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Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:35:34 PM   
stateira


Posts: 48
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline 		I understand and totally agree that a submissive should be punished if she is in the wrong.  But what if the submissive and dominant get in an argument (as people living together will sometimes do) that the dominant started or was a huge part of?  If the sub takes responsibility for her part of the argument and apologizes several times, but the dom won't acknowledge her apologies or that he had anything to do with the argument, even if he started the fight, should the submissive still be punished?
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:41:46 PM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I don't necessarily agree on the whole "punishment" thing to begin with.  If I've done something "wrong" I'd simply rather be told and I'll take corrective action to be sure that I don't do it again.  Or, it could be that I misunderstood something.  Anyway, I would say that a dominant that can't admit that he was part of an argument or that he may, in fact, have been the one in the "wrong" (gasp), is pretty immature.  I mean, EVERYONE is wrong once in awhile and doms make mistakes just like everyone else.  While I don't think there has to be huge declarations of fault, I do think he should acknowledge his mistake.

(in reply to stateira)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:45:38 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stateira

I understand and totally agree that a submissive should be punished if she is in the wrong.  But what if the submissive and dominant get in an argument (as people living together will sometimes do) that the dominant started or was a huge part of?  If the sub takes responsibility for her part of the argument and apologizes several times, but the dom won't acknowledge her apologies or that he had anything to do with the argument, even if he started the fight, should the submissive still be punished?


I don't own her, and therefor don't determine when she should or shouldn't be punished.  And she has one Master to whom she answers and makes those determinations.  Not two hundred online.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to stateira)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:46:05 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		While it is the perrogative of the dominant to punish when they deem it appropriate, there are times when it is unwise.  A dominant who is routinely unfair in their punishments risks losing the trust and respect of the submissive, and perhaps losing the submissive as a result.  If a submissive thinks a punishment was unfair they can ask to discuss it... afterwards (rather than using the protest as a means of escaping punishment)... or else the submissive can simply walk out of the relationship (the ultimate form of protest).

My personal rule about punishing and disciplining a slave is simple.

Never punish in anger.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to stateira)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:50:25 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		NO... but if he isn't seeing his part... in a lot of cases... she would be.  Not only will this cause problems for her... but for him as well.  A moments anger and punishment in the mix... not good to start with... but to punish when one is blaming the other for their own fault is a sign of something I would seriously question and consider near a deal breaker, if it wasn't seen and corrected and not repeated.

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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:50:39 PM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Question Padriag...why do you think the sub should wait until after the punishment to discuss it?  I mean, I don't necessarily (although it could in some cases) think that the protest is a means of escaping punishment.  And although, it may be the dom's perogative, as you stated, routinely punishing unfairly could lead to losing the submissive.

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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:50:54 PM   
kaprecia


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/8/2007
Status: offline 		The Dom has the perogative to punish as he/she sees fit, to punish with no found reason seems silly and dangerous to the relationship itself.  Then again, I am not into the punishment thing at all.  Like a previous poster said, if I have done something wrong, tell me and I will not do it again.  If I continue to do it, maybe I am not serious in my submission.

Just my take.
kaprecia

(in reply to stateira)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:52:16 PM   
SlND3R3LLA


Posts: 118
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline 		It's hard to say without knowing exactly what happened.  I am not much one for punishments either, but I am not one to just not do something I know I should.  I suppose if I downright disobeyed, I would deserve to have something happen, but I don't know what that would be.  If he started it, I am not sure why he would be acting that way, other than he knows he is wrong and doesn't want to admit it.
 
Punishment to me is sort of being like a child, I am a grown woman that knows what she is to do as his slave, therefore there should be no need for that in our lives.  If I have not done something I should, it was probably due to lack of communication or misunderstanding, and we all make mistakes.  Just tell me I did it, and I won't do it in the future, that simple.
 
~sin, Masters good slave

_____________________________

And in that moment, everything I knew to be true about myself up until then was gone. I was acting like another woman, yet I was more myself than ever before. ~F

To hell with diamonds, lube is a girls best friend ;)

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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:53:54 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		i am on the team of if you tell me what i did wrong and explain it if i need you to, then i will correct my behavior..."I am disapointed in you" are some of the harshest words a Dom can say to his sub...it is like a sucker punch to me...and if i've really done something that bad, thats all it takes for me...

though...i have had it suggested that i agree to be punished (prior to anything requiring it) so that i can release whatever it is and be done with it...because i can beat myself up 10 times worse than you ever could...

as for your question...were you told that if you ever argued with him you would be punished? if so, it doesn't matter who started it...if not...how can you be punished for something you had no rule for? or was it some element of the argument that caused him to feel you need to be punished?

and i totally agree with never punish in anger...wait till you are calmed down and doing it for the right reason...

good luck
chelle

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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:53:54 PM   
Rover


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Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kaprecia

Like a previous poster said, if I have done something wrong, tell me and I will not do it again.  If I continue to do it, maybe I am not serious in my submission.


That's a refreshingly adult statement.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to kaprecia)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:56:14 PM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Yup.  I find the concept of punishment to be demeaning.  After all, a submissive isn't a child (although some may like that dynamic and it works for them).  I don't need to be punished like a child.  Talk to me like an adult and, if I don't correct the behavior (or whatever) then, as kaprecia said, I may not be all that serious in my submission.  OR, it may be that the dynamic of our relationship needs to be redefined.

(in reply to kaprecia)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:56:29 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stateira

I understand and totally agree that a submissive should be punished if she is in the wrong.  But what if the submissive and dominant get in an argument (as people living together will sometimes do) that the dominant started or was a huge part of?  If the sub takes responsibility for her part of the argument and apologizes several times, but the dom won't acknowledge her apologies or that he had anything to do with the argument, even if he started the fight, should the submissive still be punished?
I believe that is the dynamic in action..who is to say who started?who is to say who is wrong? and finally who gets punished?..When in a D/s dynamic, it is not up to the submissive to punish a Dominant when he is in the wrong, it is simply up to that Dominant to think upon his actions and readjust them according to how he feels about them..If the Dominant feels the submissive should be punished then punished she/he will be..think upon it as being punished for your contribution to the argument..unfair?..possibly, but that is the dynamic you chose and agreed to, is it infallable?..are Dominants infallable?..nope!...But I am also pretty sure most will know when they have contributed to an exchange of anger, and learn from it...Tempting

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I have greatly enjoyed the second blooming...suddenly you find at the age of 50, that a whole new life has opened before you.........Agatha Christie.

You must make tracks into the unknown~~Thoreau

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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:57:39 PM   
babygirl005


Posts: 146
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline 		As an owner of a slave, I have every right to punish her as I see fit. I would never punish her for having an argument with me. I may punish her for being disrespectful during the argument, but not for the argument itself.
As for a sub, I would imagine she wouldn't stand for it, and would be right to question his punishment.  

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i love my Master!!

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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 3:59:22 PM   
ownedkitten


Posts: 200
Joined: 4/2/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings stateira,

No matter who started the arguement, or who was right or wrong - there is only once instance in which I will always get in trouble, and that is if I lose my temper and don't approach/address him correctly.  As for being wrong to punish, I agree that a Dominant/Master should be firm but fair in their approach.  

Let the submissive know what the problem is before punishing.  That way there's no question in her mind as to how the two connect.  In some instances it might help to have defined "punishment" for common infractions.   The "right" or "wrong" of it will also depend on where the "limits" were defined between the submissive and the Dominant.

As for "is it ever wrong" - in the dynamic I have with Master, no.  It is always at his discretion.  I do not have a say in the matter.

Grace & Fire,
caitriona


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"I don't mind living in a man's world as long as I can be a woman in it." -Marilyn Monroe

(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 4:01:08 PM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I guess if that works for you, but it would be hard for me not to say something.  I don't see it as a sub punishing a dom at all.  Nor is anyone pointing fingers.  Like I said, we all make mistakes and I would expect my dominant to be able to admit he made one when he did.  At the very least, I certainly wouldn't expect to be punished for something I hadn't done.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 4:10:17 PM   
Padriag


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Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Question Padriag...why do you think the sub should wait until after the punishment to discuss it?  I mean, I don't necessarily (although it could in some cases) think that the protest is a means of escaping punishment. 

Simple.  When a submissive is willing to accept the punishment first, and then discuss whether it was fair, it clearly shows their submission.  Then if the submissive feels the need to discuss it, feels it was unfair, etc. their is no question regarding their motives... they've already accepted the punishment.  It avoids a potential conflict (an argument over whether the submissive is trying to escape a punishment), demonstrates submission, and leaves the discussion for a time when it will mostly likely be best received.  Consider the frame of mind of a dominant who has just punished a submissive, the submissive accepted it without argument, and then only afterwards expressed what they felt was unfair.  I would imagine almost any dominant would be in such a frame of mind at that point to openly listen to what was said, without doubt or concern regarding the submissives motivation.  Of the few dominants who would not listen, I would question whether they cared about the submissive at all.  Personally, I would be favorably impressed with such a submissive.  If at that point they presented facts that convinced me the punishment was genuinely unfair or undeserved... it would be I who was humbled and I would seek to set things right.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to bandit25)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 4:12:46 PM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Ah.  I see your point.  Yes, I agree that is a very good way to demonstrate one's submission; however, if it became a habit, I doubt that I would continue to accept.  Well, I wouldn't still be there.

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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 4:25:09 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Yup.  I find the concept of punishment to be demeaning.  After all, a submissive isn't a child (although some may like that dynamic and it works for them).  I don't need to be punished like a child.  Talk to me like an adult and, if I don't correct the behavior (or whatever) then, as kaprecia said, I may not be all that serious in my submission.  OR, it may be that the dynamic of our relationship needs to be redefined.

That's becoming a popular belief within the lifestyle... its not one I share.  The belief is predicated on the idea that an adult can, or at least should be able to, modify their behavior at will without any external reinforcement.  The problem with that is that it often simply isn't the case.  If we could correct our behavior any time we chose, there would be no need for aids in quiting smoking, dieting, controling sleep habits, etc.  The reality is that reality itself punishes all of us all the time.  If you don't show up at work on time you may have your pay docked, or be given a lecture by your boss, or even fired... those are all forms of punishment.  Your alarm clock punishes you every morning by annoying you with that shrill buzzing until you get up and turn it off... and yet we go out and buy them because surprise surprise... most of us need that "punishment" in the morning to wake us up on time precisely because we are not all capable of waking up whenever we choose on our own.  Try speeding and see how long before you get punished with a ticket.  Try not paying your taxes and see how the IRS punishes you.  Punishment is not simply something parents dole out to children... we are all punished in a myriad of ways all our lives.  That might be artificial in the form of an alarm clock, social in the form of the disapproval of others, or even natural as in the case of sunburn if we stay outside too long without sunscreen.  All these punishments act to modify our behavior, to change it.  That is the point of punishment in its original form.  Punishment is not about harm, revenge, anger or violence... its not about getting even... it is about changing behavior... correcting it.  When punishment is used for any other reason, whether its a parent punishing a child, a master punishing a slave, a society punishing a member... then it is a perversion of what punishment should be.  Such other case are, in my opinion, wrong.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to bandit25)
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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 4:27:54 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Simple.  When a submissive is willing to accept the punishment first, and then discuss whether it was fair, it clearly shows their submission.  Then if the submissive feels the need to discuss it, feels it was unfair, etc. their is no question regarding their motives... they've already accepted the punishment.  It avoids a potential conflict (an argument over whether the submissive is trying to escape a punishment)....I would imagine almost any dominant would be in such a frame of mind at that point to openly listen to what was said, without doubt or concern regarding the submissives motivation

You mentioned the sub/slave's "motives" three times here.  I see your point but, in my relationship, this is never an issue.  Master is not one who is into doing much punishing.  He would rather just discuss things with me and teach me to do better.  However, as I've mentioned several times, there has been one major punishment during our 14 months together.  I felt a HUGE need to discuss it and Master permitted me to do so before any punishment was handed down.  There was no attempt on my part to negotiate what it would be or talk Him "out of it" and He was able to recognize my motives for what they were.  There was no attempt at manipulation on my part I assure you.

I'm taking it that you're kind of assuming that if a sub/slave isn't willing to stay completely silent and happily accept whatever punishment with no prior discussion, that they aren't all that submissive.  If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.  But, in any case, I would say that isn't true in every relationship.  I NEEDED to talk about it beforehand and was encouraged to do so.  He heard me out and let me know He understood my feelings but that didn't prevent me from being punished.  It didn't make the punishment any lighter.  What it DID do was show me what a loving, caring Master I have.  I've told Him often that just knowing He really listens to me and does His best to understand my point of view means the world to me.  That may not change His mind at all but it is vital for me to be permitted to discuss it. 
quote:

If at that point they presented facts that convinced me the punishment was genuinely unfair or undeserved... it would be I who was humbled and I would seek to set things right

Master allows me to present these facts beforehand.  IF something I said were to ever change His mind, then He wouldn't have to be humbled and set things right AFTER an undeserved punishment.  He would have avoided it in the first place.  That would make Him feel much better than trying to fix things afterwards.  But, as I said, it has not BEEN my motivation to persuade Him NOT to punish............luci

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RE: Is it ever wrong to punish? - 7/11/2007 4:28:23 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Ah.  I see your point.  Yes, I agree that is a very good way to demonstrate one's submission; however, if it became a habit, I doubt that I would continue to accept.  Well, I wouldn't still be there.

As I said, a dominant who habitually is unfair risks much.  That should stand as a warning to any dominant prone to being rash.  And no, I wouldn't expect you or any submissive to remain long in such circumstance, nor should any dominant.  That too, a warning.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to bandit25)
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