RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement

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juliaoceania -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 8:35:00 AM)
quote: I've heard Kucinich speak. He's a sharp guy. (Shame he's a damn commie [:D]) Hi Rich, I just wanted to say how deeply Dennis Kucinich (DK as I call him) has impacted me and how I think about the world. He exemplifies how I want to live in this world on a few different levels and I wanted to express my deepest respect for him. The first way he has impacted me is his motivation (which I deduce by his actions) for being involved with public service. He would be willing to throw away his “career” for his principles. There are very few people in this world that have that sort of belief in themselves and their inner compass to do that. He has proven his willingness to do this when he took on energy concerns in his home state and was ousted as a result of this. This shows a character I hope to emulate. He debates issues, not people. He expresses ideas of deep intellect instead of pandering to the lowest common denominator. Again, there are very few in politics that continually take the high road. I have increasingly decided to adopt this way of being, I just want to talk about the ideas, not stoop to personal attacks… ideas not people are what I want to debate. I think this is part of the reason I avoid political threads more and more… … and this leads me to the thing that I not only admire about DK, but that I have made a commitment to emulating about his life. His complete focus on what he wants rather than what he doesn’t is really something to admire and strive for. He shows this with his Department of Peace idea… which he is laughed at and ridiculed for, but only because people do not understand the power of it. What one focuses on grows, if one wants peace they need to focus on that, not on the alternative. We as a nation gear for war, all we seem to have is war on some part of the globe, it makes sense that we get that which we prepare for.. it is a spiritual concept to me. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me, could have been written about DK’s life, because while he does not shy away from exposing injustices and shining a light on them, it is only because there can be no peace without justice. It is not a vindictive sort of concept, but a healing one. I long to attract the DKs of this world into my life. I want peace to start with me. I have decided there is no debate worth losing my inner peace for. I decide whether or not I am at peace, no one else. I cannot project peace into the world unless I have my own inner peace, and the way to inner peace is not by resisting people that want to argue or hurt me in some way. It all starts with me, and DK’s life really demonstrates this.

Level -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 9:49:51 AM)
Good post, julia.

TheHeretic -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 10:27:28 AM)
Great links, Level. I particularly liked this little snippet Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) drew only modest boos at a gathering of liberal activists yesterday, a sign of how well her changing position on Iraq is playing in the antiwar wing of her party. Only modest 'boos' huh? That's very encouraging. [:D] The lens I look through at this issue is my favorite Uncle. He's one of those "yellow-dog Democrats." He's not a political activist by any stretch the of imagination, no guarantee he'll turn up for the primary, but when the general election rolls around, he WILL vote a straight Dem ticket. The anti-war bundle pisses him off though. He sees a tinge of anti-Americanism that offends him. He hates Jane Fonda's guts and his flag is out early on the 4th of July. Get too much of that rubbing off on the Dem nominee, he might just go straight home after work on election day. Hillary might be a lot better off if she never stops getting some boos and hisses.

TheHeretic -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 10:49:41 AM)
Thanks for your post, Julia. I wish you all the best in your endeavor.

Level -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 11:06:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Great links, Level. I particularly liked this little snippet Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) drew only modest boos at a gathering of liberal activists yesterday, a sign of how well her changing position on Iraq is playing in the antiwar wing of her party. Only modest 'boos' huh? That's very encouraging. [:D] The lens I look through at this issue is my favorite Uncle. He's one of those "yellow-dog Democrats." He's not a political activist by any stretch the of imagination, no guarantee he'll turn up for the primary, but when the general election rolls around, he WILL vote a straight Dem ticket. The anti-war bundle pisses him off though. He sees a tinge of anti-Americanism that offends him. He hates Jane Fonda's guts and his flag is out early on the 4th of July. Get too much of that rubbing off on the Dem nominee, he might just go straight home after work on election day. Hillary might be a lot better off if she never stops getting some boos and hisses. Those were some interesting links, I agree, Rich [:D]. Down here, you'll find a majority of the Democrats are very similar to your uncle, of the yellowdog variety. We love America, go to church, hunt, and often look askew at that neo-sophisiticate nose-in-the-air liberalism that often rears it's head on tv, if not on our streets here.

TheHeretic -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 6:25:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Down here, you'll find a majority of the Democrats are very similar to your uncle, of the yellowdog variety. We love America, go to church, hunt, and often look askew at that neo-sophisiticate nose-in-the-air liberalism that often rears it's head on tv, if not on our streets here. And if the radical elements made it clear that "they were in charge" of party direction? How big a push would it take to convince some of those neighbors to just go hunting on election day? I just don't think there is going to be room in the tent for moderate, life-long Democrats if Cindy Sheehan becomes the king-maker or (hehehehe) "The Decider." One group is going to be alienated sooner or later. It would be better, I think, to let the protesters walk out now (and probably have a lot of them trickle back rather than see a Republican win easily) than to have that middle decide at the end that their guy is just too kooky.

Real0ne -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 6:37:29 PM)
the best people to alienate is anyone who votes party line. Why bother voting at all? May as well have a machine vote for us if thats the case, it takes about as much brainwork. Of course i am guilty of doing the same (at oleast for prez). i vote 3rd party, a protest vote because none of them represent me. Since when has those runnning ffor office "really" represented those of you all back home? It never gonna happen. One issue maybe and my dog can run on one issue.

Lordandmaster -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 8:12:41 PM)
Just wondering, Heretic: What exactly do you have against Cindy Sheehan? The repeated posts you've made about her and how she's supposedly going to hijack the Democratic Party seem a bit inordinate. She's shrill. Other than that, what has she ever done to annoy you? She's not running for President, you know. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I just don't think there is going to be room in the tent for moderate, life-long Democrats if Cindy Sheehan becomes the king-maker or (hehehehe) "The Decider."

TheHeretic -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 8:30:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Just wondering, Heretic: What exactly do you have against Cindy Sheehan? As an individual human being? Nothing at all. As a spokesperson and figurehead of a movement? I think she is wrong and way too far left for my comfort. As a political player, I think her stunt (or deeply considered decision) this week was a mistake. Blame it on the nature of celebrity. I dislike the anti-war bundle and she is their most public face.

UtopianRanger -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/15/2007 9:39:54 PM)
quote: Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me, could have been written about DK’s life, because while he does not shy away from exposing injustices and shining a light on them, it is only because there can be no peace without justice. It is not a vindictive sort of concept, but a healing one. Damn Julia….. I missed your posts for a few days---I’m glad you’re back. I thought maybe you had quit posting or taken a real long vacation. But then I remembered that you’re part of the Aries Brother /Sisterhood, and our trademark is that we never quit, give-up or become intimidated. Anyways…. I read your little piece here and thought it was very good. But I gota ask ya : Does this now mean that you’ll never lead the way/become entwined again, in another ''Lets denigrate Wal-Mart thread''?[8\|] As for Kucinich : I have problems with his vision regards tax policy/ redistribution of wealth, and some of his ramblings that have to do with the second amendment – But I’d sure vote for him over anyone in that group of corporate cocksuckers that’s running around. - R

Lordandmaster -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/16/2007 9:47:12 AM)
OK, then what's your recipe for the war? How long do we stay? (Most of the new Democrats who were voted into office in 2006 ran on an anti-war platform--like the Congressman in my district--but let's leave that alone for now. If you don't like'em, you don't like'em; that's not going to change.) quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I dislike the anti-war bundle and she is their most public face.

TheHeretic -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/16/2007 5:49:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster OK, then what's your recipe for the war? How long do we stay? My recipe is moot, LaM. Somebody else already threw an improperly prepared piece of meat onto the grill, too close to the fire, before the charcoal fully shed the lighter fluid residue. There isn't going to be a delicious final product. This is where the 'recipe' analogy breaks, 'cuz we can't just chop that crap up for the dogs and order pizza. I never thought going into Iraq was such a hot idea to begin with, but it is what it is. Sudden withdrawal, the sort of plan the Senate is planning an all-nighter to discuss, would have disastrous consequences IMO. I think we are just flat stuck there until we find a way to stabilize what we broke (a multi-state solution, all the way to "promoting" some really nasty Iraqi Colonel with an iron fist mentality. As long as the country doesn't become a place for the Islamic Crazy People to reassemble themselves, I don't care). As for my attitude on the anti-war crowd, I'll see if I can come up with a link to a rant thread I did on the subject a while back and edit it in before I have to head back out. If not, I'll send it to you on the other side when I have time to prowl the archives. (LA would be proud...) http://www.collarchat.com/m_544586/mpage_1/key_Left%252CWar%252CIraq/tm.htm#544586

Sinergy -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/16/2007 8:51:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I think we are just flat stuck there until we find a way to stabilize what we broke (a multi-state solution, all the way to "promoting" some really nasty Iraqi Colonel with an iron fist mentality. As long as the country doesn't become a place for the Islamic Crazy People to reassemble themselves, I don't care). The problem is, TheHeretic, is that what we ended up with was the reason the Clinton administration considered (after expert study) going into Iraq was a stupid idea and would end up in an unfixable quagmire that would drag us down with it. http://dissidentnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/25/rolling-stone-leaving-iraq-three-scenarios-and-the-grim-truth/ When I posted this the first time, did you bother to read it? Or simply dismiss it as liberal nonsense from some left-wing rag? According to the following panel: Zbigniew Brzezinski National security adviser to President Carter Richard Clarke Counterterrorism czar from 1992 to 2003 Nir Rosen Author of In the Belly of the Green Bird, about Iraq’s spiral into civil war, speaking from Cairo, where he has been interviewing Iraqi refugees Gen. Tony McPeak (retired) Member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Gulf War Bob Graham Former chair, Senate Intelligence Committee Chas Freeman Ambassador to Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War; president of the Middle East Policy Council Paul Pillar Former lead counterterrorism analyst for the CIA Michael Scheuer Former chief of the CIA’s Osama bin Laden unit; author of Imperial Hubris Juan Cole Professor of modern Middle East history at the University of Michigan We will eventually leave. The question on the table is how much money do we want to throw at Iraq before we run away with our tail between our legs. Simply saying "we need to stay and fix it" is reminiscent of moonie eyed hippies chanting about peace, love, and granola. We are not in a position to fix the problem. They dont want us to fix the problem. We cannot afford to fix the problem. As long as we are there, Iraq cannot establish a stable state. The longer we are there, the more unstable the rest of the Middle East becomes. If you have any empirical studies which suggest a workable solution that you can cite, I would love to hear them, but simply parrotting Rush Limbauch and Ann Coulter and AnencephalyBoy is simply ignorant and misguided. Sinergy

TheHeretic -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/16/2007 8:57:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy If you have any empirical studies which suggest a workable solution that you can cite, I would love to hear them, but simply parrotting Rush Limbauch and Ann Coulter and AnencephalyBoy is simply ignorant and misguided. Sinergy awaiting approval

DSwriter -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/16/2007 9:26:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy The problem is, TheHeretic, is that what we ended up with was the reason the Clinton administration considered (after expert study) going into Iraq was a stupid idea and would end up in an unfixable quagmire that would drag us down with it. Nice posts Sinergy. It's a no-win situation that will only get worse. Similar to Vietnam, sooner or later the public will demand an end to the war. The politicans will end it to save their jobs. We will leave Iraq. The country will devolve into chaos. The democracy will topple. Someone in the military (like Hussein) will grab control. Or an Islamic radical like the Ayatollah. If a military man wins out, the U.S. will supply the new dictator with guns and money. Like the Shah or Hussein, when this new dictator slaughters thousands in the name of restoring peace, the U.S. will turn a blind eye. If a radical Ayatollah wins out, al-Qaeda will be welcomed there with open arms.

Sinergy -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/16/2007 9:31:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DSwriter Nice posts Sinergy. It's a no-win situation that will only get worse. Thank you, DSwriter. I posted elsewhere that they should set up a charity so all those who support the war in Iraq can swipe their credit card and pay for it. I want my taxes to fix roads, save spotted owls, give medical care to the afflicted, pay teachers a living wage, ensure clean water and food, etc., not blow up Iraqis or pay the Isrealis and the Palestineans to not shoot each other. Sinergy

TheHeretic -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/16/2007 10:03:08 PM)
McPeak: A Shia dictatorship headed by some lieutenant colonel who we don’t even know yet. I had to go read some damn lefty music rag? I already said that. So Rolling Stone picked a panel and then picked which answers to print. If this is your standard of 'empirical evidence,' I'm going to have fun.

Sinergy -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/17/2007 1:15:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic McPeak: A Shia dictatorship headed by some lieutenant colonel who we don’t even know yet. I had to go read some damn lefty music rag? I already said that. So Rolling Stone picked a panel and then picked which answers to print. If this is your standard of 'empirical evidence,' I'm going to have fun. Talk about picking and choosing which answers to print. I post an article from months ago talking about how the United States will not be able to maintain an indefinite presence in Iraq, and why, and list the people involved in the discussion. In turn, you pick the one sentence in the article that backs up something you posted a few days ago so that you could post that you thought of it first. Too funny. Sinergy

TheHeretic -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/17/2007 6:14:01 PM)
What is funny is you once again attacking me for something I didn't say, rather than coming anywhere near the words I did put on the screen. Here is a crazy idea; How about actually giving us your thoughts on the question of the OP? Will the Democrat party lose more votes than they gain/retain by pandering to the anti-war protest bundle? Semantics is hiding place for those who lack ideas.

Lordandmaster -> RE: The Democrats and the Anti-war movement (7/17/2007 6:16:47 PM)
Not exactly. Shi'ites abhor Al Qaeda. quote: ORIGINAL: DSwriter If a radical Ayatollah wins out, al-Qaeda will be welcomed there with open arms.

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