TigerNINTails
Posts: 178
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teamnoir
No, it's common sense. Ultimately, whether a player is top, bottom, dom, or sub, they are responsible for their own selves. We all are. Only you can state your own needs and only you can state or defend your boundaries. No one else can do those things.
I agree with that. In an ideal situation where the bottom or submissive is capable of either communicating that, or making that distinction. However, there is an overlapping responsibility of the Top, or the Dom, to recognize that they are responsible for safety, and to account for things which may interfere with that communication. How they do this is up to them, but it still must be done.
quote:
Original: teamnoir
Bottoms don't submit to tops. Submissives submit to doms. Tops and bottoms generally aren't even playing with power.
If a Top is engaged in bondage play with a bottom, they are still engaged in playing with power. The Top now has power (albeit only physically) over the bottom. With that power comes responsibility that overlaps and overrides (in the sense of control of the situation, whether they stay bound or not, whether the Top listens effectively to the bottom, interprets plaintive protests as "scene" or if they are real, etc.) the responsibility of the bottom. Yes, the bottom has the right and the responsibility to communicate any situation they feel they need to communicate, but there are again other situations that override their ability to do so reliably.
quote:
Original: teamnoir
I do all four at various times. And no, I've never been out of control as you state.
I wasn't intending to imply that any Top was "out of control", or that any bottom is totally "out of control" either. The fact that you might not have been is good for you. But it's not blanket for everyone. Some subs drop into sub-space, including bottoms, as it's a psychological headspace, not inexorably tied to being a submissive specifically, rather quickly. Some take a long while. Some never do at all. So it's not safe to assume that because you haven't, someone else won't. And that is where the Tops responsibility becomes paramount.
quote:
Original: teamnoir
At all times, even when I'm submitting, I am still, ultimately, responsible for myself. I may grant a dom significant lattitude, but ultimately, bottom line, if something happens that I don't like it's me who's responsible for allowing that and me who has the responsibility to fix it.
Agreed. I wasn't disagreeing with that point, I was simply making the statement that it does not absolve the Top for their responsibility for what occurs. If it was not for the Top or the Dom in the situation, then it couldn't have happened to the submissive or bottom. The Top is still responsible to a higher degree, as they are the one whose actions are paramount when they've taken control of the bottom, in whatever way they've done it.
I'm using "Top" as a generic, for covering anyone in any particular dynamic, but that might not be the best thing to do either, admittedly.
quote:
Original: teamnoir
To claim that it's my dom's fault is simply a form of blame and a way to throw away one's own personal power. This is neither necessary nor smart. And as dom, I neither encourage nor support this.
And I agree with that, if that was what I was saying. No, it's not what I'm saying. I don't support any sub or bottom saying "Well, I agreed to the scene, but when he did that, I wasn't expecting it, and therefore didn't like it, and I got hurt somehow, so it's all their fault." Nowhere in my statement should that have been read in.
If I'm big on personal responsibility of Tops and Doms during which time they've claimed a major amount of control in the scene, especially when it's highly likely the bottom can't communicate or differentiate their situation(s), I'm just as much for personal responsibility of the bottom, to understand that they ultimately made the decision to join in with that scene, and they have a responsibility to communicate all their concerns and to learn the Top or Dom and get their concerns answered satisfactorily, to state limits, to be aware of limits, and if possible to voice that they are reaching their limits. I didn't start my comments discounting that fact.
My statements were mainly focused on the fact that a Tops or Doms responsibility overlaps those same responsibilities of the bottom, and they are just as responsible if the bottom gets hurt, as the bottom. In fact, more so, as they should have been paying attention properly.
quote:
Original: teamnoir
As top or bottom, it's really not even relevant.
Agreed.
quote:
The only time a bottom can be expected to be responsible for themselves is prior to the beginning of the scene when they make a decision to engage in that scene or not to engage in it. After that, they are entrusting themselves, their well being, health and lives to the Top in question.
quote:
Original: teamnoir
I totally disagree. This is certainly not true for tops and bottoms or power parity SM play. However, it's also not true for d/s play either.
Each player enters into the scene, (or interaction in the case of relationships), voluntarily. And each has the option of ending the interaction at any point in time. If they do not have this option, then the interaction has ceased to be consensual.
If each player has the option of ending the interaction at any time, (that is, if the scene or relationship is consensual), then it could be said that each player is constantly, every moment, making a decision about whether to continue or not. Whether they are consciously aware of this decision, or whether they consciously debate this point or not, they still have this option from moment to moment. They must. Or the interaction is no longer consensual.
I agree again. In fact, really, at least in my head, that statement above was taking that into account. It just wasn't explicitly stated, rather it was implied. Until the bottom enters into a headspace that makes that judgement impossible so far as the bottoms capacity either mentally or physically.
Then it's still not acceptable for the Top to continue on, as if they don't have that responsibility, relying only on the submissive or bottom for communication that is now unreliable.
My whole point, is that while bottoms are responsible for themselves and their own actions, there are points where a Top or a Dominant becomes more acutely responsible for how the scene plays out, due to factors such as head-space or inability (due to gags) for the bottom to verbally communicate... In the case of the former, not even hand signs will work, and in the case of the latter, if things such as mittens are used, those are also rendered useless... So, given that, how is a bottom or submissive to communicate their problem?
This is where the Top needs to focuse their responsibility over the situation and encourage communication, getting nods, or grunts of approval or disapproval, shakes of the head, whatever... However it's done, is irrelevant, really, it's the fact that it needs to be done is all. That it's the Tops responsibility to be more proactive and alert than the bottom. After all, it's not the Top or the Dom whose having these things inflicted upon them.
I'm not advocating that a bottom relinquishes their own responsibility, but rather that a Top should be prepared to be more aware, more alert and more responsible, as they are controlling the scene. Especially when they disable common avenues of communication. Or there is a high probability of the submissive or bottom to become incapacitated, mentally, and incapable of delivering that sort of communication when it's appropriate. And it does happen.
Peace.
TNT
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