RE: Drug Legalization

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HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/7/2007 10:46:33 PM)
A lot of people in this thread have proposed the idea that legalizing drugs would save the country a lot of money on the cost of incarceration. That really isn't the case however. We all saw recently how Paris Hilton was released as soon as she had done just over half her sentence. Martha Stuart was also released early.Virtually everyone who goes to jail or prison gets an early out. The reason is that there are more inmates than cells. If we stopped incarcerating drug offenders there would only be a very temporary dip in the prison population. Why? Because without the overcrowding all other offenders will wind up having to do their full sentence. As people stay longer the jails will fill up again for other offenses. In the end virtually no money will be saved in the prison system. The prisons will still be the same size and need the same staffing and the cost won't diminish. People will just be there longer. Proposed savings in the prison system is not really a compelling reason to legalize drugs.

Casie -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/7/2007 10:50:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind A lot of people in this thread have proposed the idea that legalizing drugs would save the country a lot of money on the cost of incarceration. That really isn't the case however. We all saw recently how Paris Hilton was released as soon as she had done just over half her sentence. Martha Stuart was also released early.Virtually everyone who goes to jail or prison gets an early out. The reason is that there are more inmates than cells. If we stopped incarcerating drug offenders there would only be a very temporary dip in the prison population. Why? Because without the overcrowding all other offenders will wind up having to do their full sentence. As people stay longer the jails will fill up again for other offenses. In the end virtually no money will be saved in the prison system. The prisons will still be the same size and need the same staffing and the cost won't diminish. People will just be there longer. Proposed savings in the prison system is not really a compelling reason to legalize drugs. Decent point yes. But you discount the fact that billions of dollars are spent on the "drug war" and people don't only get out early to make more space. It also includes rehabilitaion and making felons and benifical part of society agian.

HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/7/2007 11:02:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Casie Decent point yes. But you discount the fact that billions of dollars are spent on the "drug war" and people don't only get out early to make more space. It also includes rehabilitaion and making felons and benifical part of society agian. Casie, Quite true, at least until our political leaders find something else to declare war on and pump billions into. Likely it would be the "War on Pornography" next, maybe even the "War on BDSM." You know how political types hate when people enjoy themselves. In the end they'll find a way to spend the money because someone will make money in the process.

ElectraGlide -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/7/2007 11:03:32 PM)
Drugs are just bad period, you cant win either way, legal or not. While the drug addicts struggle being stoned and stupid, I guess the rest of us do not have to compete with them, and have a easier road of progress in the future. They just hold them selves back. The key is prevention, dont tangle with drugs and you will not get hooked. Prescription drugs is a whole other anchor around their neck. Many a person were prescribed something for a minor injury and got flat out hooked.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/7/2007 11:16:56 PM)
This country is so dysfunctional. Kids learn about sex from porn rather than responsible sex ed in school. Drugs are the only way most people have of dealing with social and mental issues society doesn't bother to equip youth with ways of dealing with and so they turn to drugs. A healthier society would have a lot less violence and drug use. I always find it amusing that those who worry about addiction if drugs were legalized often have a healthy stockpile of liquor...and yet dont' consider themselves alcoholics.

Sinergy -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 5:42:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind Quite true, at least until our political leaders find something else to declare war on and pump billions into. Likely it would be the "War on Pornography" next, maybe even the "War on BDSM." You know how political types hate when people enjoy themselves. In the end they'll find a way to spend the money because someone will make money in the process. So what you are saying is we should allow the Government to keep wasting billions of dollars fighting a losing battle against drugs in order to prevent them from wasting billions of dollars fighting a losing war against something else? Im not even sure how to respond to that. Sinergy

thompsonx -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 6:59:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: uwinceismile lighthearted: Is it possible that the problems these two individuals caused was because they were assholes and not because of the drugs they used? thompson id say that was more then a lil uncalled for..im sorry :) it was a lot uncalled for,,mr. thompson, i took the liberty of perusing your profile . please explain to me why a man of obvious intelligence, would call a woman he doesnt know family members assholes? surely you can make your point here , and have done so well i think, with out stooping so low as a personal attack on people who arent even here? perhaps a genuine apology? uwinceismile: Perhaps you should learn how to read. I made no personal attack on anyone. I simply asked if it were possible that they were assholes. Thanking you for your apology in advance. thompson

thompsonx -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 7:07:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: uwinceismile I read recently that something like 70% of the people in the slammer are there on drug related charges. Think of the savings to the tax payers if we needed 70% less jail space, 70% fewer prison guards,70% fewer judges and prosecutors. Think of how safe the streets might be if the cops had 70% more time to devote to real crime instead of busting some one doing dope. i have no issue with people who are in jail due to smoking reefer being released in all honesty.... but drug related charges,,,i seriously doubt that 70% of folks in lock up are there for getting high.... im sure that many were high when they robbed , killed , raped ect,,, If drugs are legal and cheap one does not need to rob to supply their habit. No one has suggested releasing rapist or murderers. If you doubt my figures perhaps you could supply information that might be contradictory. If you are unable to do original research you might avail yourself of one of the NORML sites. and i certainly wouldnt want them released ..period! so ur 70% figure is more then a lil misleading my friend :) It is not misleading it is fact. Fact always trumps opinion.

thompsonx -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 7:13:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: uwinceismile i have a "side" question if u folks will allow? i see the word addict...and addiction being used here often.... what do you think makes an addict an addict? and why will easier access make him/her better ? thank u again uwinceismile: I am addicted to many things ...good coffee,Belgian chocolate, long legged women with tight butts, rock and roll, Chopin and the list goes on. Why would I want to stop.

Stephann -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 7:25:16 AM)
To clarify, When they say 'drug related' they don't mean they were there for a drug conviction. It means that drugs factored in; robbing a store for drug money, or assault related to a drug deal. Stephan

thompsonx -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 8:05:10 AM)
ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind [/quote] Sinergy, Your pilot friend was victim of an aviation urban myth. I hear that one a lot. By the way I have been flying myself since I was 15 (Dad was a pilot as well) and I currently hold a Multi-engine Airline Transport Pilot rating, as well as Commercial Pilot for single engine, Certified Flight Instructor for Instruments and Airplanes, and Advanced Ground Instructor. I was also a participant in an FAA study on the effects of alcohol impairment on pilots. The study was actually kind of fun, we got drunk and went flying on purpose with a sober safety pilot in the right seat. The study was done with varying levels of impairment and also with time since last drink as a factor. No matter how high the impairment level so long as the pilot was still conscious they were able to start the aircraft, taxi out and take off. Most maneuvers in the air were performed successfully, though often out of normal parameters for the license level. The area where virtually all failed was the ability to shoot an instrument approach and then successfully transition to a visual landing. Just wasn't going to happen safely. [/quote] HaveRopeWillBind: Please correct me if I have misunderstood you but it appears that you are saying that no matter how drunk a pilot is, without passing out ,he can still pilot an aircraft with the exception that most but not all could not transition from an IFR landing to a VFR landing. thompson

farglebargle -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 8:08:58 AM)
So THAT'S why the Auto-Land button is there!

thompsonx -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 8:16:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann To clarify, When they say 'drug related' they don't mean they were there for a drug conviction. It means that drugs factored in; robbing a store for drug money, or assault related to a drug deal. Stephan Stephann: I am not unaware of what "drug related" means. It means not only possession,cultivation,transportation,distribution of the substance but also any crime or infraction that could be tied to it. It seems that the police get a stipend from the feds when they can find a way to tie anything to drugs. If drugs are legal and cheap then no one will rob, burgle or kill to get them. If those who abuse drugs die as a result then they cease to be a problem to society and they are out of the gene pool. I am not unaware of the myriad reasons or excuses that people use drugs. If someone chooses to hide from their problems or responsibilities by using drugs the monies not spent in arresting,processing and incarcerating them might be used to educate them in strategies to deal with their perceived problems. thompson

thompsonx -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 8:33:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind A lot of people in this thread have proposed the idea that legalizing drugs would save the country a lot of money on the cost of incarceration. That really isn't the case however. We all saw recently how Paris Hilton was released as soon as she had done just over half her sentence. Martha Stuart was also released early.Virtually everyone who goes to jail or prison gets an early out. The reason is that there are more inmates than cells. If we stopped incarcerating drug offenders there would only be a very temporary dip in the prison population. This just does not stand up to scrutiny. If you empty 70% of the cells in the prisons and stop refilling them with drug offenders they will not be refilled. Federal prison is the only prison system that does not give time off of a sentence for good behavior. Martha Stewart and Paris Hilton are hardly poster children for how the prison/jail system works. If we could fill that 70% vacancy rate in the prisons with murderers, rapist,con men and crooked cops and politicians I should think that you would be in favor of that. Why you seem so intent on following a policy that clearly does not work escapes me. Do you not wish to lock up criminals. Do you prefer to keep victim less crimes the primary focus of our legal system? Why? Because without the overcrowding all other offenders will wind up having to do their full sentence. As people stay longer the jails will fill up again for other offenses. They get out early because of the "time of for good behavior" concept. Overcrowding is only an accelerant to this process. In the end virtually no money will be saved in the prison system. The prisons will still be the same size and need the same staffing and the cost won't diminish. People will just be there longer. Proposed savings in the prison system is not really a compelling reason to legalize drugs. How you came to the conclusion that saving money was the compelling reason for legalizing drugs is beyond me. We should legalize drugs because it is a victim less crime and none of the governments business. If someone breaks the law while under the influence of drugs that is not an excuse. We prosecute drunk drivers for vehicular manslaughter. Please do not put words in my mouth. The savings to the taxpayer is but one more benefit to legalizing victim less crimes not a reason in and of itself.

ElectraGlide -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 8:57:13 AM)
People use the argument of legalization of drugs or prostitution so it can be taxed and help the government, like it would solve the goverment budget problem. Sorry but the government cant be helped when it comes to spending money, its spends all you give it, plus much more.

meatcleaver -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 10:00:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElectraGlide Drugs are just bad period, you cant win either way, legal or not. While the drug addicts struggle being stoned and stupid, I guess the rest of us do not have to compete with them, and have a easier road of progress in the future. They just hold them selves back. The key is prevention, dont tangle with drugs and you will not get hooked. Prescription drugs is a whole other anchor around their neck. Many a person were prescribed something for a minor injury and got flat out hooked. There is a project called the London project which was begun in London, hence its name but it was stopped by Thatcher but the Swiss run a project, still called the London project. It is basically giving addicts heroin. Each day the addicts are given heroin by their doctors. This enables the addicts to function and live an ordinary life, holding down a job and contirbuting to society like everyone else. The benefits are that the addicts get good quality clean drugs and needles, healthcare is reduced, as is crime, both crime normally commited by the addicts to get the money for drugs and the dealers are cut out of the equation. Nothing is perfect and this isn't but it is a big improvement on the idiotic war on drugs. The project was a success in London but was scuppered by blinkered conservatives.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 10:06:13 AM)
As requested http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/addictivepersonality.asp http://personaldevelopmentinstitute.com/addictions.htm http://www.ucalgary.ca/uofc/departments/UP/journals/IA/addictive_frame.html www.bostonneuropsa.org/PDF Files/Johnson.pdf http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/213/1/Psychological-Addiction-Physical-Addiction-Addictive-Character/Page1.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguments_for_and_against_drug_prohibition This one is broad and takes alot of reading but if it is important to you, then you will take the time http://www.drug-policy.org/ http://www.cato.org/dailys/06-16-99.html or better yet, instead of me digging in my favorites folder, do some of the research yourself. Look for case studies for an against, play your own devil's advocate when you feel a position is firm because you should be able to just reaffirm your position. Not much more to say, people will either research it or they will not. As someone who used to be as involved in the darker side as someone can get, it is more difficult to look from the top down and admit that what you think is true, may in fact not be. And now for the bonus round, why is optical isomers so important to organic chemist and what impact has it played on drugs today? Orion

thompsonx -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 10:09:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElectraGlide People use the argument of legalization of drugs or prostitution so it can be taxed and help the government, like it would solve the goverment budget problem. Sorry but the government cant be helped when it comes to spending money, its spends all you give it, plus much more. ElectraGlide: I am not sure why you have directed this post to me. Let me try this one more time. I am in favor of legalizing drugs and prostitution. I am not in favor of taxing drugs and prostitution. thompson

Stephann -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 10:11:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann To clarify, When they say 'drug related' they don't mean they were there for a drug conviction. It means that drugs factored in; robbing a store for drug money, or assault related to a drug deal. Stephan Stephann: I am not unaware of what "drug related" means. It means not only possession,cultivation,transportation,distribution of the substance but also any crime or infraction that could be tied to it. It seems that the police get a stipend from the feds when they can find a way to tie anything to drugs. If drugs are legal and cheap then no one will rob, burgle or kill to get them. If those who abuse drugs die as a result then they cease to be a problem to society and they are out of the gene pool. I am not unaware of the myriad reasons or excuses that people use drugs. If someone chooses to hide from their problems or responsibilities by using drugs the monies not spent in arresting,processing and incarcerating them might be used to educate them in strategies to deal with their perceived problems. thompson Thompson, Don't confuse my statement with my opinion. It means what it means; Drug related means that they are in jail, because drugs somehow factored into the equation. I personally support legalization, regulation, and taxation of all drugs. I don't think they should be given 'free.' I don't think the state should bear the burden of caring for these individuals. I do think that the proceeds from the taxation should go for long term, focused rehabilitation for addicts who volunteer. Not pansy, kiddy rehab, hard core boot camp style rehab. People will lie, cheat, and steal. Period. Drugs are just one of many reasons; but taking drugs leaves one more willing to engage in such behavior, just like someone is more likely to steal, attack, or destroy things when they're drunk. There's no 'good' solution; but the best one is the one that puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders that deserve it; those of the people who choose to partake. Stephan

thompsonx -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/8/2007 10:30:01 AM)
Stephann: I have not advocated free drugs. I think the price should reflect the cost of acquisition plus profit. I am not in favor of the government adding taxes for this or anything else. I believe we are taxed too heavily as it is. The reason the government is constantly seeking new ways to tax us is because they are not fiscally prudent. As for rehab...rehab is for quitters. If you want to quit then quit. Just the same as some one who is addicted to alcohol, nicotine or a poor diet. How one seeks to quit is up to that person. They can have boot camp or Betty Ford it makes no difference to me. I am happy with my vices and do not have any desire to quit any of them. thompson

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