RE: Punching your sub/slave?

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Aswad -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/9/2007 5:31:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado The are forums where lists of 'what works' under pressure/in reality are discussed at length. I know. I lurk in some of them. There is one in particular that has a fair bit of useful stuff; it doesn't have a regular address or a name, but it does have subforums for e.g. SEALs. And a lot of people from my school are using the art in their regular work as police officers, bodyguards, soldiers and so forth. We also dispatch some students to various workshops to learn other arts in order to analyze them and develop effective means of identifying them early and countering them effectively. Our training is frequently conducted with a camera present, to help people pick out bits they do wrong, and for reference. We also use other tools, and share what we find in a fairly effective manner. Which is why I'd like to know what Sinergy had found, since I could then correlate this with what we know, and double-check. Most armored stuff we do is using traditional samurai body armor, which certainly gives a new perspective on things (try kicking someone in one, if you haven't already). Mostly, though, as forums go, I like e-budo. It has a very pleasant, polite tone.

Sinergy -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/9/2007 6:03:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Also, look at stuff like pressure points. Some schools rely almost entirely on them, and most of these are bogus, while the rest are generally questionable. Do I learn pressure points? Well, kind of. Am I supposed to use them? No, I'm supposed to break the bones under it; hitting the point itself is just an added bonus- nice if it happens, don't care if it doesn't. My primary martial art taught pressure points. I gave a seminar at a couple of play parties on how to use them to get one's sub into subspace. They have their uses, correctly perverted. quote: Locks are, comparatively speaking, one of the lesser "sins". Some work, some don't. The better arts tend to teach the difference, when to apply which locks. Bone, muscle, and nerves are very different in this regard. Against an opponent that is full of drugs or adrenalin, it is more viable to neutralize him/her. My jiu jutsu instructor told me to not use my Hapkido joint locks and breaks because it would damage the ones I was training with. My Aikido instructors got angry with me because I invariably hit them (not hard) with front chops doing Aikido stuff and their stuff did not work against the way I used front chops. Apparently that meant I was doing them wrong. Im good. I was able to stifle my laughter both times. quote: quote: This basically revolves around the idea that an expert on a certain technique would try to do the technique to an armored and padded assailant and would discover it did not work. Any chance of getting a list of the techniques tested? Not sure what you mean. Basically, any knife defense technique we tried that are utilized by Shotokan, Hapkido, various forms of Kung Fu, etc., where the student is only using their hands to control the weapon hand is largely useless. There are some that were (and are) used from Jiu Jitsu, but the feedback I gave was that if the student does not really work her ass off to control my arm, Im getting my weapon back. I can do this because I am one of the largest and strongest male assailants working at the moment. Since our approach is constantly evolving, we worked quite diligently to figure out techniques that would work within the paradigm we are giving the student faced with a much larger and stronger opponent. Having said that, I want to say that the way we do it now has the following things going for it. 1) I cannot get my arm (holding the weapon) back. The student is scared shitless at the idea that I might, and she sticks to it like flypaper. 2) Because the student is so profoundly adrenalized and frightened, I get hit harder and longer than any other class. 3) I have had ligaments in my wrists and elbows damaged in class because the student will drop her entire weight on her knees (on my wrist and arm) to control the weapon. 4) I get so beaten up (In my armor) that it takes me about 2 days to recover from the adrenalin, the endorphins, and the overall beating. It is all good. The finishing arm lock techniques were taken from Ju Jutsu. These work because I simulate a man who has been kneed repeatedly in the testicles and the head when she goes to use them. Sinergy

HardnRuff -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/9/2007 7:24:51 PM)
Wow , Punch play is a new one to Me .

Aswad -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/9/2007 7:55:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy My primary martial art taught pressure points. I didn't say we don't teach them. I said we don't rely on them, which some arts do. quote: They have their uses, correctly perverted. Clearly. quote: My jiu jutsu instructor told me to not use my Hapkido joint locks and breaks because it would damage the ones I was training with. Some joint locks will damage people. Our bone and joint techniques almost invariably do. If you resist, that is, which is why students are taught to yield. Resisting is acceptable, but it's handled in the traditional way: proof is given. And the proof is almost invariably accurate and not at all satisfying. I have never felt the need to learn that the hard way. When a joint is about to fail, you feel it. No need to actually break it. quote: My Aikido instructors got angry with me because I invariably hit them (not hard) with front chops doing Aikido stuff and their stuff did not work against the way I used front chops. Apparently that meant I was doing them wrong. ~lol~ Initially, with a new exercise, we use set moves, so people have a chance to see it work. Then people are encouraged to vary attacks, and adaptation in defense is expected. The idea is that the exercises illustrate a point, they aren't forms to be used. Rigidity is the bane of true martial arts everywhere. Martial sports may be different, but martial arts are the study of how bodies work by themselves, how bodies may interact, how the mind works, and how to express oneself through the body in a natural and honest manner. quote: Not sure what you mean. Basically, any knife defense technique we tried that are utilized by Shotokan, Hapkido, various forms of Kung Fu, etc., where the student is only using their hands to control the weapon hand is largely useless. Knife defense against a trained opponent is hard. As one source quite nicely put it, one should "expect to be cut." That said, it isn't impossible, and most opponents have limited knife training. I doubt I would try to control a weapon such as a knife, though. Rather, keep it from killing me while I incapacitate. Some of the moves we use against knives are designed to- rather than seizing control of the weapon or the arm wielding it- use the weapon to cut the attacker instead. That has worked for me when training against people who have equivalent skill to what I have, at knife fighting, that is. But only a few locations are worth cutting, unless you can go deep. I will certainly agree that most knife defense techniques I've seen in various arts are unviable. It will be interesting to see what they have got cooked up after the workshop on Sayoc Kali. Some of the fluid knifework they have is rather hard to counter with conventional techniques, since you don't get access to the arm or blade, and the motion is continous and extensively practiced, making it a single, drawn-out attempt to attack. The targets, IIRC, are the jugular vein, carotid artery, subclavian, kidneys, brachial artery, cephalic vein and basilic vein. As I recall, the first move of the basic course cuts the jugular, the carotid, the subclavian and both kidneys in a fraction of a second, given a good knife. Trying to seize the knife in such a scenario seems less than ideal. In fact, knives are one of the few cases where you'd sacrifice a hand or an arm to keep the weapon at bay while delivering a killing blow, preferrably with a knife of your own, though a hammer or flashlight (my preferred concealed weapon) will also work nicely. Eye gouging might be useful in a pinch, then kicking/shoving the person away from you. Hard to attack what you can't see, even if you're used to going by ear. quote: There are some that were (and are) used from Jiu Jitsu, but the feedback I gave was that if the student does not really work her ass off to control my arm, Im getting my weapon back. Might I ask which kinds of ju jutsu? There are some differences in approach. I would imagine the arts that were designed for unarmed casual vs armored samurai with knife and sword would have locks that are better suited, as compared to e.g. sporting arts. My experience with arm locks has been that I have trouble applying them at full speed- owing to lack of practice so far, I guess, though some are inherently difficult- but that if I do manage to apply them, I can pretty much control the attacker. Depends on the kind of lock, though. The ones that are designed for that kind of thing work well. Those that use some measure of strength are useless, unless you're the stronger party. We do learn some stuff that works with pain, but the reason for that, as sensei pointed out, is quite simply that most encounters will be with some ordinarily nice person who has just had one too many to drink, and who doesn't deserve to wake up in the hospital or (not wake up) in the morgue. If they aren't seriously committed to damage, that is. You wouldn't apply those to a drugged person, or someone who is out to mess you up badly. I think of it as a "warning shot": here, this hurts, and if you play along and follow me to the exit and then go, we leave it at that, else one or both of us will be carried out. quote: I can do this because I am one of the largest and strongest male assailants working at the moment. Since our approach is constantly evolving, we worked quite diligently to figure out techniques that would work within the paradigm we are giving the student faced with a much larger and stronger opponent. ~nod~ The art should be a living one. By the way, I hope you also teach things about how to avoid things turning violent in the first place? Stuff like area awareness, physiological signs that a person is ready to become violent, etc. quote: 1) I cannot get my arm (holding the weapon) back. The student is scared shitless at the idea that I might, and she sticks to it like flypaper. That definitely works, if the lock does the job. quote: 2) Because the student is so profoundly adrenalized and frightened, I get hit harder and longer than any other class. ~lol~ quote: 3) I have had ligaments in my wrists and elbows damaged in class because the student will drop her entire weight on her knees (on my wrist and arm) to control the weapon. Sounds like someone's doing a good job of putting them in the mindspace of realism. [:D] quote: 4) I get so beaten up (In my armor) that it takes me about 2 days to recover from the adrenalin, the endorphins, and the overall beating. Hehe, that actually sounds a bit fun, in a wierd kind of way. I can relate to spending 2 days recovering from a beating (5-hour classes are like that), but I have yet to spend that long recovering from the chemistry of it all. That has passed over the course of the day, for me. I can forget about doing anything for the rest of that day, though. Mostly, as I said, I get the adrenaline after I've done my bit, whether it's a conflict or emergency or whatever. quote: The finishing arm lock techniques were taken from Ju Jutsu. These work because I simulate a man who has been kneed repeatedly in the testicles and the head when she goes to use them. ~nod~ It takes quite a bit of skill to properly apply an arm lock from ju jutsu. But they work rather well, once in place, since they are passive in nature. There is no way to generate force that isn't passively countered by something that can take more than whatever you are using to generate it with. At least, those are the ones I like the best from ju jutsu.

Sinergy -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/9/2007 8:36:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Some joint locks will damage people. True enough. However, I have 35 hours to teach a middle aged housewife with no martial arts training how to deal with a knife or gun wielding nutcase. quote: Knife defense against a trained opponent is hard. Knife defense is hard. I have been in a knife fight with an untrained opponent. I have scars. But the outcome was the one I wanted, no morgue time for either of us and no jail time for me. People trained in knife fighting dont spend much time in knife fights, from what I have read. quote: I doubt I would try to control a weapon such as a knife, though. Keeping it from killing you qualifies as control. While we tell the student to control the weapon, the reality is they are controlling the arm holding the weapon. This is either against their body (both arms) or pinned between both people. quote: It will be interesting to see what they have got cooked up after the workshop on Sayoc Kali. Some of the fluid knifework they have is rather hard to counter with conventional techniques, since you don't get access to the arm or blade, and the motion is continous and extensively practiced, making it a single, drawn-out attempt to attack. The targets, IIRC, are the jugular vein, carotid artery, subclavian, kidneys, brachial artery, cephalic vein and basilic vein. As I recall, the first move of the basic course cuts the jugular, the carotid, the subclavian and both kidneys in a fraction of a second, given a good knife. Sounds like the sort of thing Cliff Stewart and Graciella Casillas taught us when we had them in to consult and teach us knife combat. My experience with most trained people is that the last thing they want to do is actually be in a fight. quote: though a hammer or flashlight (my preferred concealed weapon) will also work nicely. Handy trivia tip: If you are a police officer who beats a suspect to death with a flashlight, and the flashlight works when you are done, It is NOT police brutality. My job gives me really weird trivia. quote: My experience with arm locks has been that I have trouble applying them at full speed- owing to lack of practice so far, I guess, though some are inherently difficult- but that if I do manage to apply them, I can pretty much control the attacker. Depends on the kind of lock, though. The ones that are designed for that kind of thing work well. Those that use some measure of strength are useless, unless you're the stronger party. My experience as well, although I would also state that people in the dojo dont react the way people in real life react to somebody trying to put on a joint lock. They work. If you can apply them. I dont let my students apply them unless they have earned the honor by flattening my (simulated) testicles or smashed in my (simulated) face with knee kicks or elbow strikes. I have 35 hours to teach a student how to defend herself under adrenalin against knife, gun, and club. quote: We do learn some stuff that works with pain A few of the 35 or so hormones released into the bloodstream include endorphins that shut off pain response. quote: By the way, I hope you also teach things about how to avoid things turning violent in the first place? I have posted about this extensively elsewhere. We do lots and lots of verbal deescalation drills under adrenalin. We teach the person the skills she needs under adrenalin to get the person to go away (thus avoiding the fight) Target denial, That sort of thing. Students finish our class being very aware, very capable of talking their way out of a conflict, and knowing that if it comes down to a fight, they have that taken care of as well. quote: That definitely works, if the lock does the job. I wouldnt call it a lock. She has latched onto my arm to prevent me from using it. One of our first drills is me trying to shake her off my arm. The adrenal lesson is "If you let go of that arm, you are fucked." I am strong enough to wave most of them around like a hankerchief. They do NOT let go. quote: 3) I have had ligaments in my wrists and elbows damaged in class because the student will drop her entire weight on her knees (on my wrist and arm) to control the weapon. Sounds like someone's doing a good job of putting them in the mindspace of realism. [:D] I take my job fairly seriously. Sinergy p.s. My boss applied for me to be in the Black Belt Hall of Fame. p.p.s. Gah.

Aswad -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/9/2007 9:36:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy However, I have 35 hours to teach a middle aged housewife with no martial arts training how to deal with a knife or gun wielding nutcase. I wasn't saying it was a wrong choice. For the purposes of such training, it's great. quote: Knife defense is hard. I have been in a knife fight with an untrained opponent. I have scars. Mea culpa. I should have left out "untrained". I've just never tried an opponent without some experience. quote: But the outcome was the one I wanted, no morgue time for either of us and no jail time for me. Around here, we're fortunate enough that a knife is close to a blank check for self-defense. Which is, in my opinion, how it should be; knives are way more dangerous than they get credit for. That said, even if I had given it conscious thought, I doubt jail time would be on my mind in a knife fight. quote: People trained in knife fighting dont spend much time in knife fights, from what I have read. I know exactly two people who use knives in combat. One avoids it at any cost short of death. The other is insane, and doesn't count. That's one of the ways to tell martial artists apart, in my experience. There are the ones that glady get into a "fight" and think it's fun. Then there's those who will avoid it like the plague. I consider myself one of the latter. Once I had assimilated the mindset, I found myself wanting to never find use for it, ever. Not just the experience of using it, and the knowledge of how dangerous it can be, but also the experience of mentally stepping into that mental space, and realizing what it is really about, and what might come out of it, for both parties. I really, definitely don't want to injure, much less kill, anyone. But I know I will not hesitate to do so when I am in that mindspace (fudoshin). And I know that is the only mindspace I can expect to find myself in, should I be attacked again; it is a reflex. And that it is the one that gives me the best chance of coming out of it without dying or being seriously injured, if the other person is committed. And I have experienced, first-hand, how people back down when they see that I'm in that space. There aren't many things worth dying for in this world. The one on the defending side doesn't stand to lose anything much. By adding fudoshin to the equation, the one on the attacking side suddenly stands to lose anything and everything. Unless whatever they were out to attack for in the first place is one of those things worth dying for, they tend to reevaluate the situation, and come up with a different result. quote: Keeping it from killing you qualifies as control. Ah, I got the impression you were talking about fully controlling the weapon. Which is what some arts try to do, for some reason. quote: While we tell the student to control the weapon, the reality is they are controlling the arm holding the weapon. ~nod~ If you're going to control the weapon itself, it has to be long, or blunt. A gun qualifies, to some extent, since you can block the action of the slide. Staves, long blades, swords, etc. can be held, although that is a risky thing to do. The arm is a weapon in itself, so controlling it controls two weapons at one time, a plus. quote: This is either against their body (both arms) or pinned between both people. There are others that work (bar stools are great), but for your purposes, those are irrelevant. quote: Sounds like the sort of thing Cliff Stewart and Graciella Casillas taught us when we had them in to consult and teach us knife combat. Yeah. There aren't many targets worth going for. Arteries and veins bleed you down to cerebral and/or ischaemic hypoxia quickly, so those are good. Kidneys, eyes and windpipe are good. The heart (I assume they taught the angled attack that allows you to pass the ribs) is excellent. Maybe the lungs if you have an opening for those and nothing else. Brain is good, if the blade can do the job, but I wouldn't try that with a random blade, except maybe through the eyes; stabbing is less fluid though, seems easier to counter. Muscle works, if the cut is deep enough to incapacitate a limb that way. From what I've heard, a knife fight "ideally" renders the opponent unconscious in under 30 seconds. quote: My experience with most trained people is that the last thing they want to do is actually be in a fight. ~nod~ Depends on the school, though. I know a lot of the martial sports guys around here are very eager. The ones in more traditional martial arts prefer to avoid it altogether. Like earthquake drills, one does it in the hopes of never having to use what one has learned. quote: If you are a police officer who beats a suspect to death with a flashlight, and the flashlight works when you are done, It is NOT police brutality. ~lol~ In Norway, it would qualify as police brutality. But, yeah, I'm not surprised. Anyway, they have these lovely LED-based flashlights in one of the convenience chains here with a heavy, metal case, a solid protrusion, good grip, and a detachable cord-like thing that you can put around your wrist if you're worried about dropping it. They work well for both purposes, and are really cheap, so I train with one, and carry one at most times. quote: My job gives me really weird trivia. I can imagine. I have some myself. None that is of general interest, though. quote: My experience as well, although I would also state that people in the dojo dont react the way people in real life react to somebody trying to put on a joint lock. I don't only train in the dojo. But I agree, joint locks are for experts. And I'm not one, yet. quote: I have 35 hours to teach a student how to defend herself under adrenalin against knife, gun, and club. Yeah, I quite get the difference. One can better the odds significantly with just a little bit of practice. It takes tons of years, however, to get the "finer" points down. For John or Jane Doe, the first hurdle is awareness, the second actually doing anything at all, and the third being willing to defend oneself. Or, at least, that has been my experience with the people up here. There may be cultural variations, or I may have seen an unrepresentative sample. I'd love feedback on it. quote: A few of the 35 or so hormones released into the bloodstream include endorphins that shut off pain response. I am aware of that. Which is why the ones that work with pain are reserved for "casual" use. You use them on someone who will not go away, cannot be avoided, but still has a limited risk. Since there are knife and gun bans in effect in Norway, the risk evaluation is probably slightly different. I'd use these on a kid who throws a punch without having any idea what they're doing, or a drunk who doesn't have the coordination to hit me in the first place; it keeps them from making a fuss while you're throwing them out. I would not rely on pain if I felt threatened (ref. earlier comments on instinctive response). quote: We do lots and lots of verbal deescalation drills under adrenalin. We teach the person the skills she needs under adrenalin to get the person to go away (thus avoiding the fight) Target denial, That sort of thing. Great. Just wondering. I've seen otherwise good self-defense instructors forget this part. quote: Students finish our class being very aware, very capable of talking their way out of a conflict, and knowing that if it comes down to a fight, they have that taken care of as well. Sounds good. Perhaps I should sign up if I'm ever in the area. quote: She has latched onto my arm to prevent me from using it. One of our first drills is me trying to shake her off my arm. The adrenal lesson is "If you let go of that arm, you are fucked." I am strong enough to wave most of them around like a hankerchief. They do NOT let go. Ah, yes, not quite a lock. But, still, quite effective, I imagine. Certainly not what most predators expect, from what I've read. My admittedly limited reading indicates that the predators generally back off if they find they have misjudged the target, since there are easier prey around. Much like any other animal. quote: I take my job fairly seriously. ~nod~ Certainly sounds like it. quote: My boss applied for me to be in the Black Belt Hall of Fame. Nice. I get the gah, but it's still a nice recognition. P.S.: I think we got carried away, and hijacked this thread. [:D]

backseatbebe -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/11/2007 3:43:45 PM)
im curious as why everyone is so concerned about it being safe? i often want things that arent safe to happen in play like being punched in the face or being pushed down stairs

ProlificNeeds -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/11/2007 5:26:48 PM)
I don't really see how the application of pain with hands instead of with an instrument is any different. In fact I'd probably moreso appreciate the hand to flesh contact, it's intimate, and the person striking you can feel the contact directly and better guage how it's effecting you? Just guessing as I've never been prone to applying pain to others.

robertolapiedra -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/11/2007 11:53:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: backseatbebe im curious as why everyone is so concerned about it being safe? i often want things that arent safe to happen in play like being punched in the face or being pushed down stairs Hello backseatbebe. How's the jazz festival going in Montréal? Unless you are very good at falling in the "stairway", I would not recommend it. Sometimes you end up with a broken neck! Weel chairs for life is a good reason to play safe. As for punching? again if you know how to take a punch, and your dom know's "how" to punch, it is just as safe as other higher risk activities in the lifestyle. RL.

nephandi -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 4:47:45 AM)
(General reply to the tread, not to one person in particular.) Hi What is strike here? When i was a little girl we had some problems whit sometimes aggresive loose dogs in our town. my grandfather was afride of me and my little pet do would be attacked when out walking the taught me how to kick and attacking dog in the ribs whit the side of my foot, this would stun the animal, and probably frighten him away, but not seriously harm him. Now if you just kick a dog whit all your might in the ribs, you will harm the animals, but whit this metod you will not, the same whit hitting somone. If i bitchslap somone i will not harm the person, and whit a little knowledge on how not to hurt one can strike somone nearly anywere and not cause any harm, just like other types of BDSM, it is not dangerous if you know what you are doing. Off course striking is more risky than flogging whit a rubber flogger, just like fisting are more risky than normal sex, but as long as consent is given and the Dom know what he or she is doing, i do not see the big problem. Think about it this way, a single tail whip, it can in skilled hands be used to cause but a light caress, or it can be used to kill. Very few here say it should never be used, only that it should not be used by inexperienced hands. The same in my opinion whit hitting somone whit your firsts. i wish you all well.

kai13 -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 10:30:57 AM)
Honestly, I think you need to start a new thread if you want to go there... Perhaps... 25 Ways to Kill a sub with a Big Mac or 1001 Uses of a McDonalds Straw. I might start one in my area of expertise... "The Fetishistic Consequences of Infatuation with a Corkscrew" French Fries: McDonalds, Burger King or Wendy's ...Which is the Greater Punishment? Just a thought...

Aswad -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 12:07:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: backseatbebe im curious as why everyone is so concerned about it being safe? I'm not; play texas chainsaw massacre for all I care. [:D] I'm concerned about people being aware of the risk. quote: i often want things that arent safe to happen in play like being punched in the face or being pushed down stairs Either is fine by me, as long as it's fine by you. But I'd certainly comment on the safety of it in a thread about the activities.

Aswad -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 12:10:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds I don't really see how the application of pain with hands instead of with an instrument is any different. It isn't any different. Provided it is used in the same way, and same frame of mind. For some of those who do combat training, it might have special connotations, though.

mnottertail -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 1:28:48 PM)
This entire thread makes me want to punch EVERYBODY dead in the goddamm face................ LMCAO. Ron

kai13 -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 2:12:54 PM)
ok...let's take a step back and get serious... pillow fights might be too agressive and violent... squirt guns at 20 paces... NOW yer talkin'!!! Better yet? How about opening the back yard for play and taking it all the way to WATER BALLOONS! get the small ones... hand grenade size, like that Braves minor league manager with the rosin bag from behind the mound during his meltdown... put up barricades, small fortresses, like you used to do with snow before the snowball fights... use the picnic table for cover, military crawl to the supply depot behind the shed and watch out for the tripwire triggered bucket of water the brattysub set up earlier in the day for your restock... If edge play is your thing... this MIGHT be the next step!!! quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin What did everyone think those types of play entailed? Pillow Fights? LMAO I actually had someone once trying to explain to me that primal/extreme physical play was actually nothing more than the Dom/Master pinching. Even after trying to explain that it could be much more than that...they insisted that I was delusional and lived in a fantasy world. /sigh If that's the case...give me fantasy any day [:D]

fairerthanshe -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 2:13:05 PM)
Pray tell, Master Hup, what does the "C" stand for? Would that be 'cute' or 'curmudgeonly'? winks ~ fairer

mnottertail -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 2:14:58 PM)
cracker (it is a personal joke with blktallfullfig) TheWhiteRickJames

KnightofMists -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 3:21:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kai13 squirt guns at 20 paces... NOW yer talkin'!!! Better yet? How about opening the back yard for play and taking it all the way to WATER BALLOONS! Watersports???!!!!!!!!! what are you a sick'o!!!!! oh my god... the sick people in this world.. Look... I don't have a problem with punching and kicking someone till they are a walking bruise.. but watersports geeeeeezzzz what kind of people do those things??? (grabs the Fire hose.... if watersports it is.. then watersports they gonna get G)

Rover -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/12/2007 4:42:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail cracker (it is a personal joke with blktallfullfig) TheWhiteRickJames I lived up the street from Rick James. You sir, are no Rick James. (a thankful) John

nephandi -> RE: Punching your sub/slave? (7/13/2007 8:54:44 AM)
Hi quote: I'm not; play texas chainsaw massacre for all I care. Wonderful Master shall we pick up a chainsaw the next we are at the store? ;) i wish you well

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