RE: obedience regardless???

RE: obedience regardless??? (Full Version)

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AquaticSub -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 10:56:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel And yes, I do believe in my case it would damage me emotionally to be required to do it, for a variety of reasons. We're all wired differently, and what wouldn't even make one person blink, could bring another to a very bad place. That's why I prefaced my earlier response with the statement that a dominant should know his submissive really well before pushing some buttons. I agree with this. If forced to work for some of the groups I've mentioned, I would be so disgusted with myself... I don't know what I would do. I would rather have him share me with other men or have him sleep with other women. I could handle that a lot better.

BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 11:07:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Slaveish someone is being harmed in my opinion. Not to get into the issue itself: I am forced to work with a pro-life organization, if I make a difference and help the group, thousands of young women who no longer have access to safe abortion will be harmed. No man on this planet is worth that stain on my hands to me, as a pro-life sub would not find the stain of working with pro-choice acceptable. If I were made to work with PETA out of punishment, the group that wants to take away my pets and endorses arson will be one step closer to their goal. I would be disgusted with myself and Valyraen. There are times when a person of morals and ethics can not obey. I can not obey an order to injure someone and I can not obey the order to further the cause of a group that I would spend my life working against. Excellent points Aqua! There are a lot of issues that can have far-reaching affects that people don't always consider. I would be horrified to know that someone who respected me and/or my opinion chose to support/oppose something because they saw me touting a viewpoint that wasn't my own, and was only being done because Sir Domly Dumbass was bored and wanted to mindfuck his submissive or test her obedience. Bah!

slaveish -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 11:09:22 AM)
It wasn't a personal attack, sinderella. It is merely my opinion of being obedient or not. ~shrug~ It does not seem to be a mortal wound. Would it be difficult for me to discuss the value of hunting for sport? You betcha. Would I try to open my mind and learn something - yes. I am assuming the Dom/me is not trying to force change in one's mind but rather broaden one's horizons to consider different viewpoints. It would be an intellectual challenge for me with very little (if any) emotion involved, although it might be humiliating. Humiliation, to me, can be quite satisfying. Then again, my Sir would challenge me in such ways because he knew my level of curiosity and need for cognition. It amused him to make me do such things, and I took great pleasure in the accomplishment, always attempting to surprise him with the depth of response. It was not a hard limit. I love to discuss issues and at times take an opposing view just for the sake of debate. He saw the opportunity for tasks. That simple.

Archer -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 11:14:41 AM)
Consider the assignment te way you consider a debate where the subject is chosen for you and the pro or con is drawn randomly and you are charged with debating the merits of the side you disagree with. Rarely are there any issues where there is "no" merit in the opposing view. Diametricly opposed could be asking too much, not sure I could ever order something that would require support for something that opposite even if our views differed that much on the subject. I might order the debate with someone, but that is a different thing than giving valuable support.

AquaticSub -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 11:17:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveish It wasn't a personal attack, sinderella. It is merely my opinion of being obedient or not. ~shrug~ It does not seem to be a mortal wound. Would it be difficult for me to discuss the value of hunting for sport? You betcha. Would I try to open my mind and learn something - yes. I am assuming the Dom/me is not trying to force change in one's mind but rather broaden one's horizons to consider different viewpoints. It would be an intellectual challenge for me with very little (if any) emotion involved, although it might be humiliating. Humiliation, to me, can be quite satisfying. Then again, my Sir would challenge me in such ways because he knew my level of curiosity and need for cognition. It amused him to make me do such things, and I took great pleasure in the accomplishment, always attempting to surprise him with the depth of response. It was not a hard limit. I love to discuss issues and at times take an opposing view just for the sake of debate. He saw the opportunity for tasks. That simple. There is a difference between having you learn and having you help further their cause. If Valyraen wanted me to learn about PETA, or an anti-gun point of view, he would have me visit their website, read their literature, perhaps write an essay about it. I could attend their conferences, listen to them speak, call their organization and ask questions. He would not force me to lie and say that their views match my own in some misguided attempt at a learning experience. Again, it does depend on the situation. Taking around a petition to widen a road or rename a park - whatever. Asking me to put aside my morals and ethics on issues that he already knows I have given a lot of thought to and researched.. it would violate every moral principle in my body. No one on this planet is worth my compromising my honor and my integrity by lying and saying that I support cause that I don't. Any man worth submitting to, in my humble opinion, would never do that.

jauntyone -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 11:22:14 AM)
quote: So is this where I point out that you're choosing to limit yourself to not having this experience? :) Greetings LuckyAlbatross LOL. Well, I am not sure that I would classify this as something to place a boundary on; so I could not answer this honestly. Something of this nature has never come up in our relationship before. Master admires my strict adherence to my beliefs; I can not imagine him forcing me to go against them. But then, as has been mentioned before; there can be a first time for everyone. Still though, I would not go so far as to say that this is something that requires the setting of 'boundaries' for . quote: What if he had made a commitment to pass out flyers at the mall and at the last minute something happened and he couldn't? If he told you to take his place as a service to him, would you do it? Greetings sublizzie I actually had to bring this up with Master first lol because quite honestly my first gut reaction was to say yes; I would. However, Master pointed something out to me while we were discussing this. He said that it would be against his own set of ethics and values to request such a thing of me so the question asked would not apply. He also said that if such a situation ever did arise, where he was unable to do something that was at odds with my own values; he would look elsewhere for assistance because to ask me to do so for the simple fact that he's the Master and I am the slave is an abuse of his power over me. So, I guess to answer your question...yes I would, but Master will not allow me to do so [&:] LOL I wish you both well melissa

SlND3R3LLA -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 11:44:29 AM)
I suppose that is just where people will differ and so will relationships. I don't feel attacked in the least, but answering back what I was asked. I will always talk about things and listen to their opinions, if nothing else it gives me a chance to say mine in the hope they might change theirs. I love learning new things, but that doesn't mean that my values will change because of it. If something goes against all of my core, there is no reason for me to do it, nor for him to request it. I suppose it just depends on what the thing means to you, and how much of yourself you are willing to compromise just to amuse someone else. I am sure you would disobey if he told you to hold a gun on another or to shoot them (just for his amusement).... to ask me to do something that goes against all of my values means about the same thing. We all have limits in what we will do just by being told...it's just where that line is that differs from person to person. ~sin, Masters lil angel

Wildfleurs -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 11:53:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sublizzie Another thread is discussing opinions and the ways to disagree within a D/s relationship. It brought a slightly different question to my mind. If you are in a relationship where you disagree with the Dominant, how would you handle it if they were to decide that you were to work a booth for an event touting the glories of their particular viewpoint? (ie, working a booth for the NRA if you're against guns, or stumping for a political candidate they love and you hate, etc) I'm sure there are some here who would probably do it whole-heartedly. I'm not sure I could though I haven't been in that situation to know one way or the other. How would this work in your particular relationship dynamic? I'm pretty cynical about politics - so I wouldn't have a problem doing it because I would see it as being pointless in terms of doing anything productive for changing conditions or problems. I'd find some way of skewing the perspective or some arguement that I could say without feeling really rediculous and just do it (it wouldn't be fun or anything but it wouldn't be as difficult as other things he could have me do). C~

lateralist1 -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 11:56:04 AM)
This is probably the most serious debate that I have ever read on CM and no one was flamed for their view point. What it does is point out the differences in the personalities and levels of understanding of individuals involved in D/s relationships. Knowledge of the person is imperative to constructive domination. It's easy to destroy both desire and submission. It's more difficult to build the depth and intensity of a relationship. Maybe we find who we deserve. Jauntyone you have one hell of a Dom. And if you read this you can tell him I said so.

earthycouple -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 11:59:49 AM)
I can not fathom asking (no less telling or making) Robert to do something I know he is so strongly opposed. I suppose an example for the two of us would be if I expected him to rally against something military. He is a retired career Marine and for me to suddenly make him voice opposition to being military would seem so inherently wrong for me (no matter what my belief). Just as I would not expect him to ask or beg me to tout something he knows I am against. For me it is as simple as knowing your partner and giving a damn about how they feel. Picking battles with partners is important and to me something like this is "hoop jumping" and simply a show for a dominant to say "I made my slave do X,Y and Z so ha...what can you make yours do?" I don't play those games.

MsOpal -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 12:30:57 PM)
I would like to ask the OP this question in response. Let's lay aside simple parades, handing out pamphletes and supporting a view you do not agree with. Your Master, whether he believes in it or only wishes to "test" your obdience to him, tells you to: #1 sign a petition supporting sexually explicit depictions of persons who are definately under the legal age limit of consent to send to congress in support of a national magazine that wants to publish such material #2 actively recruit persons who are under the legal age limit for the explicit purpose of taking and selling photographs and or movies of said underage persons in sexually active situations #3 take a sexually active role with said underage persons for the purpose of taking and selling photograps and or movies Do you really not have a moral line at all? Remember, he might be doign this just for a mindfuck, so saying he'd never make you do anything against the law does not apply. You do not know when he says it what he intent is. His intent does not matter. Your choice to obey or not obey does. How do you make that choice? Is it all black and white? Do you have to think about it? I have been a submissive in a 24 7 home for over a decade now, and even before that our marriage was pretty Ds, we just didn't have the name for it. I have gone from feeling submissive to feeling like a "true slave" to wondering what/who I am and back around again. Things, ideas, opinions, feelings DO change and morph with life experiences, times, and personal growth. Things I would have said in an email 5 years ago are no longer true and things I say now will undoubedly change again. Blanket statements about the fact that a submissive/slave has given their promise to obey meaning they have no choice but to do it, are (in mho) demeaning to both the Master and the slave. A Master who values his slave would (again imho) value that slave for everything that makes him/her who they are. If this is simply for a mindfuck - write me, I have many that are much better and do not require the s to sublimate who they are inside for the entertainment of the M. oh - yes I have had to make just such a decision and I did do what I was told; something much more potentially devestating than simply handing out papers. What I learned was that I should have stuck to my real self and told him that if it meant I had to leave I would. The end result and moral turmoil that resulted was not worth the satisfaction to either of us of my following his word. I learned, he learned, we lived through it, but not without substancial scars. It obviously didn't kill us, and yes it probably did make our relationship stronger, but it still wasn't worth it. MsOpal

Celeste43 -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 12:31:02 PM)
I would never have entered into a relationship where the possibility of being ordered to break my moral values existed. We discussed this ahead of time. It's my call as to when something hits that hard limit. For me, being forced to attend a hate rally is no different than being forced to participate in a bisexual experience, they are both violations of my moral code.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 12:36:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsOpal Do you really not have a moral line at all? Remember, he might be doign this just for a mindfuck, so saying he'd never make you do anything against the law does not apply. You do not know when he says it what he intent is. His intent does not matter. Your choice to obey or not obey does. How do you make that choice? Is it all black and white? Do you have to think about it? Well I think the OP was quite wise in choosing an issue that is controversial with some extreme points without having much to do with morality (politics) because I think we all have some moral point of perspective. The issue was, is and will always be- know what you're getting into. Being with a master who not only has a moral code severly deviating from you own, but one who would also expect you to conform to his might not really fulfill you. That's your choice to make. The age deal? No, that's not at all an issue for me at all actually. None of those scenarios you presented would be something I'd be blanketly against. Other things? Absolutely I'd be against them. But if you've made your choice to obey, and that this is the person you want to obey- then it really is a case of do it or don't. You can talk if you want, and that can be good, but it really does get that clear for me.

AquaticSub -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 12:38:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsOpal oh - yes I have had to make just such a decision and I did do what I was told; something much more potentially devestating than simply handing out papers. What I learned was that I should have stuck to my real self and told him that if it meant I had to leave I would. The end result and moral turmoil that resulted was not worth the satisfaction to either of us of my following his word. I learned, he learned, we lived through it, but not without substancial scars. It obviously didn't kill us, and yes it probably did make our relationship stronger, but it still wasn't worth it. MsOpal Thank you for sharing this.

Celeste43 -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 12:52:32 PM)
LA, for some of us political issues are in the moral realm. Southern Baptists are usually highly conservative in their politics and their morals. Quakers would view working for a gun organization as against their moral code. Most Jews are liberal simply because of the rules of the religion. I turned 18, my mother took me down to get registered to vote and told her friend at the Board of Elections that I would be a Liberal. I would never have thought of being otherwise. My morality, my religion, and my political beliefs are intertwined. Since the New York Liberal Party is moribund I am nowadays a political democrat for primary election purposes but I still vote liberal in views.

suboregano -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 1:20:46 PM)
The agreement Master and i have on this is that i will support His political views unless i can explain why i think/feel differently, to His satisfaction. So if i disagreed strongly about what the booth (in OP's example) was supporting, i would probably have an opportunity to talk my way out of it. Slave kylee

kyraofMists -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 1:40:38 PM)
Considering the place that I am at in my relationship with him, I would do it and the only questions asked would be clarification to know exactly what he expected of me. At this point in our relationship I trust him enough to know that he would not instruct me to do something if he had any reservations that it would harm someone or me. Knight's Kyra

sublizzie -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/9/2007 10:48:47 PM)
~ fast reply ~ My thanks for the serious answers to my questions. I don't know how I would deal with the situation myself. I don't think I would break my core beliefs/moral code. I might skirt the line on occasion to obey but I doubt I would break the essence of who I am for someone else. I would no longer be me if I did that.

beargonewild -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/10/2007 5:51:31 AM)
Personally, I wouldn't expect nor appreciate a dom attempting to alter my core fundemental beliefs. I would hppe they would respect the fact thta I have a strong moral/ethical code even if many issues vastly differred from his. On some things, I would "obey" by learning more about the isue and in the same hand, I would not try to break my boy's core beliefs when they differ from mine. It is a different story to positively test these beliefs for a good healthy debate. One would gain a better insigth on the Dom or sub's thought process and in a way reinforce the bond between the two.

OsideGirl -> RE: obedience regardless??? (7/10/2007 7:15:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveish It is difficult to wrap my head around the idea that if a sub or slave would refuse to do a task that is neither physically harmful nor emotionally damaging on the basis that she doesn't "agree" with it. I consider it to be lieing and unethical, so that's a ground for not doing it. It would be lieing to the people I'm speaking to and misrepresenting myself. I would consider that emotionally damaging.

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