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communication - 7/5/2007 2:24:32 PM

kubens

Posts: 21
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline

I'm a newbie sub, I recently had a difficult situation with my Domme. Recently we bought some nipple clamps, while at the store she was trying to decide between two sets of clamps, she asked advice from a store employee, but the clamps he recommended didn't workout, and she wished she had bought the others clamps instead. She asked me to return the clamps and get the other ones. several days later I went back to the store I decided I wasn't sure which clamps she wanted--though I realized later that I should have known. Not realizing how important it was to my Domme, I got a set of clamps of my chosing--big mistake. My Domme, upon seeing the clamps I picked out decided to punish me for getting the wrong ones. I was shocked, as I said I am a newbie, I had no idea that this was a punishable offense--like I said I new to this. Conversely, she was shocked that I didn't understand what was happening.

We ended up getting into a big arguement over this, in the end had to quit the D/s part of our relationship(we've remained freinds and hopefully we'll resume the D/s part of the relationship soon). I was upset because I felt she raised the stakes too fast too soon, while she didn't realize just how new I am to the scene. She said it best that we each project ourselves on to the other.

I'm sharing this because it underscores the importance of communication, and understanding where our partners are in their expectations. I didn't know my choice was subject to review, and she assumed I knew. As is so often the case our arguement, though difficult has, in the end, helped us to improve our communication.

Word to the wise: subs make sure you tell your Domme where you are experience-wise. And Dommes: don't assume your subbie is ready, especially if he/she is a newbie.

Post #: 1

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 2:29:47 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

It also shows the importance of being reasonable- having a big blow up over nipple clamps?
Sounds like everyone has some problem solving skills to brush up on, as well as a heavy does of get-some-perspective.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to kubens)

Post #: 2

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 2:49:56 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It also shows the importance of being reasonable- having a big blow up over nipple clamps?
Sounds like everyone has some problem solving skills to brush up on, as well as a heavy does of get-some-perspective.

Ditto to this!

Also where was her responsability in all of this. Did she even take the time to make sure you knew which ones to get. She aparently didnt let you know how importent it was to get the right ones. How where you do know that she only wants that one pair. its apparent there was loss of communication on both ends. If she really wanted that one pair she eather should have made damn well sure you knew wich one or *gasps* should have gotten them herself!!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 3

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 2:53:15 PM

earthycouple

Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline

Ditto the previous two replies.

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 4

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 3:24:33 PM

BoiJen

Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline

I'll be honest...they dot hat over pantyhose. Whatever. I've learned not to get upset and just apologize. If they don't have what she's looking for and you are unsure...just ask her. Or ask them for a rain check. Don't come home with the wrong thing. And ya know you can always ask in advance...hey what if I can't find them what's acceptable?

(in reply to kubens)

Post #: 5

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 3:26:52 PM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

kubens,

It is important that both people take responsiblity for communication all along but most importantly, in the begining. You have learned a valuable lesson that will serve you well... I am only sorry that you had a rough start, no matter the reasons. Stick around, read on the boards and you will find a wealth of imformation!

Good luck to you both

(in reply to earthycouple)

Post #: 6

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 7:25:04 PM

kubens

Posts: 21
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline

Lockit,
your comments are right on! thanx. my Domme and i have left the door open the get back to the D/s relationship, i believe you're right the lessons learned will serve me well. i've already done some soul searching about what i want and what i did wrong, so i've already grown from this. i was not serious enough, and she realizes that she came on too strong. i've also come to respect my Domme for what she did, even though it was tough for both of us, i now know that only way i could have learned what i needed to know.

< Message edited by kubens -- 7/5/2007 7:26:53 PM >

(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 7

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 7:34:53 PM

psykocloud

Posts: 50
Joined: 1/25/2006
Status: offline

It's good both of you realize what did wrong and have grown from it. Commucation is key to any relationship to grow. Both people have to work together to keep it going. Good Luck to both of you.

(in reply to kubens)

Post #: 8

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 7:39:12 PM

kubens

Posts: 21
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline

Magik's slave,
actually she did say that i should get the only other pair she look at i should have realized that. furthermore, i later remembered that when we were shopping she did say that she didn't like the ones i ended up getting. so i did make a poor choice, her only mistake was not communicating how important the right ones were. i should also point out that i now realize that i was not taking our relationship as seriously as i should have, truth is i was submitting to her because i like it when i should have been doing so to please her. no matter how this went down, it seems that the hard way was the only way for me to learn.

(in reply to kubens)

Post #: 9

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 8:22:25 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kubens
truth is i was submitting to her because i like it when i should have been doing so to please her.

What made you change your mind? Do you feel it's wrong to submit for BOTH reasons?

I think she made other mistakes- such as overreacting when she realized your expectations were not well matched at that point and that her training was not where she had anticipated it being. The mere fact that she felt that you not getting the right nipple clamps was reason to end the authority dynamic alone just shows a huge lack of perspective problem on her part.

But, it's your relationship and if you guys are working it out your way, then enjoy.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to kubens)

Post #: 10

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 9:44:09 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

Is it a punishable offense? Depends on the relationship, which is why communication is important. However, just telling your dominant you are new doesn't mean anything. Some dominants don't believe in treating new people much differently. And even as an experienced sub, I wouldn't expect to be punished harshly for this. A simple "I'm disapointed in you" would be more then enough.

Valyraen would not consider it a punishment-worthy offense in the traditional sense. He would just sent my lilly-white tail back to the store to exchange them or maybe make me buy the right clamps with my own money to teach me to pay better attention. Then again, I have ADHD and a bad memory. We expect me to forget things so my arms are frequently covered in sharpie notes. Hey, I can't lose my arm or forget it at home!

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kubens)

Post #: 11

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 9:56:20 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kubens

Magik's slave,
actually she did say that i should get the only other pair she look at i should have realized that. furthermore, i later remembered that when we were shopping she did say that she didn't like the ones i ended up getting. so i did make a poor choice, her only mistake was not communicating how important the right ones were. i should also point out that i now realize that i was not taking our relationship as seriously as i should have, truth is i was submitting to her because i like it when i should have been doing so to please her. no matter how this went down, it seems that the hard way was the only way for me to learn.

((shakes her head)) this will end a relationship fast!!! Mostly with you beeing resentfull of haveing to submit. First and formost you need to submit because it is something that makes you happy, something you want to do. If it doesnt make you happy to submit then it isnt the right kind of relationship for you. now Im not saying this means that you only submit when it makes you happy and she is asking you to do something you want to do(but you saud because it makes you happy not when it makes you happy and that is different), what it is I am saying that beeing a submissive over all makes you happy (this is the consentual part) So there for you are submitting because it makes you happy and your submission makes your Mistress happy.

Heck I could be wrong it has been known to happen but this is how I see it. There is no legal forsed slavery in most countries (if any Im not really sure if there are any that still allow real slavery) and there for those of us that choose to submit are doing so because we want to because it is what makes us happy and fullfilled.

I dont know If I made any sence here. I hope I did!!

Magik's slave

< Message edited by MagiksSlave -- 7/5/2007 10:05:56 PM >

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to kubens)

Post #: 12

RE: communication - 7/5/2007 10:01:46 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Is it a punishable offense? Depends on the relationship, which is why communication is important. However, just telling your dominant you are new doesn't mean anything. Some dominants don't believe in treating new people much differently. And even as an experienced sub, I wouldn't expect to be punished harshly for this. A simple "I'm disapointed in you" would be more then enough.

Valyraen would not consider it a punishment-worthy offense in the traditional sense. He would just sent my lilly-white tail back to the store to exchange them or maybe make me buy the right clamps with my own money to teach me to pay better attention. Then again, I have ADHD and a bad memory. We expect me to forget things so my arms are frequently covered in sharpie notes. Hey, I can't lose my arm or forget it at home!

I agree here. Personaly in MY relationship this would not be a punishable offence, though I would have to get my tail back to the store to get the right ones, it seems you arent on the same page as to what is punishable, I wont say most but all the sub/slaves I know arent into beeing punished for such little things to them and me Punishment is a big deal not to be taken lightly and given for every mistake, heck if it where we would be getting punished every day nearly. If you feel the same way then you need to make that known, tell her you dont want or need to be punished for every lil mistake. A lot of people dont thrive on that sort of thing heck i know it would make me feel like a failure and very discuraged. I agree with LA about the over reacting on her part. Im also with Aqua on the forgetfull ADHD thing.. some times if my head werent attached I would lose it, I cant tell you how many times Master told me to bring this or that or get the other thing on my way and I completley forgot, he has never punished me for it he just makes sure I write it down and then makes sure to remind me again befor I leave because I do forget, and since he is the same way he doesnt foult me for it, we are still humans you know!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 13

RE: communication - 7/6/2007 6:52:24 AM

LadyOpinx

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline

Sometimes a nipple clamp is just a nipple clamp.

Sometimes it is a sign of something else.

I am Kuben's Domme.

After we broke up I gave him my entire BDSM library and suggested he come to this forum if he had any questions. Then he sent me an email inviting me to watch this thread.

There are a couple of piece of missing information here.

First of all, Kubens and I were not 24/7. He lives about 35 minutes away and we saw each other once a weekend. He had Very Little to remember to do with Us.   It wasn't like I am the type to blow up over nothing. But when I am with a sub I want him or her to be attentive to what I say. That had not been happening. And we had been talking about it.

Kubens had also been asking for a different kind of relationship. He wanted to be more like boyfriend and girlfriend and call me "sweetie" instead of "Mistress"--but still have the same kind of BDSM sexlife. I said no to these things but I felt it didn't sit well with him. But he claimed he still wanted me as a Domme.

And as I understood the nipple clamps were a Gift for me for my toybag. (That is what I remember him saying at the start of our relationship 2 months ago.) He purchased them with his credit card when we were at the store a couple weeks ago. He lived minutes from the store. It made sense to send him to take them back to get the ones I had originally thought would work better.

It never entered my mind he would not get the ones I wanted and instead get the ones he had desired. When he sent me an email with a pic of him wearing the new ones proudly my thought was "Oh shit, now I have to work". I didn't feel I could let it go because I felt it was indicative of him not being attentive to what I said and I was 99% sure that he was topping from the bottom by choosing the ones he wanted instead of the ones I did.

I talked to 3 respected Dom friends of mine to see what they would do and they all thought it would be a punishable offense. In fact they all said to let it go would be a mistake.

Finally, any changing of heart that Kubens is doing is coming from reading SM101 by Jay Wiseman. That's one of the books I gave him the other day and he had been reading it and emailed me saying that he had learned some things about his attitude from it ...He pretty much summed it up in his posts here so I won't repeat what he said.

I've never brainwashed him or forced him to submit.

He came to me wanting a Domme to "guide him in the lifestyle". I was doing that to the best of my knowledge. I am serious and I will not have a power struggle with a submissive. (Even a beautiful one).

As it turns out, I didn't realize until AFTER the punishment when we were talking just how little he knew about the lifestyle.   He'd said he'd been looking into it for 2 years---and that he had seen porn.   To me "looking into it" would have meant research.   This is where I fucked up. I projected my way of investigating something onto him. Turns out he had just seen some porn.   He thought that everyone just kind of played at this and that no one really lived it seriously as a lifestyle.   I also assumed that because I had hundreds of dollars worth of toys and my business is oriented in dungeon design that he would know that I was serious about the lifestyle. But he told me later that he thought I was just playing at his level.

I take my responsibility as a Domme seriously. This has been an extremely difficult situation and having it aired here makes it even more difficult.    But my main objective was for Kubens to find out what he really needed---to get as much information as he could so he could make an informed choice about this lifestyle.

*Blessings*

Linda

_____________________________

"Every person, all the events in your life are there because you have drawn them there...What you choose to do with them is up to you." ~~~Richard Bach, "Illusions"

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 14

RE: communication - 7/6/2007 6:57:27 AM

kubens

Posts: 21
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline

obviously it's ok to submit for both reasons, but there will be times a Domme will require a sub to something he/she may not want to do. What i failed to make clear(my bad) was i must serve my Dommes needs first, her pleasure comes first, and if i do my job right i will be pleased in the process.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 15

RE: communication - 7/6/2007 7:27:13 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyOpinx
I take my responsibility as a Domme seriously. This has been an extremely difficult situation and having it aired here makes it even more difficult. But my main objective was for Kubens to find out what he really needed---to get as much information as he could so he could make an informed choice about this lifestyle.

*Blessings*

Linda

Thanks Linda, the additional information is very useful, though not really surprising overall.

There were other mistakes made than what you admit to here though. You chose to get involved in a serious commitment with someone BEFORE really evaluating the person and making sure they understood and could reasonably consent to the expectations involved.

And this: It never entered my mind he would not get the ones I wanted and instead get the ones he had desired.

While I understand this mistake, in fact I've made it a dozen times myself, it's still a mistake on your part. (blatant generalization ahead) Male subs have some weird circuitry going on and they can get really flustered and confused up there. It took my partner THREE TRIES to get a 12 pack of Pepsi for me. Regular Pepsi. First time he made the mistake, I laughed at him and corrected him. Second time, I was a bit flaggergasted and annoyed, but simply pritned a picture of what I wanted for him to take with him. Next time- he got what I wanted.

Training in the beginning really can be that basic and that boring and that tedious. But in the end, it's always worth it if you have someone sincerely willing and smart and open to learning.

I don't think you should have "let it go" at all. And with the addition of the information that you realized he wasn't ready for the relationship you were desiring, letting him go was the right thing to do at that time IMO. However, again, it's obvious to me that there were problems with communication and problem solving at just about every step of the way. None of which are incurable, just takes a lot of honesty and willingness to try.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LadyOpinx)

Post #: 16

RE: communication - 7/6/2007 9:13:05 AM

obis

Posts: 412
Joined: 9/9/2005
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Male subs have some weird circuitry going on

Now, it should come as no surprise to any woman that men are notoriously easy to distract, "wandering eye" and all that. I remember one Saturday afternoon I went out to get a bed frame and came home with a surround sound system. It looked more fun

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 17

RE: communication - 7/6/2007 11:58:44 AM

LadyOpinx

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
There were other mistakes made than what you admit to here though. You chose to get involved in a serious commitment with someone BEFORE really evaluating the person and making sure they understood and could reasonably consent to the expectations involved.

I see what you are saying, LA. But Kubens is a Quiet Man. I tried to evoke his stories and fantasies and history and it yielded a shadowy picture. Yet I had this gorgeous man at my feet telling me he wished to submit to me and please me. To give himself to me and that he was mine to do with as I pleased. That's heady stuff. And it wasn't like he was a vulnerable adult and couldn't make his own decisions. He was an man with a college degree and a job and an apartment---I really wasn't thinking consent was an issue.

And I think people also have a tendancy to want to sound more capable and knowledgable than they really are in any given subject if it comes into question. There may have been some of that happening with him too, and that helped to mislead my perception.

quote:

Training in the beginning really can be that basic and that boring and that tedious. But in the end, it's always worth it if you have someone sincerely willing and smart and open to learning.

I am beginning to see that now. My only other "newbie" sub was really a Dom who was submitting for the first time---but he knew the lifestyle and what to do. (They say Dom/mes can make the best subs). I have never guided someone as fresh as Kubens before.

I think I also based my expectations on how I would behave as a sub. When I have bottomed, I am very aware of my Master's words and desires at all times. And if I am not clear, I am careful to ask questions until I am clear.

But projecting my behavior onto him was wrong.

quote:

...it's obvious to me that there were problems with communication and problem solving at just about every step of the way. None of which are incurable, just takes a lot of honesty and willingness to try.

Yes, totally agree with you here. In fact it seems like we have talked more in the last few days since we "broke up" than in the whole two months of being together. I have found out much more about his past that I should have known before.

The important thing to me is that he seems to be committed to growing.

And as I told him in an email yesterday---I am immeasurably proud of him for that.

And I am committed to growing too. Reading these comments has been hard. But all of this will make me a better Domme and for that I am grateful.

*Bright Blessings*

Linda

_____________________________

"Every person, all the events in your life are there because you have drawn them there...What you choose to do with them is up to you." ~~~Richard Bach, "Illusions"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 18

RE: communication - 7/6/2007 2:02:15 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyOpinx

Sometimes a nipple clamp is just a nipple clamp.

Sometimes it is a sign of something else.

I am Kuben's Domme.

After we broke up I gave him my entire BDSM library and suggested he come to this forum if he had any questions. Then he sent me an email inviting me to watch this thread.

There are a couple of piece of missing information here.

First of all, Kubens and I were not 24/7. He lives about 35 minutes away and we saw each other once a weekend. He had Very Little to remember to do with Us.   It wasn't like I am the type to blow up over nothing. But when I am with a sub I want him or her to be attentive to what I say. That had not been happening. And we had been talking about it.

Kubens had also been asking for a different kind of relationship. He wanted to be more like boyfriend and girlfriend and call me "sweetie" instead of "Mistress"--but still have the same kind of BDSM sexlife. I said no to these things but I felt it didn't sit well with him. But he claimed he still wanted me as a Domme.

And as I understood the nipple clamps were a Gift for me for my toybag. (That is what I remember him saying at the start of our relationship 2 months ago.) He purchased them with his credit card when we were at the store a couple weeks ago. He lived minutes from the store. It made sense to send him to take them back to get the ones I had originally thought would work better.

It never entered my mind he would not get the ones I wanted and instead get the ones he had desired. When he sent me an email with a pic of him wearing the new ones proudly my thought was "Oh shit, now I have to work". I didn't feel I could let it go because I felt it was indicative of him not being attentive to what I said and I was 99% sure that he was topping from the bottom by choosing the ones he wanted instead of the ones I did.

I talked to 3 respected Dom friends of mine to see what they would do and they all thought it would be a punishable offense. In fact they all said to let it go would be a mistake.

Finally, any changing of heart that Kubens is doing is coming from reading SM101 by Jay Wiseman. That's one of the books I gave him the other day and he had been reading it and emailed me saying that he had learned some things about his attitude from it ...He pretty much summed it up in his posts here so I won't repeat what he said.

I've never brainwashed him or forced him to submit.

He came to me wanting a Domme to "guide him in the lifestyle". I was doing that to the best of my knowledge. I am serious and I will not have a power struggle with a submissive. (Even a beautiful one).

As it turns out, I didn't realize until AFTER the punishment when we were talking just how little he knew about the lifestyle.   He'd said he'd been looking into it for 2 years---and that he had seen porn.   To me "looking into it" would have meant research.   This is where I fucked up. I projected my way of investigating something onto him. Turns out he had just seen some porn.   He thought that everyone just kind of played at this and that no one really lived it seriously as a lifestyle.   I also assumed that because I had hundreds of dollars worth of toys and my business is oriented in dungeon design that he would know that I was serious about the lifestyle. But he told me later that he thought I was just playing at his level.

I take my responsibility as a Domme seriously. This has been an extremely difficult situation and having it aired here makes it even more difficult.    But my main objective was for Kubens to find out what he really needed---to get as much information as he could so he could make an informed choice about this lifestyle.

*Blessings*

Linda

That one paragraph says it all!!! No wonder why there where issues already, you werent even compatable in the most basic sence of compatability and that is what kind of D/s relationship you wanted to have. There is nothing wrong with not beeing compatable however it is wrong (In my opinion) and distructave to try and make someone something they arent or try to become something you arent or dont really desire to be.

As for you asking for advise from Dom friends well it has the same problems as him comeing here and asking for advise, they only got your side of what you THOUGHT was going on not what really was going on in his head and what was going on in his head makes a hell of a lot of difference in weather or not this is a punishable offence (and personaly I still dont think it was) besides I dont see how others telling you this was punishable based on very bias and limited info is a good reason to bring punishment into things. Master has never asked another person be them Dom or not if something I did was punishable. He always asks me what happend and why and beleaves what I have to say to be the absalute truth (such as that this wasnt done on perpose and that he didnt get the wrong nipple clamps on perpose which is what he said in his op and I see no reason not to beleave him) and desides based on that. (but thats just my relationship)

I see a lot of red flags here but then again its just my thoughts!

Magik's slave

< Message edited by MagiksSlave -- 7/6/2007 2:03:51 PM >

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to LadyOpinx)

Post #: 19

RE: communication - 7/6/2007 3:06:11 PM

LadyOpinx

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

I see a lot of red flags here but then again its just my thoughts!

Magik's slave

They say if it's gonna go bad--it's gonna go bad in isolation. That is why I told Kubens about the forum. I wanted him to have support. (His work schedule has not allowed him to go to any lifestyle events and make friends lately)

But having it all hashed out here is gut-wrenching to me.

Red flags? What kind? That he and I can't communicate? (That's obvious and being worked on) That he and I shouldn't be together? That he shouldn't be a sub? That I shouldn't be a Domme?

What you've got here is a couple of humans trying to figure some stuff out. Maybe sending him to collarchat wasn't a good idea. But like I said I wanted him to have somewhere to go to ask questions or see other's experiences. I wasn't about to tell him what or what not to say--but the way this is unfolding ...it's stressful.

And did everyone miss the post where Kubens mentions he respects me now for what I did because it was something he needed to learn?.

I am trying very hard not to be defensive about the criticisms here, and I want to be open to learn from other people's wisdom.

But it's harsh to be judged by strangers.

*Bright Blessings*

Linda

_____________________________

"Every person, all the events in your life are there because you have drawn them there...What you choose to do with them is up to you." ~~~Richard Bach, "Illusions"

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 20

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