"Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (Full Version)

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Vendaval -> "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/3/2007 10:30:25 PM)


"Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon"

By BEN FELLER, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 47 minutes ago

" WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday refused to rule out an eventual pardon for I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, leaving open the chance he may wipe away the former White House aide's criminal record after already erasing his prison sentence.

"I rule nothing in or nothing out," Bush said when asked about whether he might pardon Libby before leaving office in January 2009.

The president's stance, on one level, was merely practical. When he commuted Libby's 2 1/2-year prison term in the CIA leak case on Monday, a court ruling had made jail time imminent. Bush has plenty of time to consider a pardon, depending on how Libby's appeals go.

Bush's words had political significance, too. By keeping his options open, he offered hope to the conservative members of his own party who believe he should go further in pardoning Libby. He also kept alive a controversy that could follow him to the last day of his presidency.

Libby, who once wielded enormous influence as chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, was convicted of lying and obstructing justice in a probe into the leak of a CIA operative's identity. The long-running case meant the end of Libby's government career and dovetailed with the broader troubles of Bush's second term in office.

Bush abruptly commuted Libby's prison sentence — an unusual step, given that it had not yet begun — five hours after a federal appeals court panel ruled that Libby could not delay his prison term. Bush left intact the sentence of two years probation and a $250,000 fine, citing a need for some accountability.

In his first public comments on the matter on Tuesday, Bush defended his rationale.
"I felt like the jury verdict ought to stand, and I felt like some of the punishments that the judge determined were adequate should stand," Bush said after visiting wounded soldiers at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center. "But I felt like the 30-month sentencing was severe."

"I made a judgment, a considered judgment," the president added. "I stand by it."
Bush took heat from the left and the right.

The conservative Wall Street Journal editorial page said Bush's unwillingness to pardon Libby was "another profile in non-courage."

On the other side, Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., said of the prospect of eventual pardon for Libby: "The motto of this administration seems to be: When you're in a hole up to your neck, keep digging."

Unlike the commutation, a pardon would wipe away Libby's felony conviction.
White House officials cautioned against reading too much into Bush's comment that he wouldn't rule out a pardon. Spokesman Tony Snow — directly addressing those arguing for a pardon — said the jury system must be respected.

The commutation created confusion about whether Libby could still serve his two-year term of supervised release — a form of probation available only to people who have completed their prison term. U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton ordered prosecutors and attorneys to suggest how to continue.

Under supervised release, Libby would have to submit written reports to probation officers each month and secure full-time employment. He would be prohibited from traveling without permission.

Libby is not yet eligible to apply for a pardon under the Justice Department's guidelines. Criminals must wait at least five years after completing their sentences before they can apply for presidential pardons, although Bush could unilaterally issue him one.

Some lawyers said Bush's statement about Libby's harsh sentence showed that the administration was out of touch with today's federal sentencing guidelines. People like Libby — first-time, nonviolent offenders — receive lengthy sentences every day, they said.

"This was a very common sentence, not a startling sentence," said former federal prosecutor Scott L. Fredericksen, who has served under ever president since Ronald Reagan.

Defense attorney and former prosecutor E. Lawrence Barcella noted that politicians keep making sentencing guidelines stricter. "Nothing turns a conservative into a liberal faster than a conviction. It's amazing how quickly they actually start thinking about people's civil liberties," he said.

Three of every four people convicted of obstruction of justice have been sent to prison over the past two years, a total of 283 people, according to federal judiciary data. The average term was more than five years. The largest group of defendants were sentenced to between 13 and 31 months in prison, exactly where Libby would have fallen on the charts.

Libby, 56, is the only person charged in the leak scandal, which erupted after CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity was revealed in a 2003 syndicated newspaper column. Libby was not the source for that leak and neither of the two Bush administration officials who provided the information were ever charged.

Left open is whether Bush will pardon Libby on his way out the door.

"To do a pardon at the moment in which the president is the least accountable of his entire term — that's problematic," said Brian Kalt, a law professor who studies presidential pardons at Michigan State University. "It's also very tempting, which is why it has happened."

President Clinton pardoned 140 people on his last day in office, including fugitive financier Marc Rich — whose lawyer was Libby.

On Christmas Eve in 1992, just before he left office, the first President Bush pardoned former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger and a CIA official as they awaited trial on Iran-Contra charges, as well as four other administration officials who had pleaded or been found guilty in the affair. "

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070704/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_trial




passtheline -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/3/2007 10:32:54 PM)

cant we talk about something important?

like the house voting its self a raise when nothing is done?

demacrats where is the outrage?




Vendaval -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/3/2007 11:06:50 PM)

If you had looked on the next page in this Forum, you would have found that discussion here -

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1110560/tm.htm

posted on June 28th.




passtheline -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/3/2007 11:09:15 PM)

I did review the past postings... and I find that its still  more of an issue, than what Libby gets or what Bush does or doesnt do.




Vendaval -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/3/2007 11:15:22 PM)

"Off Topic" is an open forum on a free Website.  You will find a wide range of political opinions here from America, Canada, UK, EU, Australia, etc.  Anything and everything from Anarchy to Libertarians, economics, colonialism, death, disease, movie reviews, consumer advice, etc, is good for discussion.
 
You name it, we talk about it! [:D]
 
Welcome to the Forums!




Nosathro -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/4/2007 10:06:10 AM)

I think we are missing a very important point here.  This whole thing was done to to silence a critic of Bush's efforts to invade Iraq.  A Diplomatic Aide was sent by the Bush administration to Africa to gather evidence the Iraq was trying to or obtain "yellow cake" which is use to make weapons grade urainium isotps.  His report as he states said that Iraq was not doing that.  Bush in a speech stated that a report obtain by British Intelligence said Iraq was obtain "yellow cake".  In the exchange of who said what it is believed that the White House Aids slipped a doctored report of the Diplomate report.  He has accused the White House of doing so.  Cheny and I believe his name is Rowe (once a White House Aide who was created for a Big GOP win in Bushes first term and is known for dirty tricks campaining) leaked the Diplomate wifes name as a CIA Operative to the press, she was an CIA Operative, as revenage.   Even though there is a law about this it seems if you do something the White House does not like, and you are a CIA Operative, you could find your name in a paper when you are not in a safe place.  Further, those White House Aides who did will get away with it.  I wonder how many CIA Operative have just disappeared after hearing about what Bush as done and more than likely will do for Libby.  Oh and Iraq Nuclear Program never got off the drawing board.




Lordandmaster -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/4/2007 10:21:31 AM)

Why exactly is that more of an issue than treason?

Yeah, that's what it's called when a government knowingly obstructs justice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: passtheline

I did review the past postings... and I find that its still  more of an issue, than what Libby gets or what Bush does or doesnt do.




Sinergy -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/4/2007 12:28:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: passtheline

I did review the past postings... and I find that its still  more of an issue, than what Libby gets or what Bush does or doesnt do.


So post to it...

Sinergy




JohnSteed1967 -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/4/2007 2:27:53 PM)

Bush is a Dumb Ass, the only thing he is doing is handing the White House to the Democrats on a Silver Platter. Just like Ford did by giving Nixon a Pardon.




happypervert -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/4/2007 4:25:00 PM)

I think Dubya's next step will be to award Scooter the Medal of Freedom.




Vendaval -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/5/2007 8:36:13 PM)

I have wondered the same, Nos.  And the American public will never know how many other operatives and informers were compromised by the outing of Plame, nor how many others decided this line of work was just too risky.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
 I wonder how many CIA Operative have just disappeared after hearing about what Bush as done and more than likely will do for Libby. 






DomKen -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/5/2007 10:22:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I have wondered the same, Nos.  And the American public will never know how many other operatives and informers were compromised by the outing of Plame, nor how many others decided this line of work was just too risky.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
 I wonder how many CIA Operative have just disappeared after hearing about what Bush as done and more than likely will do for Libby. 




It's extraordinarily hard to know how much damage was done but consider just one element of the affair, Brewster Jennings & Asociates. This was Valerie Plame's cover employer. Now it seems unlikely that the CIA would go to the expense of setting up dummy companies for all of their operatives so it is safe to assume that some number of other CIA operatives, likely all in WMD anti-proliferation, have been permanently exposed and are therefore unusable in covert roles due to them also having BJ&A as a cover employer.




cyberdude611 -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/5/2007 10:36:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

I think we are missing a very important point here.  This whole thing was done to to silence a critic of Bush's efforts to invade Iraq.  A Diplomatic Aide was sent by the Bush administration to Africa to gather evidence the Iraq was trying to or obtain "yellow cake" which is use to make weapons grade urainium isotps.  His report as he states said that Iraq was not doing that.  Bush in a speech stated that a report obtain by British Intelligence said Iraq was obtain "yellow cake".  In the exchange of who said what it is believed that the White House Aids slipped a doctored report of the Diplomate report.  He has accused the White House of doing so.  Cheny and I believe his name is Rowe (once a White House Aide who was created for a Big GOP win in Bushes first term and is known for dirty tricks campaining) leaked the Diplomate wifes name as a CIA Operative to the press, she was an CIA Operative, as revenage.   Even though there is a law about this it seems if you do something the White House does not like, and you are a CIA Operative, you could find your name in a paper when you are not in a safe place.  Further, those White House Aides who did will get away with it.  I wonder how many CIA Operative have just disappeared after hearing about what Bush as done and more than likely will do for Libby.  Oh and Iraq Nuclear Program never got off the drawing board.


Again, Libby did NOT leak Plame's name!

Richard Armitage is the man that outed Plame.




Lordandmaster -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/6/2007 12:20:49 AM)

No, Libby obstructed justice.  Why do you keep defending this guy?  It's starting to look really weird.




luckydog1 -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/6/2007 12:29:01 AM)

Yet many of you demand the outing of most of the Operatives that focus on the mideast and terrorism, as well as thier assistants on the ground.  And exposing our intell gathering methods.  This after would be the result of Full Due Process trials for the unlawfull combatants....Hmm

I tend to doubt the CIA puts all thier agents in the same front company, it's not like they are short of cash.




Vendaval -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/6/2007 12:30:02 AM)

That is a very good point to consider, DomKen. And if a field op can no longer do their job,
then they get shuffled into desk positions and have to be replaced. 
 
Maybe a few years from now one of them will write a book about the whole ordeal.




farglebargle -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/6/2007 6:03:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Yet many of you demand the outing of most of the Operatives that focus on the mideast and terrorism, as well as thier assistants on the ground. And exposing our intell gathering methods. This after would be the result of Full Due Process trials for the unlawfull combatants....Hmm

I tend to doubt the CIA puts all thier agents in the same front company, it's not like they are short of cash.


I don't believe Due Process and Equal Protection is inconsistent in any way with maintaining cover. I believe that is an excuse, which the UNAMERICAN FORCES penetrating our society use to support their hatred of AMERICAN VALUES.




cyberdude611 -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/6/2007 7:24:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, Libby obstructed justice.  Why do you keep defending this guy?  It's starting to look really weird.


I thought this whole investigation was about trying to find out who outed a CIA agent. Right? Well the guy that admits to doing it is was not even indicted! That has nothing to do with Libby obstructing justice. Armitage ADMITS he was the leak. Why isn't he in jail?




farglebargle -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/6/2007 8:07:56 AM)

If you get INCORRECTLY pulled over for a traffic offense WHICH YOU DID NOT COMMIT, and during the course of issuing the ticket, you get pissed off at the cop and take a swing at him, are you suggesting the crime of assaulting an officer should not be prosecuted because you DID come to a full stop before proceeding?





cyberdude611 -> RE: "Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon" (7/6/2007 8:12:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you get INCORRECTLY pulled over for a traffic offense WHICH YOU DID NOT COMMIT, and during the course of issuing the ticket, you get pissed off at the cop and take a swing at him, are you suggesting the crime of assaulting an officer should not be prosecuted because you DID come to a full stop before proceeding?




The only way your analogy works is if during a traffic stop another motorist stops and punches the cop. Are you saying the speeding infraction should then not count?




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