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RE: why slave and not submissive? - 7/2/2007 5:01:41 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello celeste - hope you and yours are well?

Busy but well, thanks for asking, dark.

quote:

The word Dominant is a noun - however not in the context of being 'a dominant'.

I've cited the source below and will note that this definition is not in my OED.

Of course, that does rather speak to my point about definitions not actually being universal and therefore a bit moot to describe something so ambiguous as the word slave.

Source 1:Webster's Universal Encyclopedic Dictionary c 2002
Source 2: Merriam-Websters Medical Dictionary c 2002

dominant (noun 1819): 2c: a dominant individual in a social heirarchy

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dominant

The 'noun' dominant is listed as a secondary definition so is not the most widely used or recognized, but certainly would have to be considered a valid use of the word if one has any faith in MW as a source. "Hard worker" is just as valid a definition for the word slave, so, my point is that unless and until we all have the same book and are on the same page, we pretty much have no choice but to decide for ourselves who and what we are (at least as a starting point) then go from there with further communication.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 61

RE: why slave and not submissive? - 7/2/2007 5:02:12 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Can we go with the jello? I bet it's easier to wash out of your hair.

you'd be suprised how much easier it is to wash mud from hair than jello

Really? I should do experiments on this. And then perhaps experiments on what shampoo best removes each. And I swear, this will be entirely for science and not the chance to wrestle hot girls and boys in mud and jello repeatedly!

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 62

RE: why slave and not submissive? - 7/2/2007 5:02:22 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

The dictionary definition of slavery is all well and good 'if and when' we all own the same book and can get on the same page. One of the definitions of 'slave' in my dictionary is 'hard worker'. I'm a hard worker and I identify as a slave. Who is to say that I'm 'not' a hard worker and don't have the right to label myself as a slave based on that definition? What about dictionary's in other languages, which have different nuances and ideas which don't even exist within the English language and as such can't even be translated? This is called an 'alternative' lifestyle for a reason and words which work outside this very narrow lifestyle don't always 'fit' well within the spectrum of BDSM. Slave happens to be one of those words because for many of us it's about the 'concept' and 'idea' .. it's about what being a slave makes us feel and not what others believe it means. One 'hard worker' will call themselves a slave.. another will call themself a submissive and yet another har worker will call themself a Master.

Being a slave has nothing to do with being cool and everything to do with what you discover as the truth of your own spirit. Being a submissive, being a slave, being a vanilla are all quick labels to have a starting point from which to share what's inside of you, what makes you tick or what you yearn for in your life. It's a fuzzy, blurry idea which comes into sharper focus as you enter deeper into communication with those in whom you have an interest. How dare a newbie call themselves a slave when they don't have the first clue what it means to be a slave? Well, how dare anyone make such an assumption that they don't.

Can I get an Amen?!

High Five!

Thank you for expressing so beautifully one of the things I've been saying for sometime.

Its all identity. Nothing more, nothing less. These simple black and white definitions that everyone keeps flopping around do zero justice to the vast grey that is a human being.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 7/2/2007 5:04:49 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 63

RE: why slave and not submissive? - 7/2/2007 5:05:47 PM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Can we go with the jello? I bet it's easier to wash out of your hair.

you'd be suprised how much easier it is to wash mud from hair than jello

Really? I should do experiments on this. And then perhaps experiments on what shampoo best removes each. And I swear, this will be entirely for science and not the chance to wrestle hot girls and boys in mud and jello repeatedly!

This was exactly how I found out... made some good money back in the mid 80's doing these wrestling gigs... oil wrestling was the worst, not on hair or anything... no one could get a grip on anyone & all we did was slide around all over each other....

well, on second thought... oil wrestling was really fun!

_____________________________

MstrssPassion

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 64

RE: why slave and not submissive? - 7/2/2007 6:03:53 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Really? I should do experiments on this. And then perhaps experiments on what shampoo best removes each. And I swear, this will be entirely for science and not the chance to wrestle hot girls and boys in mud and jello repeatedly!

This was exactly how I found out... made some good money back in the mid 80's doing these wrestling gigs... oil wrestling was the worst, not on hair or anything... no one could get a grip on anyone & all we did was slide around all over each other....

well, on second thought... oil wrestling was really fun!

....

I wanna play

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 65

RE: why slave and not submissive? - 7/2/2007 6:08:23 PM

Travelino

Posts: 34
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Canada
Status: offline

Oh boy, shyinini, I understand where you are coming from, and the question is valid and I would like to hear different responses from the more submissive group, here on CollarMe. So far as I can see, and I have just gone through the first 2-3 posts on this thread, it looks like the rest of thread is going to much the same as past threads without any real answers to your questions. I am hoping to prove myself wrong, here, and may have to finish the thread a wee bit later on. I am unable to answer your question, and may find that those who are more qualified to answer those question, are unable to do so also, and provide counter-questions to hide that fact. I have yet to find a reason behind that tactic of avoiding answering questions, yet I suspect it may have something to do with lack of knowledge. I hope you have gotten/will get the responses needed to satisfy your query.

Travelino

quote:

ORIGINAL: shyinini

I've been pondering something.
Maybe I have been retarded enough to miss the answer to this on other threads.
PLEASE do not rehash the slave vs sub topic, tis really NOT what I seek.

Please do not make something more of my question than it reads…

Why do “self stated newbies” call themselves "slaves," when their profile clearly demonstrates their lack of knowledge in what a “slave” is. And their profile also states they have never had real experience. That is no experience at all in R/T.
I’ll use the 9 Levels of Submission as a point of reference.

I ask this because of some reading I have been doing, NOT on CM. It was that “substud” thread in “Ask a Mistress” that finally propelled me to ask this question.

Sir's curious girl

quote:

shyinini

_____________________________

~~"When the student is ready, the Master will appear."~~

(in reply to shyinini)

Post #: 66

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/2/2007 7:22:01 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: shyinini Why do “self stated newbies” call themselves "slaves," when their profile clearly demonstrates their lack of knowledge in what a “slave” is?

I believe your question partially answers itself. Widespread romantic ignorance is often the culprit behind the excessive use of the term "slave." While it's impossible to ascertain what people truly know by virtue of what they express in pixel text, it is safe to say most self-ascribed "slaves" would be better off designating themselves as fledgling submissives, or what would perhaps be even more accurate, bottoms. Many won't resort to this level of honesty, despite the fact it would be in their better interests to do so.

There is of course the issue of those who use the terms submissive and slave synonymously, too, which in turn fosters a tremendous amount of confusion between the philosophically laissez-faire and the more literal among us. Since I count myself in the latter group, I do see a difference between the terms. I often see submissive as the beginning of slave. In this, the two are closely related, but not the same; one is compliant and biddable, whereas the other is completely servile.

There are few people who have the understanding of or the capacity to live in complete servility by consent alone. Though it is true that with enough creative effort, "slave" can mean nearly anything to anyone, I assert that each human has a deep, animal understanding of "slave" that goes beyond words. It's a pretty raw, simple and direct thing which is beautiful in its own light, but it's the tendency so many have to pretty it up that causes insurmountable misunderstanding.

< Message edited by amayos -- 7/2/2007 7:48:20 PM >

(in reply to shyinini)

Post #: 67

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/2/2007 11:46:46 PM

Travelino

Posts: 34
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Canada
Status: offline

So far, I have seen about 10 people answer your question for you, shyinini, the rest appear to be defending the terms submissive/slave and sometimes Dominant/Master/Mistress or trying to define them. I realize that the BDSM sites give a person the option to classify yourself, yet, it *does* seem that in some introductory parts of some profiles, there is some self-entitlement referred to. Some of these people are single. I wonder myself, how a *single* person can attach a label to themselves. If you deem yourself a slave/submissive/Dominant/Master/etc, who are you a slave/submissive/Dominant/Master/etc to? Seems to me that a person may need both sides of the coin to make a complete coin. There is no sub/slave person without a Dom/Master person to contrast with, no? Once again, I may be offbase, here. I see you found a possible reasoning behind those labels, and I may agree with you, to a certain extent. Since I have come to the conclusion that coming across *the* person for me, will be in a real-life encounter, I look at three things on profiles, when it comes to the slave/submissive labels. One, how old is the person. Two, is that person single and looking. Three, how long has that person been *active* in the lifestyle. Then, just for kicks, I will read all info on the profile and any responses they have made in the forums. Next, one of two things will happen. Either I will be shaking my head, chuckling to myself and rather quickly disregard the person as someone I would like have by my side, or, make a mental note that this person is someone to be respected, would hope to meet someone like them in my travels, and have the honor of having a person like that at my side for the duration of my life.

I think I have contributed enough unnecessary pollution of this thread. My apologies to all, and thanks to those who actually answered the questions that shyinini had asked. I enjoyed them as well.

~~edited due to substandard spell-checker~~

Travelino

< Message edited by Travelino -- 7/2/2007 11:51:12 PM >

_____________________________

~~"When the student is ready, the Master will appear."~~

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 68

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/2/2007 11:48:37 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

That depends solely on your personal definations. I am bisexual. I do not having to be currently having sex with both men and women to be bisexual. I am a submissive. That doesn't mean I have to be currently serving someone to know that I like serving.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Travelino)

Post #: 69

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 12:05:45 AM

Travelino

Posts: 34
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

That depends solely on your personal definations. I am bisexual. I do not having to be currently having sex with both men and women to be bisexual. I am a submissive. That doesn't mean I have to be currently serving someone to know that I like serving.

It sounds like you are equating submissiveness to serving, yes? In a profile situation, instead of saying a person is *submissive*, maybe state that you enjoy *serving*? Maybe that would clear up some misinterpretations of the word *submissive* to the reader, and promote a more.......... hmmm.......... whats the word, here........ humble, sort of aura about how that person see themself? Just a thought. :-)

Thanks for clearing up how you see yourself. I *did* notice your signature, by the way, and I agree wholehheartedly. Take care, AquaticSub.

Travelino.

_____________________________

~~"When the student is ready, the Master will appear."~~

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 70

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 12:08:22 AM

becca333

Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline

There's nine levels? NINE?

Dammit, why don't people tell you these things when you start? I've probably been doing things all wrong.

(in reply to Travelino)

Post #: 71

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 12:10:53 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Yeah, how many experience points have you accumulated? You may have further to go than you envisioned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

There's nine levels? NINE?

(in reply to becca333)

Post #: 72

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 12:12:29 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Travelino

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

That depends solely on your personal definations. I am bisexual. I do not having to be currently having sex with both men and women to be bisexual. I am a submissive. That doesn't mean I have to be currently serving someone to know that I like serving.

It sounds like you are equating submissiveness to serving, yes? In a profile situation, instead of saying a person is *submissive*, maybe state that you enjoy *serving*? Maybe that would clear up some misinterpretations of the word *submissive* to the reader, and promote a more.......... hmmm.......... whats the word, here........ humble, sort of aura about how that person see themself? Just a thought. :-)

Thanks for clearing up how you see yourself. I *did* notice your signature, by the way, and I agree wholehheartedly. Take care, AquaticSub.

Travelino.

No. But saying "I don't have to have a partner who is telling me serve to know I like serving" just takes less time to type then "I don't have to currently have a partner who ties me up, beats my ass, uses me as his personal fuck toy and then tells me to get him a sandwhich" to know I enjoy those things.

Thanks on the sig line. *Grins* I'll be sure to let Valyraen know.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 7/3/2007 12:13:08 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Travelino)

Post #: 73

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 12:45:07 AM

becca333

Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, how many experience points have you accumulated? You may have further to go than you envisioned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

There's nine levels? NINE?

There'd better be a certificate at the end of it.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 74

RE: why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 5:22:45 AM

starshineowned

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

Greetings..~smiles~

As slave goes..dictionary definitions or not...the term for alot of people is that it is one associated with a persons "status" amongst the rest of the populous. In this status were certain aspects of less or no rights, defference, Submission (which did Not require one to be submissive)..etc. This is not the case any longer as no such legal "status" is accepted amongst the populous.

So the term slave is now up for grabs and interpretation by any and all as they see fit to use it. We tend to hold onto certain facets of what it use to mean, and what some things were like for those who fell into that status..i.e. if it's not a legal status anymore then we'll attatch "you can't be one if you've never served real time" etc. or some hold onto the aspect of having to be owned to make it so.

What ever the case is today as to why or how the term came to you is purely self imposed or willing. Only thing from that point on is understanding what it means to you and finding others who feel along the same lines about it.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to shyinini)

Post #: 75

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 6:37:48 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, how many experience points have you accumulated? You may have further to go than you envisioned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

There's nine levels? NINE?

There'd better be a certificate at the end of it.

It's like a travel rewards plan, you get a free roundtrip airline ticket to anywhere in the Continental US....

(in reply to becca333)

Post #: 76

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 7:21:31 AM

becca333

Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, how many experience points have you accumulated? You may have further to go than you envisioned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

There's nine levels? NINE?

There'd better be a certificate at the end of it.

It's like a travel rewards plan, you get a free roundtrip airline ticket to anywhere in the Continental US....

Ohhh wow that's great! So which state has the most fun?

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 77

RE: why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 7:34:58 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
As for why newbies like to call themselves "slaves": I think the main reason is that it sounds more thrilling and dangerous and alluring than just "sub." Also, some of them may have read (or heard about) the Gor novels and other fiction romanticizing slavery.

I'll also add that many male Doms perpetuate the situation by insinuating to novices that slaves are cooler or more desirable.

Even more funny is when, a novice "slave" tells us that her submission is deeper than a submissives because she is a slave. Keeping in mind that I consider myself an owned, collared submissive. (I don't call myself a slave because I think it does a disservice to those that are actually forced into slavery). I find it funny that one without any experience can try to quantify their submission level against anyone else, nevermind when that other person lives in a 24/7 D/s relationship.

I find this funny because when I started in this life, submissive and slave were interchangeable. They meant exactly the same thing.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 78

RE: Why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 7:35:32 AM

GhitaAmati

Posts: 3263
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline

This is why, when at fetish parties and Leather conventions, when people ask me what I am: I say I am a girl

quote:

I wonder myself, how a *single* person can attach a label to themselves. If you deem yourself a slave/submissive/Dominant/Master/etc, who are you a slave/submissive/Dominant/Master/etc to? Seems to me that a person may need both sides of the coin to make a complete coin

When Im asked my sexual preferences, I answer "yes". Makes things much easier.

Now, to truly answer you. I do not think a person needs to be in a current relationship to define themselves. Thats like telling someone they arent anyone unless they are in a relationship. Thats just silly. Im still me whether Im married or collared or single and barenecked.

I am a submissive, thats who I am, at this time I do not submit to anyone (other than the UMs of course) but I am married. That doesnt make me any less submissive. How would you like it if I told you you werent a dominant anymore just because you havent collared anybody?

Whatever we define ourselves as, we must always prove it to be true by our actions and words. We earn the respect of those around us by living up to our definitions and titles. Most people in a bdsm community dont walk in and say "Hi im Master xxx, you will bow down to me" theyed get laughed out of the place. Now, if they walked in and said "Hi im xxx, im a Dom/Top" and over the years prove themselves to their community, people will respect him and often refer to him as a Master. Just like me, I dont walk into a bar and say, "Hi im a submissive" I say "Hi, Im ghita", then over time, people realize by my actions that Im a submissive. Im me before Im a title.

(in reply to becca333)

Post #: 79

RE: why slave and not submissive? - 7/3/2007 7:41:29 AM

MyMasterStephen

Posts: 219
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: shyinini

Why do “self stated newbies” call themselves "slaves," when their profile clearly demonstrates their lack of knowledge in what a “slave” is.

If they don't understand what a "slave" is, then how can they know any better than to apply the term to themselves?

You are asking them to make a distinction whilst at the same time saying they are unable to make the distinction.

(in reply to shyinini)

Post #: 80

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