US to fingerprint EU visitors (Full Version)

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cyberdude611 -> US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 12:58:08 PM)

U.S. to fingerprint E.U. visitors

Visitors from European nations traveling with visas or visa-free to the United States will soon have to give 10 digital fingerprints when entering the country, a senior U.S. Homeland Security official said Monday.

Border checks could also soon include other biometric data, such as facial and eye retina scans, as the U.S. upgrades security at its ports, airports and border crossings, said P.T. Wright, the operations director for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's US-VISIT Program.

All people from European nations and others participating in the U.S. Visa-Waiver program would have to give additional prints, as would people traveling from nations where visas are needed, he said.

Wright, who was in Brussels to explain the new system to EU officials, said a pilot project at 10 major U.S. airports would be launched in late 2007, expanding the current program that calls for taking prints of two fingers and facial photographs.

Since the two-fingerprint scans were introduced in 2004, Wright said, security and convenience for travelers has gotten better.
"What we have encountered in the last four years is improved security as well as greater facilitation of the traveler coming to the United States," Wright said. "It's a very quick and simple scan of the fingers."

U.S. travel security restrictions have caused increased opposition in EU nations, amid demands from Brussels that Washington expand its visa-waiver program to include all 27 EU nations.

The current program allows citizens from most Western European countries and some other parts of the world to enter the country without visas, but excludes many of the newer EU member states.

EU data protection officials also have raised concerns in the past over the U.S. system and over a similar fingerprint system being set up by EU nations. They are keen to get the best privacy guarantees for citizens.

Wright said data was collected on visitors under strict U.S. privacy protection rules, and that the new 10-print scan would not take more time than the current check — usually about 10 seconds.

The prints are checked against U.S. security watch lists drawn up by U.S. Homeland Security and other policing agencies. The Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Central Intelligence Agency also have access to the prints, Wright said.

The 10-print scans would be "virtually 100 percent match accurate," he said.

"We are going to know that that's you," Wright said. Future changes include adding other biometric identifiers — such as facial or retinal scans — to better rule out fraud, he said.

"The fingerprint is a foundation biometric, so once your identity is established using the fingerprint and your identity is fixed then we believe for verifying we can move to any of the future technologies as they become better and faster," he said.

Airports chosen for the initial pilot project include Boston Logan International, Chicago's O'Hare, George Bush Houston Intercontinental, Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County, Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International, Miami International, John F. Kennedy International, Orlando International, San Francisco International and Washington Dulles International.

The current US-VISIT program that uses a two-print arrival system is being used in 115 airports, 15 seaports and 154 land border checks. 100 million prints had been taken so far.

More than 34,000 people whose names showed up on U.S. watch lists were denied U.S. entry as a result of the system.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070625/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/eu_us_travel_security




farglebargle -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 1:27:54 PM)

quote:


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Well, so much for being "secure in their persons", eh?





mrbob726 -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 1:31:17 PM)

oh come on fargle - they aren't US citizens, and the constitution only covers US citizens. Get real!




popeye1250 -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 1:32:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Well, so much for being "secure in their persons", eh?




Ah Fargle, this program is for foreigners not U.S. Citizens.




farglebargle -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 1:40:23 PM)

I see the word PEOPLE not CITIZEN. Where do you see the word "CITIZEN"?





popeye1250 -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 1:44:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I see the word PEOPLE not CITIZEN. Where do you see the word "CITIZEN"?




Fargle, when the Founding Fathers came up with the *U.S.* Constitution they were making it for the *United States* not for other countries.
How could they speak for other countries?




farglebargle -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 1:49:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I see the word PEOPLE not CITIZEN. Where do you see the word "CITIZEN"?




Fargle, when the Founding Fathers came up with the *U.S.* Constitution they were making it for the *United States* not for other countries.
How could they speak for other countries?


The US Constitution tell the US GOVERNMENT what they are permitted to do.

Since it doesn't say the US can limit RIGHTS to CITIZENS, and specifically extends them to PEOPLE, then the US cannot limit to whom they extend protection for unalienable rights.

Remember, the US Constitution doesn't GIVE THE PEOPLE ANYTHING. It TELLS THE GOVERNMENT WHAT **THE GOVERNMENT*** IS PERMITTED.





slaveboyforyou -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 1:49:38 PM)

quote:

I see the word PEOPLE not CITIZEN. Where do you see the word "CITIZEN"?


It says "the people" not just "people." 




farglebargle -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 1:52:09 PM)

Are you going to say that there's a difference? That People is not the same as people?

Then WHY do they use CITIZEN to specifically mean CITIZEN in other amendments?

Because there, they MEANT Citizen, and here, they mean The People.





slaveboyforyou -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 1:58:09 PM)

Yes I am saying there is a difference.  There is a difference in the meaning of a noun when you use an article in front of the noun.  If I say dog, you have no idea what dog I am talking about.  If I say the dog, than I am obviously talking about a specific dog.  "The" is a definite article that is used in front of nouns to specify a particular person, group, or object.  The people implies a specific body of people, not just people in general. 

There is also something else you have missed.  Until you walk through customs, you are not on American soil.  You are not protected by the Constitution while on foreign soil.




farglebargle -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:04:19 PM)

How so? Since the Constitution ABSOLUTELY limits Federal Power, how can those ABSOLUTE LIMITS stop at the Border?

If you are an agent of the US Government, the Constitution limits your actions. Those limits do not stop at the border.

Where did you get the incorrect belief that the Constitution does anything BUT delegate authority to the Feds from The People, and that the explicit limits to that authority are restricted in any way?





popeye1250 -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:07:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I see the word PEOPLE not CITIZEN. Where do you see the word "CITIZEN"?




Fargle, when the Founding Fathers came up with the *U.S.* Constitution they were making it for the *United States* not for other countries.
How could they speak for other countries?


The US Constitution tell the US GOVERNMENT what they are permitted to do.

Since it doesn't say the US can limit RIGHTS to CITIZENS, and specifically extends them to PEOPLE, then the US cannot limit to whom they extend protection for unalienable rights.

Remember, the US Constitution doesn't GIVE THE PEOPLE ANYTHING. It TELLS THE GOVERNMENT WHAT **THE GOVERNMENT*** IS PERMITTED.




Fargle, it's called the *US* Constitution.
It doesn't apply to people in Poland, Japan or Russia.
It only applies to U.S. Citizens.
If someone has a problem with being fingerprinted then they don't have to come here, do they?




farglebargle -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


Fargle, it's called the *US* Constitution.



Correct. And as such, it defines the DELEGATED AUTHORITY, permitted the Federal Government of the united States.

quote:


It doesn't apply to people in Poland, Japan or Russia.


It doesn't apply to people in the US, either.

IT APPLIES TO THE US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ONLY.

Wherever the Government goes, the Constitution tells them what they are permitted to do.





popeye1250 -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:12:58 PM)

It doesn't apply to people?
Oh forget it!




farglebargle -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:16:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

It doesn't apply to people?
Oh forget it!



It DOESN'T. It says "The Federal Government MAY do a, b, c, and is PROHIBITED from doing x, y, z."

As the SOVEREIGN here, The People DO NOT NEED ANYTHING GRANTED. They hold all the Sovereign Authority already, and "Delegate" various subsets of that Authority to either the State or Federal Government.

The 4th amendment's statement: "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" doesn't GIVE The People that right.

It PROHIBITS the Federal Government from infringing upon the right they've gotten from ( as per the Declaration of Independence ) Their Creator.





slaveboyforyou -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:22:01 PM)

quote:

How so? Since the Constitution ABSOLUTELY limits Federal Power, how can those ABSOLUTE LIMITS stop at the Border?

If you are an agent of the US Government, the Constitution limits your actions. Those limits do not stop at the border.

Where did you get the incorrect belief that the Constitution does anything BUT delegate authority to the Feds from The People, and that the explicit limits to that authority are restricted in any way?


I see that you are not going to admit your misinterpretation of the language in the portion of THE Constitution you quoted, which was my main point. 




mrbob726 -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:27:00 PM)

fargle, if you don't equate "the people" as espoused in the constitution to mean U.S. citizens, where do you  think, "We, The People of the United States......." in the preamble came from? That says it all, I think. And now I'm gonna stop beating my head against the wall, because it will feel so good when I stop.
*** edited for clarity***




farglebargle -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:28:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

How so? Since the Constitution ABSOLUTELY limits Federal Power, how can those ABSOLUTE LIMITS stop at the Border?

If you are an agent of the US Government, the Constitution limits your actions. Those limits do not stop at the border.

Where did you get the incorrect belief that the Constitution does anything BUT delegate authority to the Feds from The People, and that the explicit limits to that authority are restricted in any way?


I see that you are not going to admit your misinterpretation of the language in the portion of THE Constitution you quoted, which was my main point.


That's because your point is pointless.

I've already told you, if they meant "CITIZEN" they would have written "CITIZEN" so your grasping about trying to read into the clear text is pointless.

And how exactly do you determine if a particular person is part of "the people" , rather than a citizen?

How about this? NON-CITIZENS are superior to the Federal Government, too. THEY are part of "The People".







NorthernGent -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:52:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

U.S. to electrocute the eyeballs of E.U. visitors



'Was always on the cards.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors (6/25/2007 2:54:54 PM)

quote:

That's because your point is pointless.

I've already told you, if they meant "CITIZEN" they would have written "CITIZEN" so your grasping about trying to read into the clear text is pointless.

And how exactly do you determine if a particular person is part of "the people" , rather than a citizen?

How about this? NON-CITIZENS are superior to the Federal Government, too. THEY are part of "The People".


Going by your logic, than a non-citizen should have the right to vote in the United States as well.  The Constitution as written in 1787 never defined who a citizen was.  That distinction came with the 14th amendement.  As I pointed out, the use of the article "The" is deliberate.  It indicates a specific body of people. 

The Constitution does give power and authority to the government by consent of The People to enforce laws made by Congress, which is also empowered by The People to make laws.  The Supreme Court decides if those laws fall within the restraints of the Constitution, and the Supreme Court derives that power from The People.  The Congress has passed laws concerning travel, which the Supreme Court has upheld, and the Executive branch enforces those laws.   




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