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RCdc -> .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 4:28:50 PM)
I know, I know – another U.K thread on the car bombs. And maybe I am ranting (a little) But I didn’t want to hijack the political agendas of some people who seem destined to go on and on about AQ, Scottish Accents or left vs. right wing views. What is the damn point of all that? There were children queuing at Glasgow, with their parents for god sake – just like there are kids playing when the jets fly over Baghdad. How terrified do you think they were? – Let alone the adults.(I don’t really give a flying fuck if that seems over simplistic or tugging at heart strings). I am all for making jokes in a bad moment, and yes, laughing at ourselves is healthy and gets us by – but for crying out loud – why does everyone have to gang up on each other instead of standing in support? Have we all really gone so low? Our new prime minister, Gordon Brown said earlier – quote: "I know the British people will stand together, united and resolute," So why aren’t we? How comes the terrorists are so fucking successful? You know why? Because they do stand united. I heard it said just now that they are ‘bonded’. Unlike ‘us’. I am not as highly intellectually up to date as Darcy is with politics. All I know is that a handful of radical thinking peeps are trying to cause death, carnage and interfere with life and cause chaos by filling cars with petrol, propane and nails. In the Glasgow incident, the men have been caught, arrested and placed in custody – well, one has because the other one is in ‘critical’ condition in hospital after being on fire and his ‘alleged’ suicide belt failed to go off. The UK is now raised from severe (attack likely) to ‘critical’ alert – this means that there is an attack ‘expected imminently’. I am to travel into and through London in a few days. I will be attending some major landmarks on my way through that would be high points of possible attack. But I am still going to go. Maybe it sounds bizarre to say I don’t really care right now for the religiousness, or the politics of it all - after all, politics affects everything in my life and it would be naïve of me to think otherwise. Well, yeah, it might be AQ. It might be some secret cell. It might be some anti Gay Movement thang… and for those conspiracy theorists – lets bring MI5 into the mix. However, an attack is an attack, people will get hurt, people will die. I know these radical ‘people’ have an agenda. I know that they want to instil fear into people. Am I ‘afraid’ about travelling later this week? Yes – but no more afraid than I am when I take a car journey, or eat a suspicious curry. These people can affect my life, but that doesn’t mean I will surrender to them. I am going to live my life regardless of what other people would like to force upon me. Well until I die anyway…[;)] the.dark.

NorthernGent -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 4:50:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark How comes the terrorists are so fucking successful? You know why? Because they do stand united. I heard it said just now that they are ‘bonded’. Unlike ‘us’. Right, Dark. First off, what success? Some bell-end has just set himself on fire and is now lying in hospital. Hardly the measure of success. If there was a genuine, concerted threat from a nation, or a group such as Al-Quaeda, then you would see a united Britain who wouldn't accept it. The point is that there is no concerted threat. There are a few nutters intent on doing some damage. So what are you going to do in the face of the four convicted bombers and these two clowns setting themselves on fire? What exactly are you going to unite against? Who is the target? The muslim community, of which 99.9% have never been anywhere near a bomb, or a burning car? or are you proposing we all go charging 'round the streets like lynch mobs searching for these loan nutters? Britain is not "united" on this matter because, thankfully, most of us are sensible, level-headed and reasonable enough to know that 99.9% of the muslim community have no desire to cause problems in this country. The 0.1% who do want to cause problems use crude devices which contradict the view that a sophisticated organisation is at work. There is no group to be united against. Now, we all know that the rabble would love a chance to use this as a "reason" for "revenge" attacks and the smashing up of Mosques as per what we've seen in recent years. The question is: how many minds can be easily swayed by the acts of four or five people to the extent that they stand "united" in the smashing up of Mosques? Edited to add: You mention women and kids - yeah it's not on, but what about the women and kids of the 99.9% of British Muslims who are just living their lives and are no threat to any of us. Should they have to face the potential consequences of a "united" front? i.e. harassment, the smashing up Mosques and violence? There is only one way you can prevent these attacks and that is to kick every British Muslim out of the country. When they've gone and the next bomber is white (e.g. Copeland), are you going to kick every Londoner out of the country?

RCdc -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:06:02 PM)
Thing is - you can say they arent successful, but they are. Iraq is a big example of that. Terrorists are causing people agony - and I am not just looking at AQ - I am looking way further than that - you should know that of me by now NG - which is why I never stated muslims - I said terrorists - and yes, I do include people like bush in that collective and his whole stupid hate campaign. Are you now telling me that muslims aren't 'british'? That we can't unite with them? Because the muslim peeps I know would like to unite with their christian 'brothers' against terrorism... just as I would like to see you and seeks 'unite'.(even if thats a fantasy[;)] - I mean 'dream') When I say unite - your immediate thought is I am talking about fighting an injustice. Your immediate thought is 'oh look - another attack on muslims' - love you to bits NG - but that is a big leap of something I certainly didn't say. I said TERRORISTS. It isn't just about that. It's about pulling together not shaking our fists at each other because someones a democrate and anothers a rep - maybe I am just fucked up to the back teeth with people blaming someone else or starting a conspiracy or trying to look for a scapegoat instead of looking on their own doorstep - because that's all those other threads turned into. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:21:14 PM)
I just saw you edited to add about my mentioning children - if you read, you will see I also included the children who have to deal with those lovely jets flying over their heads in baghdad - I am certainly not singling out 'british' children and quite frankly NG, am appalled you even insinuated that. But then that is politics for you hey - insinuating or second guessing what is really being said? I didnt want to hijack your political agenda with seeks or popeye or anyone else on those other threads - honestly The political threads that y'all are posting recently, with all the mud slinging and tongue poking are giving the House of Commons a good name! I just wanted to voice my thought that everyone is an ( )( ) for thinking that blaming anyone is going to make things better and just point out that it's not going to stop me and my life. I am still gonna go to London. I am still going to be friends with people regardless of them being 'New Labour', muslim, christian, gay or damn it NG - even you.[;)] the.dark.*

philosophy -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:24:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark These people can affect my life, but that doesn’t mean I will surrender to them. I am going to live my life regardless of what other people would like to force upon me. Well until I die anyway…[;)] the.dark. .....and at the end of the day that's how a people stand united and resolute in the face of such things. Essentially by not letting it affect their behaviour. Go to London, i did while the IRA were bombing it. i remember kicking glass out of the way in the aftermath of the bombing of the Post Office Tower. i was only a kid, but my mum took me to London anyway. A life lived in fear is no life at all.......... [edited for font reduction surgery]

Raechard -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:27:27 PM)
Ten to one those car bombs are the work of wannabe western jihadists. That’s the way it works someone in the UK who feels disenfranchised and has an axe to grind plants a bomb and someone in the Middle East takes credit for it. I doubt there is any real organisation because to have an organisation is to have your organisation unpicked at the seams by the western security services. Maybe groups of individuals following their heros but nothing more.

NorthernGent -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:31:41 PM)
My post wasn't about "look, another attack on muslims". I personally don't want to see this country turn into a shoot first ask questions later mentality, and that's a real possibility if there are calls for a "united" front - the herd mentality will find a target, and it will be British muslims. Speaking of Iraq, if anyone wants to go to Iraq to fight terrorism, then that's their call - I'm certainly not about to stand in their way. The alternative is to search out terrorists in this country, but the chances of identifying any are zero. In the meantime, let's keep it all in perspective. Talking of blaming others, well, Germany doesn't have these few nutters trying to cause damage over there. The link is our on-going involvement in a part of the world thousands of miles away. Someone has to take responsibility for that, and it has to be the people with the mentality where they think waltzing into other peoples' backyards is fair game. Ultimately, you go marching into people's homes and they won't stand for it. Something will come back with interest. I personally see this whole sorry mess as a product of our government's foreign policy and those who support it - mainly British conservatives. If there's anyone for me to stand together with, then it won't be the likes of Seeks, it will be with British muslims in opposition to our government's involvement in Iraq and those who support it.

RCdc -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:37:38 PM)
I travelled around London all the time during the IRA bombings too and my father worked on the underground. Maybe I am just remembering a different time, but people seemed to be far more vigilant back then than they are now? Maybe that's just my imagination though.[8\|] Something you said tho phil, was really profound (to me) hey - quote: A life lived in fear is no life at all.......... Maybe that is what I see so much and it's really heartbreaking. Too much fear and not enough 'getting on with it'. I guess that is what is meant about being united and resolute as you have noted - living in fear doesn't let you do that... conspiracy and the what ifs. Thanks for the lightbulb moment. the.dark.

NorthernGent -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:39:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I just saw you edited to add about my mentioning children - if you read, you will see I also included the children who have to deal with those lovely jets flying over their heads in baghdad - I am certainly not singling out 'british' children and quite frankly NG, am appalled you even insinuated that. But then that is politics for you hey - insinuating or second guessing what is really being said? That's not what I insinuated. I'm asking you to think about this united front because the herd mentality will find a target, and they will include women and children going about their business. There are plenty of examples of race attacks and smashing up Mosques. The lunatic fringe don't need any further encouragement such as that driven by the supposed need for a united front against terrorism.

RCdc -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:47:37 PM)
Fight terrorism in Iraq? We are the terrorists in Iraq! I can't believe the apathy of saying ' sure, go fight terrorism in Iraq, if that's your choice' and then saying 'well it's the governments fault anyway.' And please don't start blaming parties - doesnt matter if it is conservative or Mr Tony Blair[:'(] himself. That isn't the point of this thread to point fingers at the people you don't like. The terrorist is already within you if you let it affect you with fear. Peace the.dark.

Politesub53 -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:53:09 PM)
Germany did have an attempted terror attack around this time last year. Rucksacks on trains with gas canisters and cans of petrol..... sound familiar. The truth is the majority of these attacks are carried out by extermists and not the majority of muslims. Mainly those with a grievance with our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq. The latest evens were not carried out by highly trained terrorists, because they have shown that if they want a bomb to detonate, then it will do so.

RCdc -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 5:57:20 PM)
NG - it is you who are stating that we should and are 'leaving out' muslims - I never even mentioned muslims apart from the children of Baghdad(who aren't all muslim btw). Again I repeat I said terrorists. Unity doesn't mean excluding anyone. It means including everyone - you are the one assuming that it means to exclude. I really didn't want to hijack a thread to be a 'them and us' thread - I could go on any number of threads for that - I really wanted to attend the Gay Pride March today - but I couldn't due to it not being viable for me this weekend. Do you think they would have shunned me and told me not to come along and 'unite' with them if I had - just because I am hetro? Unity isn't a witch hunt - it's about supporting each other when fear would have you torn apart. the.dark.

NorthernGent -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 6:06:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Fight terrorism in Iraq? We are the terrorists in Iraq! I can't believe the apathy of saying ' sure, go fight terrorism in Iraq, if that's your choice' and then saying 'well it's the governments fault anyway.' It's not apathy, Dark. My disagreement with your united front stance is on the grounds that I'm not united with the government and their supporters on this particular issue. I couldn't be united with certain people in this country because we have opposing views on the nature of the problem and the solution. You do what you feel you have to do, and I'll do likewise. quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark And please don't start blaming parties - doesnt matter if it is conservative or Mr Tony Blair[:'(] himself. That isn't the point of this thread to point fingers at the people you don't like. The terrorist is already within you if you let it affect you with fear. Peace the.dark. Feel free to not blame anyone, but don't expect others to tow your line. Someone has to be held accountable for a) the deaths of Iraqis and b) placing the British people in danger. It's not about pointing fingers at the people I don't like, it's about holding people to account.

RCdc -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 6:17:07 PM)
Then hold yourself to account too. I am not against holding people to account. Bush should be tried for war crimes. So should Blair. But there are other threads for that. I know - maybe I am 'hopeful' that this thread doesn't degenerate into 'its their fault'...finger waggle. But maybe like the other thread running - I was looking for something a bit more positive than 'that damn conservative'. You are against 'uniting' yet you want to 'unite' against what you don't believe in with people you do? I would rather unite against fear, than pick on an individual race, party or orientation. Peace the.dark.

amaidiamond -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (6/30/2007 7:11:15 PM)
I'm still going into London tomorrow - it will take more than a few car bombs to keep me from my local fetish market

NorthernGent -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (7/1/2007 3:39:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Then hold yourself to account too. I am not against holding people to account. Bush should be tried for war crimes. So should Blair. But there are other threads for that. I know - maybe I am 'hopeful' that this thread doesn't degenerate into 'its their fault'...finger waggle. But maybe like the other thread running - I was looking for something a bit more positive than 'that damn conservative'. You are against 'uniting' yet you want to 'unite' against what you don't believe in with people you do? I would rather unite against fear, than pick on an individual race, party or orientation. Peace the.dark. Dark, can you explain your fear comment, please. That's the second time you've mentioned it and I don't have a clue on your meaning in this context. I think this is the crux of the conversation: a) You want everyone to unite against terrorism. b) I'm saying it's impossible because sections of the people you want to unite have completely different views on the nature of this problem. There are many people who hold strong views on this particular issue, and a call for a "united front" will not make these views disappear. It's not a question of being "positive". It's realism and strong opposing views. As for holding myself to account, I wasn't one of the 70% who backed this providing WMDs "existed" and the UN sanctioned it. Under no circumstances did I support this because the British government has been pulling these kind of stunts for a good 400 years, and they were always decisions in the interests of the upper echelons of British society. You imply I'm driven by emotion when you say "people I don't believe in". Well, these are facts: a) The British government invaded Iraq on a dossier of lies. b) They had the support of sections of British society. This thread won't degenerate into anything providing you accept that people are entitled to not tow your line of a united front. If you keep challenging me on this, then I'll argue my case. If, on the other hand, you accept I'm free to do as I please without the emotional blackmail, then I won't post on this thread again and you can have your united front - I'll have someone provide the tea and scones for you and your united friends so you can all have refreshments in between the self-congratulatory pats on the back ;-)

Politesub53 -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (7/1/2007 4:24:57 AM)
i think we should all stand united against terror, not in the sense of pointing finers, but in the sence of being vigilante and getting on with our daily life. Everyone has a vested interest to see terror attacks stopped. Sadly there isnt an alternative to vote for come election time. NG i know you blame the conservatives, but what about the left wing of the labour party,not whats now considered the left, but those who were once staunch in their views. So many in high office seem to have done a u-turn on their original ideals. The decision to go into iraq wasnt shared by all conservative minded people, and to suggest so is false. i would guess some of those on the left were more than happy to see Saddam removed from power. Sadly neither Bush or Blair listend to the very sound advice as to the outcome of such an action. On a personal level, i will be upset if you do stop posting, as while we are at different points on the spectrum. Without differing perspectives we dont have a forum. I always read your views as they make me challenge my own. Regards....politesub

SimplictyAtMe -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (7/1/2007 4:37:52 AM)
Terrorism has one goal...getting amuch larger opponent to give you respect as a threat, in order to make your cause seem like a righteous struggle. The incorrect response is to justify a criminal act as a war. The correct response is to treat terrorists as criminals. So far, the actions of the US have been exactly what Osama desired. Fairly stupid. You do NOT lend a terrorist the status of "enemy in war", for that is his goal. It wins his cause support.

NorthernGent -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (7/1/2007 4:42:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 i think we should all stand united against terror, not in the sense of pointing finers, but in the sence of being vigilante and getting on with our daily life. Everyone has a vested interest to see terror attacks stopped. Sadly there isnt an alternative to vote for come election time. For me, there is nothing to be vigilant against. This whole thing smacks of group conformity...."oooh, let's all stand together"....against what? It's like the petrol fiasco of a few years ago when everyone herded towards the loaves of bread - no sense to it whatsoever. This is just people wanting a common purpose in their lives - which in itself is not a big problem for me - the question is: who will be on the receiving end when the majority get their heads together? I haven't noticed anything different about England to be vigilant against. If you live in London, then fair enough, there's obviously a real threat. Outside of London, can anyone honestly tell me they feel under threat? I know in Manchester everyone is waltzing around without a care in the world. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 NG i know you blame the conservatives, I don't necessarily blame "the conservatives", I blame those who tend to support these kinds of forays into other peoples' countries, and they are largely drawn from the British conservative crowd. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 but what about the left wing of the labour party,not whats now considered the left, but those who were once staunch in their views. So many in high office seem to have done a u-turn on their original ideals. To an extent, I agree. Some politicians in the Labour Party acted in complete contradiction to the ideals of the Labour Party - solidarity and internationalism. Hence, this government should be held to account for the illegal invasion of Iraq. The grass roots of the party don't support this kind of bollocks though, can you say the same for the grass roots of the conservative party? Now, I'm not up-to-date on all things conservatism, but they have form for this kind of carry on. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 On a personal level, i will be upset if you do stop posting, as while we are at different points on the spectrum. Without differing perspectives we dont have a forum. I always read your views as they make me challenge my own. Regards....politesub Oh, I'm not about to stop posting on this forum, just this thread. I won't stand in the way of the united front, providing I'm not on the receiving end of the emotional blackmail i.e. "if you don't agree with our united front, then you're the problem".

NorthernGent -> RE: .unitedandresolute. .seeminglybollocks. (7/1/2007 4:55:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplictyAtMe Terrorism has one goal...getting amuch larger opponent to give you respect as a threat, in order to make your cause seem like a righteous struggle. This doesn't make sense to me. Independence is a righteous struggle. Many people in England had sympathy with the ideals of the original IRA. The French used terrorism tactics against the Nazis. What clouds this particular issue is the fact that the terrorists are not Iraqis. Most of those captured in Iraq are Saudis. Most of Al-Quaeda are Saudis and North Africans. There is a link to Western foreign policy in the Middle East. These people believe that unless they get the West out of their region, they'll always be subservient to Western business interests. Whether or not you believe this is a noble cause is debatable. As per usual, it's always the wrong people who end up facing the consequences - Shell and BP win themselves a few healthy contracts on the backs of the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and ordinary Pakistanis, Israelis, English, Indians, South Africans are blown up on a bus. Ask yourself this question, if warships were gathering around the English channel, and Iraqi soldiers were parading around England, and the government of these soldiers were making noises that they didn't like our way of life and wanted to impose their version, what would you do? I'd be the first to be up in arms about it, so you have to respect their right to do the same.

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