When Did We Become the Soviet Union?

When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 1:15:40 PM)
When I was a child growing up in the 1960s, our school regularly held “bomb drills” where we would either (1) crawl under our desks or (2) march into the hall and put our heads against our lockers. Yeah, I know, that’s a ridiculous response to the perceived threat of a nuclear attack by the Soviet Union, but that was the policy. Our teachers also taught us about the Soviet Union—mostly that “Russia” was not the proper term, and that living in the Soviet Union was horribly oppressive. People couldn’t live where they wanted to live. People couldn’t leave the country if they chose. The totalitarian government made all the decisions. Evil. “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!” And the evil was defeated. Or just replaced. My girlfriend and I waited six months while she got permission to come to the U.S. from Canada. Yes—Canada and the U.S., a border I’ve crossed frequently with no more than a brief conversation with the border guards. She applied for a new passport, even paid for expedited service, but to date has not seen her passport, even though she’s been assured that everything is in order, that it’s just waiting for someone in Ottawa to stamp it. Canada finally issued her a letter indicating her application was in process and allowed her to travel on that. The U.S. holds an equally bizarre stance. Passport applications are months behind, including those with expedited payments, and all to accomplish WHAT? [My state’s senator, Chuck Schumer, has called for a refund for those folks who didn’t get the expedited service they purchased. Imagine.] Deadlines have been adjusted and readjusted, but if you want to go to Canada, you’ll need a passport to get back. Nothing else will do. Why? “Homeland Security” has nothing to do with this (unless the government is hopelessly stupid). ANYONE with an iota of common sense, determined to do so, can cross this border. Hell, in many places, a small boat or plane will do the job—in some places you can just walk across. Even if somehow we sealed this line, we have oceans on each side. It’s just not hard. Then why the increase in “security”? Remember—the 9/11 hijackers were all in the country LEGALLY. If we’re addressing security here, it’s only the illusion of security, the administration once more betting on the foolishness or inattention of the American public. So far a safe bet. The Bush folks wanted a national ID card, and couldn’t get it. They substituted the passport. They cut taxes and ballooned the national debt. The passport fiasco generates significant extra income. They put in place a policy they couldn’t sustain with infrastructure, and so couldn’t deliver. Anyone see a pattern? Logic has nothing to do with any of this. While jingoistic ideologues debate toothless immigration policy, reality seems immaterial. My girl, for example, lives with me, has her own income from her share of a business interest in Canada, has her own health insurance from Canada, but the U.S. figures too many Canadians already live in the U.S. Hardly the immigration message you heard on the news. Look at this another way—suppose she visited (she can visit for three months, then has to go back for 48 hours, then can visit again) and lost her passport (or letter, or imagine they were stolen—a popular target soon, I’ll bet). She’d be unable to reenter Canada. She’d then be an unwitting illegal alien in the U.S. What’s she supposed to do? In the U.S. at least, immigration cases don’t get the protections citizens are afforded—meaning they can hold you indefinitely for no reason. Imagine you go to Canada. Your luggage is stolen, along with your passport. How are you going to get back? The administration’s position is that you can’t return. So let me see if I’ve got this straight. You can’t leave the country without government approval, through a State department approved passport, which you must purchase but will get whenever, maybe. If you don’t have your papers, you can’t return. Yeah, hopefully, the Consulate can help you. But truthfully, and I do NOT say this lightly— The war on terror? The fight against “those who hate freedom”? Osama bin Laden won it six years ago, and the Bush administration features his top generals.

Mandella664 -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 1:23:08 PM)
I once crossed into Canada without any picture ID. This is post 9/11, mind you. I had my Social Security card and an expired temporary drivers license. Coming back to the US a few days later was interesting to say the least...

stella40 -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 1:52:07 PM)
Greetings to all those in Fortress America from Fortress Britain. When did 9/11 happen? What year was it? Well I came across Islamic fundamentalist attitudes and discussions on 'the evil West' way back in 1996. I don't know how it is in the US, but in the UK has anyone else noticed that many of the asylum seekers and refugees admitted into the country and allowed to stay have been Muslims? I'm thinking of people from Afghanistan, Somalia, Eritrea, the Sudan, Iraq, Iran, just to give a few examples. I also wonder how many Muslims from the Balkans have been allowed to stay whilst others from the Balkans have been required to return? Now all of a sudden there are blanket restrictions on people travelling from one country to another as a precaution against terrorism. In the UK we also face having ID cards introduced, but ones which require 54 different types of information, photos, fingerprints and biometric data and also the documentation of every place lived, worked, studied, etc from the age of 5. All your information is supposed to be held on these ID cards, medical, employment, financial, criminal (or lack of) and so on. Soon in the UK you will have to show your passport to take up employment. I have also noticed in the UK anyone and everyone offering work demands a CV, other papers, and proof of identification, with references, certificates, and proof, if necessary, that you have the legal right to work in the UK. Even people offering part time domestic cleaning jobs demand such documents. This has nothing to do with terrorism in my opinion, but more to eradicate as much as possible freedom of the individual. Not only do we have restrictions placed on our movements, but also - and I sincerely believe this - control over our finances. Cash has become suspect. The preferred methods of payment are direct debit, credit card and in some cases (increasingly) by a PayPal account. This is all pressure designed to take the money out of your pocket and keep it, as much as possible, in accounts, whether it be bank accounts. We are constantly being monitored, checked, tracked, and in some cases observed. The average person in London is recorded on an average of 30 CCTV monitors and cameras. We are also being constantly monitored on the Internet. Does anyone have spyware? How much of this tracking software, spyware, adware and so on do you constantly have to remove from your system? I'm also sure that all this information is being shared by God knows who, and that governments are building very comprehensive databases. Got a cellphone? Do you carry it around? Well the authorities know where you are at any time down to say 50 metres. In my opinion this is all very ominous. It stinks. And I'm pretty sure that if nothing changes before too long all it will require is for a civil servant somewhere to press the DEL key once, and you will simply cease to exist. And if that doesn't make you think, nothing will.

philosophy -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 1:56:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stella40 And I'm pretty sure that if nothing changes before too long all it will require is for a civil servant somewhere to press the DEL key once, and you will simply cease to exist. ....ah, Brazil......that Terry Gilliam was ahead of his time.........

kinkychild18 -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 2:50:05 PM)
9/11 happened September 11th, 2001.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 4:38:33 PM)
1993

popeye1250 -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 5:02:33 PM)
After 9/11 instead of going after al qeada Bush just formed more beaurocracies. More people sitting at desks doing "paperwork." Even now that they know that al qeada is running training camps in Pakistan nothing is done about it. And how many millions have snuck into the U.S. over that wide open Mexican border since? This government is totally dysfunctional.

Vendaval -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 5:13:34 PM)
She had to wait 6 months? That is outrageous! Were you able to travel to and from Canada to visit her? quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery My girlfriend and I waited six months while she got permission to come to the U.S. from Canada. Yes—Canada and the U.S., a border I’ve crossed frequently with no more than a brief conversation with the border guards. She applied for a new passport, even paid for expedited service, but to date has not seen her passport, even though she’s been assured that everything is in order, that it’s just waiting for someone in Ottawa to stamp it. Canada finally issued her a letter indicating her application was in process and allowed her to travel on that.

violetaelf -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 5:22:55 PM)
The initial post brings up a lot good and frustrating question... But It raises one in me... I really do not see the meaning of the Title of the question.. "When did we become the Soviet Union?" The problem of the immigration, passports being issued and national security that sometimes doesn't make sense... How's that referring to Soviet Union? Or What part of it? Just for the record... I've lived in the Soviet Union, granted, as a child.. but I understood it and I know what it was like before and after "Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall" I'm just baffled as to the reference of the question :) and by no means defending anything in Soviet Union or Russia and other republics after breakdown. Just a curios one. 'violet'

FatDomDaddy -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 5:52:14 PM)
mistake

Musicmystery -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 5:57:51 PM)
Vendaval, No. Before I can even apply for a passport, I have to wait for a new copy of my birth certificate. Anyway, the idea is to have her here. violetaelf, It means that what we were told about the Soviet Union as children in the 1960s (not at all claiming any of it was accurate) is what the U.S. is becoming. Irony. Best to all.

philosophy -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 6:11:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy During the 1992 Summer Olympics ........9/11 happened during the olympics? Suddenly i begin to see a rationale behind your posts. Has the pole vault always made you feel uncomfortable?

Griswold -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 6:22:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery When I was a child growing up in the 1960s, our school regularly held “bomb drills” where we would either (1) crawl under our desks or (2) march into the hall and put our heads against our lockers. Yeah, I know, that’s a ridiculous response to the perceived threat of a nuclear attack by the Soviet Union, but that was the policy. Our teachers also taught us about the Soviet Union—mostly that “Russia” was not the proper term, and that living in the Soviet Union was horribly oppressive. People couldn’t live where they wanted to live. People couldn’t leave the country if they chose. The totalitarian government made all the decisions. Evil. “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!” And the evil was defeated. Or just replaced. My girlfriend and I waited six months while she got permission to come to the U.S. from Canada. Yes—Canada and the U.S., a border I’ve crossed frequently with no more than a brief conversation with the border guards. She applied for a new passport, even paid for expedited service, but to date has not seen her passport, even though she’s been assured that everything is in order, that it’s just waiting for someone in Ottawa to stamp it. Canada finally issued her a letter indicating her application was in process and allowed her to travel on that. The U.S. holds an equally bizarre stance. Passport applications are months behind, including those with expedited payments, and all to accomplish WHAT? [My state’s senator, Chuck Schumer, has called for a refund for those folks who didn’t get the expedited service they purchased. Imagine.] Deadlines have been adjusted and readjusted, but if you want to go to Canada, you’ll need a passport to get back. Nothing else will do. Why? “Homeland Security” has nothing to do with this (unless the government is hopelessly stupid). ANYONE with an iota of common sense, determined to do so, can cross this border. Hell, in many places, a small boat or plane will do the job—in some places you can just walk across. Even if somehow we sealed this line, we have oceans on each side. It’s just not hard. Then why the increase in “security”? Remember—the 9/11 hijackers were all in the country LEGALLY. If we’re addressing security here, it’s only the illusion of security, the administration once more betting on the foolishness or inattention of the American public. So far a safe bet. The Bush folks wanted a national ID card, and couldn’t get it. They substituted the passport. They cut taxes and ballooned the national debt. The passport fiasco generates significant extra income. They put in place a policy they couldn’t sustain with infrastructure, and so couldn’t deliver. Anyone see a pattern? Logic has nothing to do with any of this. While jingoistic ideologues debate toothless immigration policy, reality seems immaterial. My girl, for example, lives with me, has her own income from her share of a business interest in Canada, has her own health insurance from Canada, but the U.S. figures too many Canadians already live in the U.S. Hardly the immigration message you heard on the news. Look at this another way—suppose she visited (she can visit for three months, then has to go back for 48 hours, then can visit again) and lost her passport (or letter, or imagine they were stolen—a popular target soon, I’ll bet). She’d be unable to reenter Canada. She’d then be an unwitting illegal alien in the U.S. What’s she supposed to do? In the U.S. at least, immigration cases don’t get the protections citizens are afforded—meaning they can hold you indefinitely for no reason. Imagine you go to Canada. Your luggage is stolen, along with your passport. How are you going to get back? The administration’s position is that you can’t return. So let me see if I’ve got this straight. You can’t leave the country without government approval, through a State department approved passport, which you must purchase but will get whenever, maybe. If you don’t have your papers, you can’t return. Yeah, hopefully, the Consulate can help you. But truthfully, and I do NOT say this lightly— The war on terror? The fight against “those who hate freedom”? Osama bin Laden won it six years ago, and the Bush administration features his top generals. (My guess is, your girlfriend is a commie, and that's what's holding up things).

violetaelf -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 6:23:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery violetaelf, It means that what we were told about the Soviet Union as children in the 1960s (not at all claiming any of it was accurate) is what the U.S. is becoming. Irony. Best to all. chuckles Now I am curious as to - what - were you told about the Soviet Union as children in the 60s... just so I can see how it all relates to the passport business :) I've taking history lessons in school here in US and ... oh boy, even in the 90s it's still very limiting information and often not exactly accurate. 'violet'

FatDomDaddy -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 6:27:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy During the 1992 Summer Olympics ........9/11 happened during the olympics? Suddenly i begin to see a rationale behind your posts. Has the pole vault always made you feel uncomfortable? The Dream Team did. The Olympics and professional Wrestkling were never the same after The Soviets left the scene. And in many many ways, America has become the Soviets sports wise, especially in the Olympics.

Musicmystery -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 6:48:47 PM)
Well, consider this was not long after the McCarthy era.......

MrrPete -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/27/2007 7:14:06 PM)
I spent 15 years in the US Navy and traveled to many countries in the Mediterrainean and S. America with nothing more than myArmed Forces ID card I didn't realize at the time that ther were treaties in place that made this possible. But that wasn't the case in S America. My ship had just gone through the Panama Canal or "The Ditch" as we called it and started down the eastern seaboard when I was notified the there was a family problem back in the states. We got off the ship and flew to Sao Palo and waited the better part of the day while the embassy got us cleared to go home. While home for 30 days I had to get a passport to return to my ship when it got to Rio. Then, as a civilian, I went to Scotland for 10 days. Got causght in the Hoof and Mouth fiasco which was incinvenient but not a big problem. Had a passport on time as I applied well in advance of the trip. It's still good for a few years and I'll renew it when it's time even though I don't plan on going anywhere. Never had a problem with customs either evne packing a .44 Magnum coming back from Italy in 1968. i hate flying anymore as my knee always sets off the alarm and I get sent ot the penalty box for extra scutiny

meatcleaver -> RE: When Did We Become the Soviet Union? (6/28/2007 12:02:08 AM)
I visited the Soviet Union and travelled around east Europe on two occasions when I was a teenager and in my early twenties in the 70s. It was far easier to get in than getting into the USA now and far less questions were asked at the border control. Despite its noteriety in the west of being oppressive, I found that ordinary Russians didn't have the sense of being oppressed but were rather patriotic in the same vein that Americans are patriotic. The intelligensia was another matter but that is true of the US too. People who think the fundemental questions rarely are patriotic unless they have special interests in seeing the regime that governs them existy. That seems tru of the USA as it is of the USSR as it is of any country. As for hiding under ones desk at school or under the stairs at home in case of nuclear war, I remember our teacher at school saying that was nonsense and designed by the government to foster paranoia and demonize the potential enemy. Since the end of the cold war that has been proved true. The USSR was always playing catch up and never had the power to invade western Europe which is what thinking people said at the time and said it would be the US that would start a war and not the USSR because of this but what the government vigorously denied this. Looking back at the cold war, it was the Strausian philosophy that seems so prevalent in the US that seems to have posed the biggest danger. I am really not surprised at the US government is being so oppressive, it has form and let's face it, the US is an ideological state and ideological states need ideological enemies. In the cold war the USA and USSR had each other, now the USSR has gone the US needs another ideological enemy which is where Islamofascism comes in. Hell, it used to be Britain once and by the way Americans think Britain was oppressive shows how good government peopaganda was back then. Americans seem to have forgot the 'revolutionary war' was as mush a civil war as a war of independence and families were split shows the effectiveness of the propaganda. The founding fathers were ideological and country has been ideological ever since, hence the need for enemies. If its not the British with the oppressive George III (who had no power) it was the natives, the Mexicans, the Spanish, Nazis (OK, that was ion the button), Communists, Soviets, Muslims and who knows what will be next. All I have to day is goodbye Blair, he has the ideological bug too and was dangerous because of it.

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