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RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/28/2007 3:56:02 PM   
MistressNoName


Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		Both Suleiman and pixel make very good points in their posts.

Pixel: I think you are right in suggesting that a a Dominant woman is in an excellent position to assist a submissive man in exploring self and figuring things out...the key there, tho, is that that sub man has got to be truly willing to engage in the process and be willing to tolerate the process and stick with it even when the process is painful or just uncomfortable. Some can do this. Some cannot. And still some others simply are not seeking this. Personally, I would expect to be doing this with any sub as just part of the natural growth process of any relationship, vanilla or kinky...but esp in a D/s type relationship.

Suleiman: What you say about labels being often ill-defined is very true...and what I find very often is that different people simply have different understandings about what labels mean. Case in point, with all that's been written and discussed about what is a slave vs what is a submissive, it fascinates me that we still, as a community, do not agree on the definitions...for better or for worse, I think.


MNN

(in reply to Suleiman)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/28/2007 5:41:56 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I may have to do this through a couple of different posts, so please be patient with Me.  Before addressing any particular comment, I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to read, and share input on the thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName

I'm not so sure that what the OP is talking about is the difference between "submissives" and "bottoms" so much as the difference between people who are truly serious about this lifestyle and people who are just interested in the fantasy, (and I don't see that as a sub vs. bottom issue at all). At least, that's what I got from the post...and I could simply be reading my own stuff into that, I dunno. Personally, the frustration sets in when I see out of the few emails that make it into my inbox, that really the majority of them are just playing some sort of kinky fantasy game. And into this category I put the players, the cheaters, and the ones who just haven't done enough self-exploration to have a clue about who they are, what they want and how they could possibly please or be of any use to a Dominant woman.

My 2-cents.


MNN


This was an excellent comment, since in the OP, I was actually referring to both.  The submissives rather than bottoms (by My definition anyway) AND the lifestyle vrs fantasy description.
 
To elaborate, first I should mention that there is absolutely nothing wrong in My view of describing oneself as a bottom, rather than a submissive.  Just because it is not the preference in what I seek, doesn't make it any less legitimate.  In fact, because there seems to be a greater preference by many in that they would rather find a submissive, it takes specific honesty to classify as a bottom, knowing that it might be considered less than what some are looking for.  Of course, it goes both ways.  Some do seek only bottoms, so I suppose it equals out.
 
The fantasy vrs reality....... Now THERE'S an issue.  Personally, I don't care what anyone wants to create in their own mind, use it as their private fantasy world for wanking material, etc.  Everyone needs an outlet, so to speak.  I just find that, when I encounter it over and over, frankly, I get somewhat tired of it.  Nothing but wasted time and effort, and after a while, it gets rather old.
 
One of the qualities that I appreciate more and more amongst those who accurrately describe themselves as submissives...... and hold on to your hat, because this is going to tick some people off....... is that they are willing to do the WORK.  I know, I know...... A terrible four letter word! 
 
By that, I'm not talking about service submissives.  Those are too far and few between anyway.  I'm talking about those who are actively willing to do something.  Anything.  Do some research, read a book, attend a munch, get out in the community, meet with others who share their interests, heck, start a post about a relevant topic.  In this day and age, there is a distinct difference between those who will put forth a little effort, and those who just sit back and expect all the answers given to them.  In a r/t dynamic, how many of Us would allow our submissives to sit back, while We do everything for them?

(in reply to MistressNoName)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/28/2007 6:35:58 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		This leads to part two.
 
BTW, pixel, again, My sincerest congratulations in your collaring!

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

I think you read the OP correctly.  It takes a lot of introspection for a person to recognize they are genuinely submissive and for them to understand the difference between the fantasy and the reality of this lifestyle.  Then comes the process of gaining experience to discover one's actual limits; the ones where they perceive they are at vs where they will eventually be or move in a direction toward.  The two can be very different as I've discovered in my own journey.

I can empathize with your frustration and can readily understand where it comes from as you meet people who are moving through their journeys in life on their way toward discovering who they really are.  Whether you realize it or not, or even intend to, perhaps part of your role in life is to help some of them toward that end of self discovery? 
 
I have to wonder if women who are seeking aren't in a position to help those with little experience to take a closer look at themselves?  I can readily see where a woman could help them examine who they are as part of what they must do to earn their place to serve.  In a very real sense, doesn't a woman do that in some way in choosing a submissive; each woman to her own methods?
 
I find myself pondering if there isn't some way to help those who have it in their heart to serve a woman to move beyond the stereotypes faster (as seen in the media and other places), so they can be available and open to the real world of being submissive to a compatible woman in this lifestyle that would love to have them as hers.
 
 - pixel


Since I mentioned WORK in the above, these highlighted comments are very much a focus.  In the prior writings, it was said that not all submissives are viewable on the boards.  A point I will give you.  Unfortunately, the trend exists on the forum as well as in the mail.  As any Domme will tell you, the things you see on the boards are nothing compared to what it received in their in box.
 
How many times have We heard, "Just because I'm a submissive, doesn't mean I'm YOUR submissive"?  It's a very accurrate statement, and I fully believe in it.  The great thing about it is that it goes both ways.  Just because I am a Dominant, doesn't mean I am every submissive's Dominant, and therefore not responsible for taking the time to educate everyone the same way as I would My own.  Not every submissive's journey is My responsibility.  In fact, it is theirs.  Lady Hugs said it best in a post She made some time ago.  Experience, education, and skilled learned in this lifestyle wasn't handed out.  It was sought after and earned.
 
Having said that, anyone would be hard pressed to fnd an instance of any time that I have had an honest question land in My mailbox, that I didn't reply with an honest answer.  Whether it be about the lifestyle, techniquies, My own personal situation, or even just My opinion on a topic.  Many times, an answer is best relayed by referencing a book or an article where that person can read information for themselves, but I still consider that an answer to their question.  Like I said earlier, not everything should be handed to everyone on a silver platter.  However, I do draw the line on questions like, "How would you fuck Me with a strap on"?  Lately, My answer to those kinds of questions is, present yourself, bare your ass, and I'll show you.  Tends to get rid of the instant gratification junkies.
 
I suppose it is My own view that, if there are gems out there in the rough, it really is up to them how much they shine.  It is in their own hands to do the polishing, and not try to get the semi-gloss that might be achieved by getting the stone buffed by everyone else.

(in reply to pixelslave)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/28/2007 9:04:00 PM   
ocilla


Posts: 1764
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
How many times have We heard, "Just because I'm a submissive, doesn't mean I'm YOUR submissive"?  It's a very accurrate statement, and I fully believe in it.  The great thing about it is that it goes both ways.  Just because I am a Dominant, doesn't mean I am every submissive's Dominant, and therefore not responsible for taking the time to educate everyone the same way as I would My own.  Not every submissive's journey is My responsibility. 


First I will qualify my forthcoming comments with an explaination - I am an"emerging" Domme, very wet behind the ears still, but I have been dominant for a very long time.  I have most of my professional life always taken on apprentices, and interns and I love to mentor, coach and shine a person with potential into realizing their wildest dreams and along the way helping me acheive mine as well.  Sounds familiar huh?  I am rather well known for being particularly good at cultivating talent and as a result have folks knocking on my door all the time.  

One key I learned very early on is to be selective in who I take under my wing.  It takes a whole lot out of me and so I have learned to save my energy for folks who will be able to do the most with what I have to share.  I used to spend more time trying to inspire those who were not at the right place to receive what I have to teach but eventually I learned that it was a waste of my energy and now I send an poor fit on thier way summarily feeling that it is best for us both.  There has to be a good match on many levels though and I have to see the potential in the person and know that there will be some reciprocity.  Otherwise I could spend all my time, pouring my energy into others with nothing in it to recharge me.  In my salad days, I did pour myself into training and developing whoever came along and presented themselves but found myself angry and feeling used.  So I learned to pick folks who would be appreciative and make me proud by their accomplishments - whether working with me or later once they had moved out from under my protective wing.  There has to be some sort of exchange and reciprocity or I can not sustain myself and ideally thrive. 

_____________________________

Ocilla

Nature is not a place to visit. It is home.
~ Gary Snyder

It takes a kinky village...

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/28/2007 11:23:08 PM   
pixelslave


Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
BTW, pixel, again, My sincerest congratulations in your collaring!


Thank you Lady Pact!
 

quote:


Not every submissive's journey is My responsibility.  In fact, it is theirs. Lady Hugs said it best in a post She made some time ago.  Experience, education, and skilled learned in this lifestyle wasn't handed out.  It was sought after and earned.


I'll readily agree that as individuals, we are each responsible for our own personal growth.

 
quote:


I suppose it is My own view that, if there are gems out there in the rough, it really is up to them how much they shine.  It is in their own hands to do the polishing, and not try to get the semi-gloss that might be achieved by getting the stone buffed by everyone else.


To a large extent, I see this as a two-way street.  Mentoring a submissive who is willing to do the work that is needed to improve himself, guiding and directing him along the way as he polishes himself, develops his skills, and assigning the other lessons you may wish him to learn about his submission, can be both rewarding and self-serving to the needs of a Dominant. 
 
I see a synergy in this type of interaction between the Domme and the "submissive in the rough".  With the two working together toward the same goals, the submissive advances faster, the Domme gets more of her needs met, gets them met sooner, and gets them met exactly as she desires!  To me, this seems like a win-win situation for both.
 
 - pixel
 
    Collared by Majik on  6-23-07


_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/29/2007 12:54:18 AM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		"If you don't take care and time to find the Dom/me you want and need, you will end up with the Dom/me you deserve.."

Here I'm quoting myself, from a posting I made some time ago on another BDSM website. You can swap the 'Dom/me' word for the word 'submissive'.

Labels and definitions are nice, and convenient, they help us fill out our profiles and make them (we think) pleasant and interesting to read, but they are and only ever can be words. Words are wonderful things, they come cheap, and they can arouse a vast range of emotions and feelings within ourselves and within others, but words are also like intentions, they need action and fulfilment to have any sort of lasting value to someone.

It can be BDSM, it can be D/s, but basically here we're talking about something which falls under the umbrella term of the 'alternative lifestyle', a lifestyle which is based on the assumption of a role which takes in a wide variety of human behaviour, games, rituals and kinks as a way of interacting with others, such things we assume are not connected with "normal" society, or 'vanilla', of which we are all still members.

How much you embrace this 'alternative lifestyle' depends only on you, your needs and preferences and your own individual circumstances. However there will always be 'vanilla', and I have found in my experience that many of those who have sought to replace 'vanilla' with the 'alternative lifestyle' only end up divorcing themselves from reality.

I have been connected with BDSM for all my adult life - connected here means being aware, it doesn't necessarily mean experience. I have never lived, ate and slept BDSM 24/7, it is only just one integral element of me, the person I am and my life, nothing more.

You know, sometimes I can only laugh and shake my head at those who come into this community expecting a panacea with which to escape the vanilla world. They come into the community like middle-aged housewives enter a supermarket with carrier bags and a shopping list. They approach Collarme in very much the same way as they do their online grocery shopping or entering auctions on e-Bay. They go for the labels, run off some sort of checklist, and have this very consumerist attitude and foolish belief that they will get exactly what they want often at the expense of someone else's needs, expectations and happiness.

How many times have Dommes received messages that read like shopping lists, or worse, like letters to Santa written by naive children? And how many times have submissives been approached by Dom/mes who expect the 'finished product', i.e. submission as they want, there waiting on a plate, ready for them to enjoy?

This 'transactional approach' can work quite well if you're only meeting someone for a play session or to engage in one particular activity, but most of us here I assume want something more, we want the relationship that goes with it.

Sometimes I feel that there's too much focus on the activities and not enough focus on the one thing which really matters - the mind. This to me is the starting point for any relationship, be it BDSM or vanilla. And when you find that connection between two minds all the labels and the definitions become unimportant.

Finding that person on Collarme is only just a very small part of the beginning, and the beginning is working on that harmony of two minds, establishing friendship, trust, confidence and clear, open lines of communication. And this is even before going into role and being either dominant or submissive. And the one thing a role needs is practice. I very much view the relationship between say a Domme and a male submissive in very much the same way as one between a director and and actress, where the role of the male submissive is being guided and defined and shaped by his Domme, who herself gains more experience through the guiding, shaping and defining and guides the submissive to give her what she really wants and needs, and through this, what the submissive really wants and needs.

No two people are ever alike, we are all individuals, which is why, no matter how experienced we are, with someone new we always start in the same place - at the beginning.

Therefore in response to the OP, it's okay to be happy and content with the definitions and labels and to find relationships within these terms. I don't feel that there are any less 'genuine' submissive hearts as a result of the Internet, only more people I would define as 'happy shoppers'.

_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/29/2007 3:05:06 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Again, thanks to those who took the time to read and reply.  One box I would hope I wouldn't close Myself in is thinking My opinion is the only one out there.
 
Stella, I did very much like your reference to the 'shopping list', and I did chuckle about it at first.  Then, the more I thought about it, I think in a sense it is true, at least in some basic sense.  There are certain preferences that I would like to see met (for My own case at least).  Male rather than female.  Submissive, rather than bottom.  Local, rather than half way around the world.  Single, rather than married.  To some point, that so-called shopping list isn't such a bad idea.  After all, if you're looking for something, you kind of have to have an idea of what it is.
 
As I said earlier, the OP was essentially two fold.  One being the submissive vrs bottom issue, and the other being something of a quality issue.  How many times do We see a new Dominant profile pop up, with someone who decides to slap "Master" on themselves, and then find out that, well, they really don't know squat?  Threads abound on the subject, and over and over again, We give the same advice.  To a lesser extent, why should it be different just because someone slaps submissive on a profile?  Of course, they are a bit safer, since most of them aren't holding a whip, but you get the idea.
 
We do all start at the same place... The beginning.  However, the word 'beginning' isn't especially the focus of the phrase.  The verb is start, which implies action in some form.
 
Though, pixel's idea of a franchise for "Build A Sub" doesn't sound half bad either.

(in reply to stella40)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/29/2007 6:47:21 AM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


Stella, I did very much like your reference to the 'shopping list', and I did chuckle about it at first.  Then, the more I thought about it, I think in a sense it is true, at least in some basic sense.  There are certain preferences that I would like to see met (for My own case at least).  Male rather than female.  Submissive, rather than bottom.  Local, rather than half way around the world.  Single, rather than married.  To some point, that so-called shopping list isn't such a bad idea.  After all, if you're looking for something, you kind of have to have an idea of what it is.
 


I wasn't quite referring to such things in this 'shopping list' idea, as I feel all that you have listed here are very real and perfectly normal expectations.

The 'happy shoppers' to me are those that want the Domme who wears corsets and boots, who will use a riding crop and flogger on them, penetrate them anally with a strap-on dildo, make them wear panties, humiliate them, etc. These are the sort of demands which would be interchangeable with any Domme, in fact it doesn't matter to them who is the Domme, it could be anyone.

Proof of this comes from messages I receive every so often (despite the words transgendered, submissive and having a Domme clearly written on my profile), for example:

'Dear Mistress. I am a sub. Please force me to eat ur pussy.'

'Dear sub. Are you prepared to be extremely patient?' (my response).

'Ma'am.. I am an experienced male submissive in TX, into CBT, floggings, and strap-on sex. I can accomodate.'

'Sorry. My broomstick is being serviced.' (my response).

I sometimes feel that CM should open up a section for Pro-Dommes and those Dommes seeking tributes, but arranged in the same way as e-Bay. Dommes could put their profile photos on these profiles and list activities which they are offering, and subs could come online and bid for various activities. This would keep a lot of these 'happy shoppers' very happy.

Obviously here I'm not being serious. It wouldn't work, and simply because, unlike so many of these 'happy shoppers' Dommes are not only interested in how they are served, but also more importantly, who serves them.

_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/29/2007 7:39:22 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Two things, most of the pool of people you have to choose from aren't compatible so of course the ones that are seem to be the cream of the crop to you. Just remember that to someone else with different needs they would be soured milk instead.

Two, this is a text based medium so there are plenty of really good people here who just aren't any good at expressing themselves in written language. Are you aware that your criteria has come to include being really capable as a writer?

Now I'm a femsub but the same problem occurs for us, if we only pick people who are really good with words then we aren't picking people who are math minded, good with their hands, capable of building houses, repairing cars etc. So if you are interested in someone who can write you long, soulful emails then pick online from the ones who come across really well online.

If you are interested in someone who can mow your lawn then you do best to ask for pictures of his lawn and garden.

Interested in someone who knows what to tell the mechanic when the car makes a funny noise? Don't pick a writer who knows nothing about cars.

By deciding that only the ones who write well online are the cream, you are missing people with all kinds of other skills who just happen not to be writers, editors, psychologists, advertising execs etc. Which is fine as long as you don't also want them to be horticultural experts, auto mechanics, medical techs, architects, carpenters or anything else. Because you can't have it all in one.

(in reply to Suleiman)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/29/2007 9:46:55 AM   
Bonafied


Posts: 16
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline 		Celester43: If there has been a rational logical and resonable reposnse to the OP question, it is your. Congratulations, and I say that with deep respect.

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/29/2007 10:56:16 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

By deciding that only the ones who write well online are the cream, you are missing people with all kinds of other skills who just happen not to be writers, editors, psychologists, advertising execs etc. Which is fine as long as you don't also want them to be horticultural experts, auto mechanics, medical techs, architects, carpenters or anything else. Because you can't have it all in one.


i dont see what someones qualifications or job has to do with how well they express themself. i am not a writer or editor yet i have had comments about my posts. Not bad going for an ordinary contruction worker.  To me what makes a great post, isn`t the spelling or the grammar, but the content and the insight someone brings to the forums.
This is why i smile when someone says they overlook poorly written posts, these may be hard work, yet every now and then i will read one that really makes me think about a given topic.

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Have I cornered Myself in a box? - 6/29/2007 12:12:20 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear LadyPact, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In my mind's eyes I see, that in a natural need to communicate, we're all prone to use what ever is currently at our immediate disposal to use, in this case -- terms, labels and explainations as to what 'in general' we do as a larger society/community.  We use Dominant, submissive, flogger and other terms which the dictionary would argue in disagreement of how we 'use' them in our 'special' vocabulary.
 
A keen ear, from an exposure to the real 'scene' verses the computer texted 'scene' where slaves kneel beyond 20 minutes and are able to gracefully assend into a walk, with hips swaying in a sultry tempo across the polished floors and so forth; are really great for novels, porn stories and the like.  Doing said positions, the attitude and behavior is not painted with sex appeal, sultry intentions and the like.
Romance and sex are the 'selling' points to a great many people who look into S&M, Debauchery and or BDSM and or Master-slave and or D/s.
 
I consider your 'box' as a 'kit' of unassembled parts.  Much like the lads have model railroad kits or car model kits, some parts are easy to recognize and understand the function of the 'parts.'  Yet, as authentic as these kits may appear--the real car or real railroad train have much more to offer, as far as authenticity and copying and or modeling.
 
We come into the lifestyle with a box of loose parts and we put them together to create a complete kit.  We are able to take these contents and make choices in how this 'kit' is to look, to represent and how to function.  Much like these automobile model kits, they come with a variety of options--stock (off the showroom like model) and or custom (which is how you dress it out like).  Much like how we come into the scene, we do explore the 'stock' side of the lifestyle.  Once we become more independent of the 'community stock as far as style, protocols and such'--we custom build our lives based on what foundation (e.g. stock car before custom adding and create a new car from recognized stock or known car brands, models, styles).
 
True, a car is a car -- what makes it our car is how we add to it.  For as many cars that look identical to ours--they are not, thus they are more correctly 'similiar in appearance' --only the additions we make to it, to include license plates, vanity plates, extra stickers, etc., makes it unique and one of a kind.
 
It takes time to understand that labels, titles and such are necessary as to get a sense of where in the experience levels of learning and earning knowledge and skills a person is.  Much like education, knowledge and skills are earned through doing as much as it is reading but, it is 'ours' once we have a keen understanding of how everything works for us as an individual.  Life's lessons teach a great deal which only helps us in BDSM and or D/s circumstances and situations.  Maturity cannot be forced.
 
Labels, titles, descriptions are just aids in communication.  What we do with those descriptions, labels, titles and such--either represents us well or acts in contrary to what we are.  Back to the dictionary--
Dominant and submissive are often seen as a state of behavior.  A flogger is someone who whips -- not the whip itself.  I use these examples as to demonstrate how lables, titles and descriptions that are correct are skewed in our lifestyle and yet--correct terms for our society, community and or the scene. 
 
I can say factually, that regardless of titles, labels and or descriptions -- I am just 'me.'
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 32
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