor in sociology once she goes to college*

Pavel: I had a wisdom tooth pulled a couple months ago. I know how much it fucking sucks and how much Vicodin seems like a gift from the gods. Hope you're less sore soon.

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/11/2005 12:10:11 PM   
MsSilvie


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This is a great thread! If you look at some of the works of Carl Jung, you can draw a direct connection to what he calls the "shadow". By deciding what parts of ourselves are desireable, positive and good, we automatically create other parts that are not desireable. The problem is, they are still attributes we have, just ones we repress.

People can repress these things so deeply, they they do seem to take on a life of their own. A very hostile life, at times. People give these atributes their own persona, because the feelings are so inconsistent with what they want to accept about themselves that they can feel foreign. You implied what I think an example of this: people who claim to have become possessed (in a religious sense). The feelings and desires they feel aren't from some demon, it's from that shadow-self, breaking through into conciousness.

While I agree "right and wrong" have to be looked at carefully when being applied as general concepts, we can all agree that there are healthier ways than others to deal with specific needs and desires. BDSM should be such an outlet to deal with some very primative, dark, unplesant things in a controlled and supportive environment.

If anyone is interested in reading some more on Jung's shadow, there are a number of books that I have found to be helpful:

Owning Your Own Shadow : Understanding the Dark Side of the Psyche by Robert Johnson. This short book discusses the shadow from a mostly Christian perspective, but it is very readable for non-Christians also.

Meeting the Shadow This is a collection of short pieces from different writers.

A Little Book on the Human Shadow Another short book that has a lot in it for the length.







_____________________________

Strange thoughts beget strange deeds.

- Percy Bysshe Shelley

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/11/2005 12:22:04 PM   
Pavel


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Nothing at all wrong with inner geeks.

I tend to believe there is still some kind of right and wrong, divorced from just different perspectives. Perhaps this is just the remains of my upbringing within the church, but I tend to ascribe an ultimate evil, and a ultimate good, with all manner a shades of grey in between. In keeping with the spritual nature of such a concept I tend to give that ultimate good or evil to somthing outside of humanity, the whole God/satan complex.

What Hitler did didn't merely disagree with the majority of what humanity finds right in my version of morality. I suppose it only comes within a spritual system that you have morality as a independant construct, in a system which assumes random creation of life (pure evolution sans intelligent design) tends to ascribe morality mostly as a way to protect society, and enforce those norms I suppose. I guess my version of good and evil assumes there was a scale to be measured on prior to humans being around to do good or evil.

Of course, that goes again into what really is evil, and still has the same problem, Hitler was convinced he was saveing civilization, and that the bloodshed along the way was rightously taken. It'd be easy to dismiss killing as just never worthwhile, but given my choice in profession, it certainly isn't how I see things. We can certainly find fault at the motivation, it was for a reason that dosn't stand under the light of rational thinking (oh yes, the Jews really control eveything, and it's all their fault, oh totally -eye roll-). I think my other objection comes from the way in which murder was industrialized, and turned into a simple process. I suppose I think death should just be an unfortunate side effect of military action, if that makes any sense. The killing should never be the end goal, rather it should be seen as the tragic steps taken along the way to a solution (of course this starts slipping into the whole Just War idea).

So just to sorta summarize that all rather shortly, I tend to have an external moral measurement I assign to things. Things rarely fall under one end, or the other, but often have a mix of good and evil within them (or alternately selfish/selfless).

The thing about the grenade argument is it's a documented occurance. A grenade has somthing like a 5-15 foot kill radius, generally if you're close enough to throw yourself on it, you're already dead, it's just a matter of your body takeing all of the blast, vs everyone around you takeing it too. The selflessness seems to come in that you're not throwing someone else onto it to save yourself rather.

The lifestyle is somthing independant of morals I suppose. It's like argueing if jello or jumping rope is evil, it's just a matter of who is doing it and why.

They pulled all my wisdom teeth at once. I'm not that bad (no swelling, no infections), it just feels like someone is trying to pull my jaw off bit by bit. Not sure what they put me on (oxy somthing or other) but I hate it, it makes me feel like my brain is slideing around on ice, I can hardly focus.

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/11/2005 4:40:31 PM   
CalliopePurple


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Silvie- My roommates inform me that they don't know where the local library is, one that's not a college library at any rate, or else I'd read Jung as well as try to find the other three that you mentioned. Maybe I'll order them online once I get a job and a debit card.

And I know about repressing undesireable traits a little too well because I'm only now starting to come to terms with the fact that I do enjoy hurting people from time to time. It's always seemed easier to admit the masochist streak than the sadist one.

It's probably proof of how long I've struggled with myself that my "shadow" has her own name and appearance, as well as being the evil little voice that whispers in the back of my mind from time to time. Oh, and I'm glad you find this thread good. I'm just in the mood for actual thought-provoking discussion lately and it's hard to find sometimes.

Pavel - Part of my religious beliefs is in the balance of life, the yin and yang theory, so to speak. I don't believe in a supreme "good" deity or an opposite "evil" entity; to me, all the gods and goddesses have traits of both. The more I think about this, the more I'm figuring out what's helped shape my views on the world. Terms like good, evil, right, and wrong are all ones that humans came up with and as such, we are the ones that define them based on the culture we live in.

I don't believe that killing is always pointless and wrong, but I think that it should be avoided unless there is no other way to go about solving an issue and even then, efforts should be made to minimize casualties. Death should be a means to an end, albeit a drastic one, but not the end itself. I can agree with you there.

Very few things can be defined as definitively wrong or right, no matter the culture. Rape and unprovoked, nonconsensual violence can probably be agreed as wrong whereas assisting those less fortunate is virtually always seen as right, even if the reason behind it is slightly selfish.

Any person's lifestyle, be it BDSM or not, is independent of a moral label because the many people practicing it all have differing thoughts as to what gets done and just what things they will/will not do. There are too many factors and practitioners to give a label to a faction of society.

You're probably on Oxycontin (the stuff Russ Limbaugh was hooked on.) I only had to have the one done because it was growing in crooked - the other three are perfectly fine. Hope you feel better soon.

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute

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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/11/2005 5:16:46 PM   
Pavel


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Oh boy, on the same drugs as one of my favorite people. I couldn't be happier. Bleh.

I come from a Christian upbringing, so I tend to view things in a chiefly monothesitic perspective, while I allow for other things existing on a spritual plane, I generally still sort them into one extreme or the other. While I've found that good and evil are very often human constructs, I'm inclined to believe that there's somthing more than that just beyond wrong.

One of the few sermons I remember from when I regularly attended church, had a message kinda along these lines; darkness is just an absense of light. There is a finite value to just how dark it can get out, just as much as a box can only be so empty. Naturally the point of the sermon was on the other hand, light is kinda infinate, things can just be brighter and brighter (thus making the point somthing along the lines of the good will always outweigh the darkness, etc). I've seen places that have had that lack of light so to say. It's like a stain, that no matter how bright the sun, blue the sky, is just as black and foul. It kinda felt like touching tar, a sticky gross feeling, that no matter how hard you try to get rid of it, it stays with you. I suppose just based on that experince I'm inclined to say I buy into the fact that there is such a thing as evil, as opposed to just wrong.

If one is to use violence it must be used to it's fullest with the intent of bringing a quick and desisive end to the situation. A life taken in an action that offers no reasonable end, or means to the end is a life immorally taken.

I'll agree with you on your right and wrongs, although obviously enough I still reserve my tendnacy to put good or evil on such acts as need be. I'll also agree with the BDSM/lifestyle comment. Lifestyles tend to be things we're drawn to in and of who we are, rather than as a concious choice (at least that's how I feel about BDSM). It's pretty rare for such a thing to be bad or destructive in and of itself.


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RE: Duality and Darkness - 6/11/2005 8:02:56 PM   
CalliopePurple


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My family wasn't religious, so I found something to believe in on myself (eclectic paganism). I do know enough about Christianity, though. And from a scientific perspective, as well as spiritual, darkness has no existence in and of itself.

I haven't had any experiences with places like the ones you described, so I'll continue believing that there really isn't evil, just an absence of good, until experience proves otherwise. I'm pretty young, my idealism hasn't been completely taken from me yet. And hopefully, it never will be.

Lifestyles are who/what we are, not what we do. And I'll never believe that anything that's felt to be an integral part of the self is evil or wrong.

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute

(in reply to Pavel)
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