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.limits. - 6/29/2007 12:22:43 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Old question - Limits.
 
I just read a thread where I saw the statement that 'A limits is a limit.  It is not meant to be pushed.' (c.LadyHeart)
I didn't want to hijack the thread, but that was a strange statement/thing to me and not something I would agree with, which is maybe something I need to reaccess?  Maybe I just misread the statement - but it seems pretty straight forward to me.
Is there no such thing as hard limits and soft limits anymore?  Is there only 'Limits'.  Full Stop?  If something is unknown territory, if it isn't known as a limit, what do you call it?
 
Examples - For me, a hard limit is one that I won't ever do, so sure, don't push it.  Like Scat, or human ashtray.
A Soft or undefined limit is one I may be open to being 'pushed' to achieve or perform.  Hypnosis is an example for me.  What are your definitions?
 
Peace
the.dark.

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 12:30:29 PM   
Rover


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Status: offline 		WIITWD is frought with terms that don't really mean what they say.  And often times, "limits" falls into that category.  For sake of argument, we often refer to hard and soft limits, defined as you have.
 
Personally, I'm a bit more literal and fall into "a limit is a limit" crowd, and if it's not a limit call it something else.  Consequently, I opt for limits and limitations.  Limits being those boundaries that will not be crossed, and limitations being those things that are impediments and may require a bit of pushing.
 
While we're on the topic, I'm disappointed that the terms are overwhelmingly applied to scening issues.  It's my opinion that they exist in much greater numbers, and are far more important, in our everyday lives... everything from personal issues to interpersonal issues.
 
John

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 12:34:26 PM   
ELUSIVE1


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I can't imagine how anyone would grow in this lifestyle without pushing limits...mine are constantly changing...not the'hardlimits' which are the same as most on here...but for example--I used to say no needle play--Saturday I had a syringe stuck down straight through each nipple...not sideways like a nipple ring, straight down through...and MP is ordering a larger gauge...I joke that my hard limits are power tools...don't see that changing anytime soon...


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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 12:37:11 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		If someone said "A limit is a limit" i would almost have to assume they explored all their soft ones and have figured out whether or not they like them, don't like them, and/or have reclassified them to "can do" or "a limit".  Maybe someone who thinks like this is just closed minded and doesn't want to even be open to trying something they even remotely dislike, even if they know they could possibly do it, if only for the dom's pleasure.  i see these types of subs/slave as in it basically for their own needs being met and not really willing to negotiate to please their doms. 

i agree with you that you cannot know what's a soft limit if it's unknown territory, just in my opinion this is very close minded thinking. Hard limits on the other hand are easier to ascertain - generally one knows for sure when it's something extreme (to them) that absolutely revolts them and just the thought of it sends shudders throughout their entire body - like scat or breath play (panic in my case).  It's hard to judge anyones limits without knowing their history i once knew a sub who had oral sex as a limit - when she explained why to me i could understand her need to make it a limit.

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 12:39:08 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

Personally, I'm a bit more literal and fall into "a limit is a limit" crowd, and if it's not a limit call it something else.  Consequently, I opt for limits and limitations.  Limits being those boundaries that will not be crossed, and limitations being those things that are impediments and may require a bit of pushing.

 
Thanks for the bluntness Rover (as ever) - your limit/limitations is an attractive concept.
 
quote:

While we're on the topic, I'm disappointed that the terms are overwhelmingly applied to scening issues.  It's my opinion that they exist in much greater numbers, and are far more important, in our everyday lives... everything from personal issues to interpersonal issues.

 
Totally in agreement and thank you for bringing that up.
 
Peace
the.dark.

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 12:47:15 PM   
mstrjx


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Status: offline 		A soft limit would be something that would be acceptable given certain circumstances.  What those would be would depend on the person/partners involved.

A hard limit is something that is not acceptable at this time.

I believe the 'at this time' is the key.  There are things that I have done that at one time I would have said would have been a firmer limit.  Time and getting my mind wrapped around it changed it.

Even things that you say are 'never' acceptable are always worth taking the proverbial pulse from time to time.

'It was a hard limit six months ago, what about now?  Still no?  Fine, I might check back in another six months.'  The alternative is that whomever is setting that limit, of their own accord, expresses an interest in that activity.

Jeff

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 12:48:56 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		For me there's "limits" and "room for negotiation"

My limits are based on ME- not who I am with or the situation.  With a particular person, I might decide not to negotiate on some things or not allow certain things.  That doesn't mean they are limits OF MINE, simply that the room for negotiation with that person at that time is zero.

I think that keeps things simple.

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 1:11:27 PM   
MrrPete


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Status: offline 		A hard limit is a hard limit except when it isn't a hard limt - understand?

i have a firend that has a hard limit on face slapping and after discussing the
reason I fully respect her limit and will never approach her about it again. It has
to do with abuse at a young age. That's clear enough.

BUT I rarely run into someone who has such a welldefined limit and reason for it.

A lot of profiles on CM have electrical Play and Needle Play in the Hard Limits are.
upon discussion [hmm that's twice he's used that term] I find that is put there simply
because their preconcived idea of what is involved is out in left field. They not only
DON"T know what is invovled they've never went to a seminar/demo to find out.

And even if they have they've never tried it with me.

I discussed [there's that pesky term agian] a Face Slapping hard limit with a regular playmate.
the next time we played I "slapped" her without warning and she never even flinched let alone complain.

My method didn't match her preconceived idea. I put her chin in the web of my thumb. I laid my
other four fingers flat a gianst her cheek. Then raised the fingers about 1/4 inch and lightly tapped her
face. I did it a few more times lifting my fingers higher each time. Then suddenly, and I was watching fo it,
she gave me my payoff. A very quick flash of anger. It was fleeting, here and gone, but there and i saw it.
Without letting her know what I saw in her face I ended the face slappping and moved on to something else.

Another clue that hard limits can be "pushed" is the length of the list.  A long list of hard limits is an indication
that they are a newbie and probably hasn't done any of them.

At any rate they should be discussed to determine the validity of the claimed hard limit.

If it's someone I've never played with i won't do anything other than negotiate the scene the firs time.







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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 1:14:50 PM   
thetammyjo


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Status: offline 		I, too, see hard limits and soft limits.

Sometimes as we get more experience, limits change categories; I never count on them doing that myself.

Thus I was pleasantly surprised when knife play went from hard limit for Fox, to soft limit, to something I can do whenever I like though I know why it was a hard limit (and still is with anyone else) so I am careful.

They can change in the other direction too. Anal was a go for Fox but over time it's become a hard limit out of necessary -- result of damage that we can't afford to correct surgicially.

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 1:19:58 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

A hard limit is a hard limit except when it isn't a hard limt - understand?



i disagree with this. A hard limit is a hard limit PERIOD.  It is never ever negotiable.  If anyone were to go even near it i would loose trust in that person and safe word my ass out and never be with them again. i would try hard as hell not to have a santa clause list of hard limits, but the few i put on there i EXPECT to be repsected.  i have had soft limits go to hard limits - breath play being one - i tried it totally paniced to the point of an anxiety attack therefore it is now a hard limit - i never want to feel that way again. Scat is a hard limit - it justis never going to happen - if it is even suggested i would make it clear it was a hard limit - if it was still pursued i would be offended and made it known that if having that was such a desire to him we should part ways because never in a million years was i going to indulge that desire for him.. period.  If anyone tested a known, stated well beforehand hard limit of mine during a scene i would end it as soon as it started and leave.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 6/29/2007 1:22:09 PM >

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 1:26:35 PM   
slaveluci


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Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		When Master and I entered into this M/s relationship, we had thoroughly discussed the concept of limits.  I had expressed to Him that there were a couple of things that I would NEVER do.  These things were NOT negotiable now nor would they EVER be.  He agreed to that as they weren't things He had any desire to do/have me do anyway.  I told Him that, other than those couple of things, anything else that He desired me to do or participate in would be done without complaint or hesitation.  That was the agreement we made and have lived by.  I didn't come up with a list a mile long of "soft limits" or anything like that.  I stated the hard ones, He accepted that, and everything else is open for experimentation.  It's been a great ride thus far...........slave luci

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RE: Limits - 6/29/2007 1:58:11 PM   
amayos


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From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Is there no such thing as hard limits and soft limits anymore? Is there only 'Limits'. Full Stop? If something is unknown territory, if it isn't known as a limit, what do you call it?




I enjoy the simplicity of one stating only serious fears or concerns. That is to say, what things would bring a servant harm or trauma. This takes the dubious game playing involved with hierarchal limits out of the picture and draws clear, concise lines. As for unknown territory, I see no reason to call it anything but that.

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 2:01:26 PM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline 		Greetings
 
I have said before, and I say again; I, personally, do not have limits. I refuse to place restrictions on myself and what I may or may not experience in life.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 2:04:26 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone
Greetings

I have said before, and I say again; I, personally, do not have limits. I refuse to place restrictions on myself and what I may or may not experience in life.

I wish you well

melissa

And I will give you the same response I gave last time you said that- if you are sincerely open to the experience of harming my nephews, or my partner, then I limit myself to being around you and will certainly do everything I can to prevent you from doing that.

What about my ears?  I have tubes in my ears and can't get water in them, or will have ear infections and all sorts of bad things and I really don't want to risk losing more hearing than I already have.  I consider that a limit of mine.  Do you think I'm placing a restriction on myself to what I may experience in life?  Do you think that's a bad thing? 

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 2:05:39 PM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

A hard limit is a hard limit except when it isn't a hard limt - understand?



I agree with this, some of my hard limits disappeared once he and I 'discussed' what it was holding me back on some things and most importantly why it held me back.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i disagree with this. A hard limit is a hard limit PERIOD.  It is never ever negotiable.  If anyone were to go even near it i would loose trust in that person and safe word my ass out and never be with them again. i would try hard as hell not to have a santa clause list of hard limits, but the few i put on there i EXPECT to be repsected.  i have had soft limits go to hard limits - breath play being one - i tried it totally paniced to the point of an anxiety attack therefore it is now a hard limit - i never want to feel that way again. Scat is a hard limit - it justis never going to happen - if it is even suggested i would make it clear it was a hard limit - if it was still pursued i would be offended and made it known that if having that was such a desire to him we should part ways because never in a million years was i going to indulge that desire for him.. period.  If anyone tested a known, stated well beforehand hard limit of mine during a scene i would end it as soon as it started and leave.


So even if a hard limit is brought up to you, do you discuss it or is it a blunt no-how-no-way?
I ended up learning that with him I haven't any limits & that is a really cool feeling  . Of course there are things I won't do, but I don't need to state them as limits.
They are things that would harm me, so it isn't even a part of our dynamic. People get a bit outraged at someone stating they've no limits but IMO it is silly to announce that chopping off a leg is a limit. It is not realistic within our relationship to worry about something like that so I can drop all thought of having limits. I hope that makes sense.

*edited because I wasn't done.

< Message edited by cjenny -- 6/29/2007 2:13:53 PM >

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 2:09:32 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
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Status: offline 		LA, do you think that there are times when people take a position based upon emotion... the way things make them feel... rather than with logic?  I do.
 
That's not a criticism, just an explanation to make sense of what, on the surface, does not.
 
John

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 2:12:32 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
LA, do you think that there are times when people take a position based upon emotion... the way things make them feel... rather than with logic?  I do.

That's not a criticism, just an explanation to make sense of what, on the surface, does not.

John

Well sure, constantly.  That's why I love being online, I can feel free to be a shark and not feel bad about eliminating the emotional BS that I have to smile and nod through in many situations offline.

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 2:13:39 PM   
alta


Posts: 3
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Status: offline 		One must be careful on pushing hard limits. To do that you would have to Known the person very well, otherwise you can cross the Rubicon and may not will to regret it or they may not. Some peoples fears, and pasts or core beliefs it is far wiser to let sleeping dogs lay.

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 2:14:25 PM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
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From: Anchorage Alaska
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Greetings LuckyAlbatross
 
Once again, we are back to the same area that people seem to fall into when faced with no clear and precise answer to a simple question. I am, however, surprised that you would lower yourself into that same group.
 
Your first post on here was a perfect example of your intelligence. You said “My limits are based on ME- not who I am with or the situation”
 
My answer was not so different; only in words. Yet, you feel the need to bring up the same argument that is always brought up when the questions of limits is expressed. It is a shame; I had always thought you above that.
 
enjoy the rest of the thread
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

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RE: .limits. - 6/29/2007 2:20:40 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Old question - Limits.
 
I just read a thread where I saw the statement that 'A limits is a limit.  It is not meant to be pushed.' (c.LadyHeart)

 
dark,
I agree with that statement, but my idea of limits seems to be different than most. As LA said, my limits are about me, not about the partner that I am with. They are things that I will not do...not now...not tomorrow....not ever. A limit is a boundary line beyond which something or someone cannot or is not permitted to go. It is not something to be toyed with or pushed. I see little point in calling something a limit if it is not indeed really a limit. My limits are not about things that just squick me out, they are not things I am simply fearful of or have never had an opportunity to try. They are things that would be morally, ethically, physically or mentally damaging to me in a way that I do not feel it would be possible to recover from.

All other activities are up for negotiation....negotiation being the key word. Just because they are not on my limit list does not necessarily mean they are something that I will do, at least not in this time frame or possibly with this particular person.

edited to add, I do not understand why my font changes sometimes when I follow your posts...and I've tried three times to change it back...

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/29/2007 2:28:33 PM >

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