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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 2:59:58 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Well, to address what you said directly:

quote:

While the urge may be strong at times BDSM is, for me, a want, not a need. I can live without it. I'd rather not live with out it, but I know that I can. I would never put my desire for BDSM over a primary relationship even if the person was non-kinky. I know this for a fact because I have been married to someone who is non-kinky for 11 years.


What you are pointing out here about yourself (relative to Maslow's hierarchy) is that you are either able to experience love without D/s (in your primary relationship) and so you have that need filled and are exploring D/s somewhere higher up the heirarchy (self-actualization, maybe?) or you are willing to sacrifice love for esteem (the esteem of your partner and your self-esteem) by honoring your committment to your significant other.

I think that the people who sabotage or otherwise leave "vanilla" relationships for D/s are those who have trouble experiencing love outside a D/s context. Maybe they've never really experienced love, but once discovering D/s they find, or at least think they found, a context in which they can. Their sacrificing their existing relationship is just them taking a step down the hierarchy. Meeting a lower level need that is more pressing than esteem.

Yes, there are many other models for human motivation. People go back to Maslow a lot because it seems to fit fairly well. Any model is just a model. It can never be truthful, only more or less useful.



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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 3:18:13 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas]I think that the people who sabotage or otherwise leave "vanilla" relationships for D/s are those who have trouble experiencing love outside a D/s context. Maybe they've never really experienced love, but once discovering D/s they find, or at least think they found, a context in which they can.



I agree with this in part, but there is another twist to it. For example, the reason My relationships were trashed was that the woman could not handle a dominating and controlling boyfriend/husband. Love had absolutely no bearing on the equation whatsoever. Indeed I loved several of them very much and they all loved Me, but the dynamic was an impossible one.

I do not believe "sabotage" as a rule has anything to do with it. The only relationships I purposely brought to an end were because the girl turned out to be a dumbass, psycho or domineering so and so.

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 3:43:51 PM   
Tempestspet


Posts: 360
Joined: 1/13/2005
Status: offline 		Perhaps, if you know what you want, and need to lead a happy and healthy life.... such as BDSM, or whatever under that huge umbrella... you won't even look into vanilla relationships, with marriage in mind.
In other words, figure out what you want before just...falling into the nearest "love" you can find. For people who the lifestyle is an ingrained thing... you know that if the dominant guy turns you on... that goody goody guy over there, is always going to turn your stomach, doesn't matter if he loves you, doesn't matter what his wallet looks like... he's not the person that for you.

Tempest's pet
jennifer


edited for spelling errors

< Message edited by Tempestspet -- 6/17/2005 3:44:26 PM >

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 3:49:19 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

I agree with this in part, but there is another twist to it. For example, the reason My relationships were trashed was that the woman could not handle a dominating and controlling boyfriend/husband.


In other words, she couldn't handle how you express.... love? The emotion is only the precursor. What does it motivate you to do? For you, it motivated you to control, posess, dominate. A masculine kind of love. You can't just feel it. To meet the need, you also must give expression to it (no, chanting "l love you" like a mantra doesn't cut it). Maybe in the final analysis, your need didn't get met afterall?

quote:

Love had absolutely no bearing on the equation whatsoever.


On the contrary, I'd say it had everything to do with it. See above.

quote:

I do not believe "sabotage" as a rule has anything to do with it. The only relationships I purposely brought to an end were because the girl turned out to be a dumbass, psycho or domineering so and so.


Well, people who sabotage relationship don't generally do it on purpose. It's more like one or both of you doing things to give the other license to go away.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 6/17/2005 3:54:12 PM >

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 5:27:03 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

I agree with this in part, but there is another twist to it. For example, the reason My relationships were trashed was that the woman could not handle a dominating and controlling boyfriend/husband.


In other words, she couldn't handle how you express.... love? The emotion is only the precursor. What does it motivate you to do? For you, it motivated you to control, posess, dominate. A masculine kind of love. You can't just feel it. To meet the need, you also must give expression to it (no, chanting "l love you" like a mantra doesn't cut it).


Noooo. Not at all. That is a ridiculous notion. I do not show My love to any woman by being domineering and controlling unless she desires Me to do so and that makes her happy, fulfilled, complete. I show My love by what I do for My pet, from the small things such as sending roses to her work, to cuddling her, giving her a shoulder to cry on, putting her needs before My own, making sacrifices to ensure her happiness and well-being. In other words, I give My life for her on an almost daily basis. This is the true definition of love.

To say that you show love by "being a man" and simply dominating and controlling her shows that You do not know what true love is. If anything that means that You should not be in the relationship, nor any relationship for that matter. Certainly, however, dominating and controlling a woman can be a form of showing love PROVIDED that makes her happy, that promotes her well-being, and that is something she willingly and happily gives You.

"Being a man" is all about putting the interests and well-being of Your partner above your own.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 6/17/2005 5:28:00 PM >

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 5:32:35 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
Well, people who sabotage relationship don't generally do it on purpose. It's more like one or both of you doing things to give the other license to go away.


I have never done this. Perhaps some people are idiotic wimps that can not kick T/their partners out the door and tell them to have a nice life, but when I have had enough, I simply tell them so, wish them all the best that life has to offer and show them to the door. In one case I had to remove the woman from My home and drop her off at her parents because she did not want to leave. When You are this good T/they call You Sir I guess. lol. j/k <vbg>

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 6:29:53 PM   
ProtagonistLily


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quote:

Having said all that I'm curious as to whether or not people feel their kink is a NEED or a WANT. Can it really be a NEED for anyone or is that just a way to justify what is at times reprehensible behaviour?

Your thoughts?


It's how I'm wired. I left the real time kink scene, to which I was active for 4 years for various reasons for a year and a half and came back. During that time I was away, I didn't feel whole...something was missing.

When I came back to the scene and acknowledged who and what I am, everything fell into place. I didn't necessarily get everything I wanted, but I didn't feel that weirdness...that something's wrong, something's missing thing.

I'm wired this way, and I am home again.

Lily

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 6:35:04 PM   
stormsfate


Posts: 849
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		Just call me selfish, but its a definate need <shrug>


best regards,
fate

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 6:57:04 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaggieLynn

In my opinion, a NEED is something you cannot live without.

Water
Food
Air

A desire or want may FEEL just as strong as a "need" but in reality, if you won't die without it it really isn't.

All of my adult life I've lived a D/s life without even knowing that that was what it was called. I've always enjoyed kinky sex, spanking, bondage and all of that, again...without even knowing there were names for it and groups that talked about it and books about it and all of that.

Would I want to give it up and live what we term as a "vanilla" lifestyle? No, not in the least. I would be miserable. But the fact is I would still survive.


Yes, it's clear that a person would not 'die' without their bdsm needs met. But, look at the number of people in solid relationships who denied their BDSM side for years and then eventually have to give in to it -- with huge potential risk in a lot of cases. It must be something extremely compelling, impossible to ignore, if it is worth risking losing a family? Is this same person just using kink as an excuse -- "I cannot deny my true self" -- to justify infidelity? Or, are they really living a horrible life without it? I don't know.

You also have to consider the fact that there *are* people who are into BDSM that are mentally sick. And, there are some people that are into things "that look like BDSM" that are mentally sick. These people do things against all knowledge of ethics and law to get their 'needs' met -- that's at the extreme level. Of course, whether or not you want to label them "sadistic psychotics" or something else is another point entirely -- personally, I don't lump them in with the BDSM enthusiasts at all, but that could be another thread entirely.

Finally, there's the other side of sexual dysfunction -- the BDSMer who cannot have sexual satisfaction at all without the involvement of their kink. Sexual fetishists that have been driven to that level -- a man who cannot get hard or cum without being fully crossdressed, for example.

I don't need bdsm to live day by day or to acheive sexual satisfaction. At the same time, I really can't say honestly if I could live without it. I took time to think about it and realized I've never had to live without it -- since my teens, there's always been opportunity to explore and satisfy my various urges, because even the most vanilla boyfriend generally would give it a try. There's always been an outlet.

I will say, though, that when the outlet was not *a sure thing* -- ie, when dating casually, between partners, etc -- the NEED seemed much more urgent. When I am in a committed relationship, it's not an urgent thing at all -- it's almost as if because I know I can whenever I want, there's no fear of it vanishing. If I had to get rid of all my gear tomorrow and shut the door on it completely, I think that'd be like a huge lifestyle change. I'd end up wanting to express it sensually, sexually, in other ways with my partner.

Akasha


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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 7:04:09 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		For one that never needed anything, i freely admit i need both Master and the D/s. Its not that i cant experience "love" with out it. i have. Though i have rarely been with out a "dominanting" partner. my first serious relationship was with a 27 year old man when i was 16. (granted he thought i was 18 for the first half of it) Point being, i have always seeked out and been interested in Dominanting partners, but with out D/s, i was usually just taken advantage of and un appreciated. Or they just thought i was nuts. my Need for Master and all that he entails, goes very deep. And yes you can LIVE with out needs being filled. When it comes to wants. Well i dunno. though i know i could pretty much LIVE without pretty much anything, as long as he was there.

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 7:19:02 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Saying BDSM is a want, not a need, is like saying that human rights are a want, not a need, because people can (and have) survived without them. Defining "need" as "something you'll drop dead without" means that nothing beyond food and water is a need.


Well I need food & water more then I need BDSM. We should look at it from a pyramid of needs, like Maslow's model.

I believe that in order for a relationship to succeed, I need it to have a certain degree of kink.

- LA


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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/17/2005 8:01:46 PM   
MaggieLynn


Posts: 48
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, it's clear that a person would not 'die' without their bdsm needs met. But, look at the number of people in solid relationships who denied their BDSM side for years and then eventually have to give in to it -- with huge potential risk in a lot of cases. It must be something extremely compelling, impossible to ignore, if it is worth risking losing a family? Is this same person just using kink as an excuse -- "I cannot deny my true self" -- to justify infidelity? Or, are they really living a horrible life without it? I don't know.


People leave their families for all sorts of reasons, they hit 40 and decide they want a 20 year old girlfriend.... their children grow up and leave home and they fall for the guy that teaches the art class they started taking.... they have hated each other for years and only stayed together for the kids in the first place.... they stumble across a bdsm site by accident and realize that reading about getting tied up and spanked made them hard/wet and chat led to phone calls which led to meeting for play which lead to suddenly not understanding how they even survived before kink.

Some on the other hand have felt from day one that something was missing, then happen to run across something, a website, an article, a book or a conversation that gave them an idea of what it was that was lacking. So they leave to fulfill that part of themselves that has been denied.

I still firmly belive that is is a "want", albeit a strong driving one rather than an actual need.

But it all boils down to semantics (sp?)

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/18/2005 12:19:55 PM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

To say that you show love by "being a man" and simply dominating and controlling her shows that You do not know what true love is. If anything that means that You should not be in the relationship, nor any relationship for that matter. Certainly, however, dominating and controlling a woman can be a form of showing love PROVIDED that makes her happy, that promotes her well-being, and that is something she willingly and happily gives You.


greetings, SirKenin.

The love that a man has for a woman, can manifest itself in many ways. females (in general) desire to be with a man who they recognize as capable. being capable is also subjective, but most females will look for a man who will indeed take care of her. keeping a girl in discipline is one aspect of that "love" and capability. my master is consistantly strict with me, he holds me to very high standards because he knows that i posess ability within my core to be a better human female. without his discilpine and guidance i would not have accomplished the things i have. for me this is love of the best kind. this is the love that will create for my master a valuable girl whom he can look apon and be proud. this manly love will then help me to look in the mirror and say "here is a girl whom is so beautiful, that a man saught to take her and keep her" his control of me IS love. it is...

quote:

Noooo. Not at all. That is a ridiculous notion. I do not show My love to any woman by being domineering and controlling unless she desires Me to do so and that makes her happy, fulfilled, complete. I show My love by what I do for My pet, from the small things such as sending roses to her work, to cuddling her, giving her a shoulder to cry on, putting her needs before My own, making sacrifices to ensure her happiness and well-being. In other words, I give My life for her on an almost daily basis. This is the true definition of love.


a female will know you love her if you treat your girl as it pleases you to treat her, not as it pleases her. Use your girl as you see fit, be tender as you see fit. be strict as you see fit.
My master does indeed allow me to cry on his shoulder, he does indeed allow me to beg for favors... and he is a kind man, and often will grant me my hearts desire... but i know.. in the deepest place, that its not because i "won him over" i know he allows me pleasures because it was his desire to see me smile.

My focus is centered on my master's needs, they come before my own. His need/desire is to have a healthy, well ballanced, emotionally stable slave... it's a beautiful circle is it not?

I have known true love for the first time in my 31 years... and it is in the control, consistant discipline and guidance my master has over my heart and body... but then again, maybe it's just me.

i wish you well,

in service,

edana

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/18/2005 1:37:37 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

.... putting her needs before My own, making sacrifices to ensure her happiness and well-being. In other words, I give My life for her on an almost daily basis. This is the true definition of love.


That comes very close to my defintion of consentual slavery (living your life in service to someone else). That's alright, though, many self-identified dominants actually live to serve the pleasure of their submissives. My definitions here aren't mainstream.

The rest of this is a little confusing Kenin. First you say:

quote:

For example, the reason My relationships were trashed was that the woman could not handle a dominating and controlling boyfriend/husband.


Then you say:

quote:

To say that you show love by "being a man" and simply dominating and controlling her shows that You do not know what true love is. If anything that means that You should not be in the relationship, nor any relationship for that matter. Certainly, however, dominating and controlling a woman can be a form of showing love PROVIDED that makes her happy, that promotes her well-being, and that is something she willingly and happily gives You.


You say that you should only be dominating and controlling if that is what pleases your partner, and if not, you aren't fit to be in any kind of relationship and don't know what love is, but at the same time you say that your relationships ended because you were dominating and controlling when your girl "couldn't handle it"? What's wrong with this picture?

All I'd suggest to you is that you consider the possibility that there might be more than one kind of "true love". Maybe being soft, and nurturing, and devoted, and service oriented isn't the only kind. Maybe, just maybe, you've tried to adopt the feminine notion of love as your own, and it just doesn't fit you. Maybe the reason your relationships were trashed wasn't your dominant and controlling nature, but your inability to integrate and accept your dominant and controlling nature. You were naturally inclined to do one thing (dominate and control) but felt like you "should" do something else (nurture and serve). I may not understand what "true love" is, but I do know that self-doubt is contageous.







< Message edited by Leonidas -- 6/18/2005 1:39:24 PM >

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/18/2005 2:14:48 PM   
feline


Posts: 1101
Joined: 2/23/2004
From: CA
Status: offline 		To put it simply for me . . . if I want a long lasting, happy relationship, then it needs to be "lifestyle" based.









Attachment (1)

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/19/2005 1:08:13 PM   
ltl1NY


Posts: 1
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		my thoughts on this are..

Would anyone consider someone in a coma, alive? Are they really alive? Okay, physically yes, but otherwise a person is dead. They are numb...cannot sense, feel, comprehend, react, etc.

The S/M to me is a want, and i struggle at times to live without it, because i love it so much. However, the power exchange to me is vital for me to be a 'well-balanced' individual. This doesn't mean that a person needs this every day to live, but on a somewhat consistent basis, for me. For me, it's as if i get taken to the highest peak imaginable on a roller coaster of emotions/feelings, and when i don't have it, it's reaching the bottom of the roller coaster. Everything in life is good in moderation and i seem to think for me, i 'need' that reminder every so often of my place and exchanging that power helps for me to operate at my optimum.

*just my thoughts - be well!

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Need vs. Want - 6/19/2005 1:34:15 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I will; in the main, go with what SirKenin said. I WANT HAPPINESS. I know where it goes updside-down for me. I know it can be a pleasant life. So, for the relational part, I havta find my own kind. I don't have to be happy cause I am one of the two kinds of people in the world. One kind, thinks " I am the problem, so if I cakk myself, the world is right." The other kind (me) thinks, " You are the problem, so I am gonna cakk you all.". Well, no need to go that far............... I would rather be happy, fullfilled and have a fun life.

Ron

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RE: Need vs. Want - 6/19/2005 2:08:16 PM   
nonuts4thshoney


Posts: 550
Joined: 6/12/2005
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

This is how I look at it-

BDSM to me is like reading books.

I won't die if I don't read another book, but it is a large part of what makes me a rounded, full, happy person and there's really no reason not to do it.

So while it's not necessary for survival, it's necessary for me to be fully fulfilled in my life, just like reading books.


I agree 100% with Emerald.


For me though I've seperated submission and kinky sex. Meaning I could live without kinky sex (it would suck ass) but I feel I NEED to be subbmissive. I think if I were in a vanilla relationship where we were equals I would be totally miserable. I love tending to my master. I wouldn't die from it but I could die from the new drinking hobby I may take on. LOL!!

Submission [I'm discovering] is a big part of me and I WANT it to remain a part of my life.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Need vs. Want - 6/19/2005 4:52:24 PM   
pygmalionsub


Posts: 30
Joined: 5/21/2005
Status: offline 		As far as i'm concerned, it doesn't matter if its a want or a need. If I met a married Dom who was keeping his extra martial affairs a secret, i would have no interest in him. If he can't be honest with himself and his wife, how can i trust that he would be honest with me.

Yeah, it sucks when your married to someone who isn't into the same thing as you, but that doesn't give you an automatic free ticket to cheat.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Need vs. Want - 6/19/2005 9:50:49 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		The main thing for me, which is a Need, is the
D/s power exchange.
Being more submissive in a relationship is some-
thing I Need because it is who I feel I am deep down
inside. Even though I do have somewhat of a Dominant
personality to the out-side world(mostly because of feelings
of self protection). I feel most content
doing things that make my Dominant partner happy
and to have her be the one who makes the decisions
and "steers" the relationship.

I like to play and add kink to our sexual interactions.
The play and physical kink enhances our relationship
but if she told me tomorrow that she wanted to stop
that piece, I would be able to deal, but the emotional
and sexual D/s would be a must for me.

*Brightspot

< Message edited by brightspot -- 6/19/2005 9:54:40 PM >

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