RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (Full Version)

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Level -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 3:48:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abytchgoddess4u

Unless one has made the absolute choice between life for their unborn child or death for themselves...they should STFU.



Most would not object to an abortion being done in these cases, I know that I don't. Of course, living in free countries, no one has to shut the fuck up, even if they do disagree.




Level -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 3:51:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello Level
 
I am a christian.  I do not like abortion - I don't believe anyone - or at least many people do, however I don't believe that the procedure should be criminalized or made illegal and there is no way I believe that any woman or man should be made to feel guilty for having to undertake the procedure.  I know you didn't ask the question, but the reason I have responded to you in particular is that abortion isn't convienient (and I do understand what you mean by convienient) and that is one of the unfortunate reasons (in reference back to the OP) that D&X happen.  I am lucky, I live in the UK - we do not have the whole fundemental mess that occurs in the states.  But If you look at the percentage of abortion reasons when it comes to partial birth, most occur due to the child already being dead or terminal.  Another reason high on the percentage (remembering the percentage is extremely small) is because a women cannot gain an early trimester termination.  Making early trimester abortions more difficult can mean more 'partial birth' abortions - how can that be justifiable by any party or religion?
 
Peace
the.dark.



Hello dark.
 
I have no issue with saving the mother's life.




kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 5:57:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I have no issue with saving the mother's life.



I would be interested in reading what you have issues with, Lev.




camille65 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 6:27:28 AM)

This is why I wrote what I did on my post here. THIS is what scares me because I know it is coming. It amazes me that those who are hyper aware of eroding personal rights don't see this, but instead remain entrenched in the emotional side of this so called battle.
It is not a battle of pro/anti choice.
It is a battle to retain the right for a woman to keep control over her own body without government interference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSwriter

Pres. Bush's most enduring legacy will be the appointment of two conservative Supreme Court Justices, Samuel Alito and John Roberts. 

The entire mood of the Court has shifted from the left to the right.  Most people are not aware of it, but dozens of extremely conservative opinions are already coming out of the Court.

The experts predict that when the abortion issue comes before the Court again, Roe v. Wade will be shot down.  It's only a matter of time.

This has already happened in several Central American countries where the Catholic Church is tied very closely to the government.  In places like El Salvador or Nicaragua where abortion is illegal - it is considered murder.  The penalty is life imprisonment.  (In Nicaragua and Chile you can't even have an abortion to save the mother's life.)

The New York Times ran an extremely informative article on this several months ago.  Women with money fly to Florida to have their abortions.  Poor women who can't afford birth control and can't afford another mouth to feed are forced into back alleys where the abortions are performed by dubious people wielding clothes hangers.

The Times interviewed one poor young 25 year old woman who went to one of these back alleys, where the person performing the abortion perforated her uterus.  The girl's choice was bleed to death or go to the hospital.  When she went to the hospital the doctors reported her to a government agent that is stationed there specifically to catch women like this.  The young girl was arrested, taken to court and convicted of murder.  She's now serving a life sentence.  The really sad thing is she has four children already - and they are now living on the street.

The Times also interviewed a pro-Life Senator here in the States.  The Times asked him if he believed abortion was murder, and the congressman responded "Yes!"  Then when the reporter told them how things are handled in Central America, and wanted to know what the penalty would be here in the U.S., the Senator did not have an answer.


This is the stuff of nightmares for me.
I am pro choice all the way. 'Choice'.

I want women to keep the option of being able to make their own 'choice' knowing they can safely do so.




CuriousLord -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 6:28:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Of course, living in free countries, no one has to shut the fuck up, even if they do disagree.


You wouldn't be saying this if you watched American Idol.




CuriousLord -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 7:12:26 AM)

The Abortion Argument, general:

Abortion, the act of destroying offspring in the mother's womb, is under a lot of controversy. The argument is often about mortality and ethics- is it right or not? The offspring's life or the mother's decision?

Why, one might consider, do we not simply kill orphans? Such kills would likely be benificial to society, rooting out those that would likely live a hard and service-consuming childhood when there are plenty of children in the world already. While a particular orphan might be the one to invent a cure to cancer, the same could be said for another child to be born to take his place, as the typical orphan is no more advantaged than the typical non-orphan. Perhaps, less so.

Why, then, do we care to try one for murder, should one do such a thing, if it would be practical? Two somewhat similar arguments seem to come into play. The first would be that, it would condone what might be considered murder to some (in the contemporary, most). Still, should murder be appended with "not applicable to orphans", this wouldn't be a problem. In the same way, many, a number of which are often associated with "pro-choice", would have "murder" appended "not applicatable to unborn". As this would be an argument of definitions for mental considers in the vague, this could be a valid argument to consider, though a messy one that few might be able to follow.

One may conclude this first argument with the notion that murder, common, is the act of ceasing the life functions of another developed human without the consent of state. It raises the question if the slaying of children is actually the same crime, and while this question has an answer, it is moot for the subjective consideration on abortion. Further, one comes to the understanding that the act of abortion may be similar to murder, proper, and thus may come with the same moral reasonings, though it is not exactly murder. Therefore, one might finally concludes that he must consider murder in earnest to establish the reasoning for it being a crime, then consider whether or not such reasonings apply to an unborn.

Murder, the act of slaying another, carries as previously mentioned, the fear of another being slayed. Therefore, those with a voice often speak against something that would be against their interests. As most living things carry a strong, if not utterly powerful, will to survive, even the chance of another slaying them often becomes and atrocity against their interests. In addition, one may often see himself in another- aspects of himself displayed in other life, moreso in other humans. In slaying one that another has empathy for, emotional concerns arise, doing damage to the empathizer. Further, logical points of consideration also arise in such an empathetic being. One such empathic being may well feel that his survival instinct has been infringed, seeing the target of his empathy as, to some extent or another, an extention of self in displaying such similar characteristics.

To this end, one comes to the second point of consideration. Not, "Is abortion murder?", but, rather, "Does abortion carry similar consquences as to the ones that cause murder to be abhorred?" One then may consider, "Do I have empathy for an unborn? How am I similar?" Such considerations are often answered with simplistic points of consideration, "Can it think? Does it have a somewhat developed body? Can it feel pain? Does its heart beat?" From here, one may make a judgement call of just how much this one empathizes with this being.

It seems that, often, one empathizes with an unborn. Exactly to what degree varies, though it's typically less than another adult human being and more than an animal one might eat. Abortion then becomes something ill-natured, though is it wrong enough to be illegal?

I'm afraid I must pick up from here later. Something compelled me to write at the expense of classtime, though missing a lab could prove to be a bit more painful than missing this lecture has been. The argument for legality is longer. For those who know and respect me, I will skim through it. For those who do not, you may feel free to consider it personally or/and to check up for a later continuation I hope to have time for.

Towards the end, one comes to ask, moreso in common, "Alright, abortion is bad. Though is it bad enough to warrent the oppurtunity expense of not enacting it?" This answer varies with empathy towards the mother- something females may tend to do more, though many males also empathize with females more strongly than other men- and empathy towards the unborn- which is more gender neutral. One need not empathize equally to conclude in favor of the unborn. It is the unborn's life versus some aspect of damage to the mother's life and other others that might be involved. Except in cases that such would kill the mother for certain, the mother would need to be considered significantly more valuable then the unborn to overcome the value of the unborn's life and the damage to the notion of the universal right to life.

In a possible follow up, I would like to address how the conclusion comes across for varying sections of the population. I would also hope to address the reason that many people tend become so polarized when, for many, it's not actually that clear of a decision.




kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 7:35:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

The Abortion Argument, general:



Your style's terribly long-winded. It's earily reminiscent of a high school student's verbose attempt to make one idea last longer on paper.

Your argument is easily compacted into one sentence: you believe abortion is murder.

Many others do: it's not because you make long block paragraphs that your point carries any more weight, Lordy. Now, try again.




domiguy -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 7:43:53 AM)

First off...You would have to end the current practice of in vitro fertilization....More than one egg is fertilized and a maximum of two eggs that have been successfully  fertilized are then utilized....What happens to the rest of the fertilized eggs? They are destroyed thereby committing MUUUUUURDER!!!!...MUHAHAHAHA!

What if the doctor were to accidentally mishandle the fertilized egg....Would he/she be guilty of murder? What if he dropped an unfertilized egg before it could be fertilized...There is every chance that the fertilization could have been successful and he has now deprived that egg from growing into a viable human being which could have emerged as our next American Idol....Murder?

This is for the most part a bunch of crap.  But not every pregnancy goes "the distance" and it would seem that the state would now put  themselves squarely inside a woman's womb as to any and every reason that a miscarriage came about.  Did you drink? Did you exercise? What did you eat?  You were not in good physical shape prior to getting pregnant...Are you not fully responsible or play a huge part in your pregnancy not coming to fruition, and thereby are you not directly responsible and should you not be held accountable for "your child's death?"....Manslaughter perhaps?  (I use the terminology of "child" only to drive the point home)

It is far from perfect....We should leave the abortion laws as written...If there is a God someone will have to answer...If there is not..So be it.




camille65 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 7:54:59 AM)

But.. but I thought YOU were god domiguy!
[8D]




domiguy -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:01:19 AM)

I'm not thee God...Perhaps a lesser diety....Unfortunately if this God doesn't get to work he won't be able to eat.....Fish and bread is sooooo fucking overated....I could die from scurvy....Must make the dollars to buy some citrus.




kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:02:31 AM)

Well quite. Additionally, I feel the need to reassess my status as a WOMAN, not just a female; and I must say loud and clear that women of childbearing age have lives of their own (can't believe it's necessary to say this). We aren't mere vessels for the next (male) genius.

Fuck! We aren't incubators after all.




domiguy -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:05:17 AM)

No....You are all meat wallets.




KatyLied -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:27:36 AM)

quote:

We aren't incubators after all.


But that is how some men and women view us.
I am staunchly pro-choice.  I don't like abortion, I never have.  But what I dislike more is the idea of anyone telling a women what to do, (how to use) her reproductive rights. 




kittinSol -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:36:29 AM)

Thing is, Katy, their argument completely bypasses the reproductive rights of women. They argue that ending a pregnancy is murder: and murder's not gender-based. The fact that a pregnancy occurs inside a woman's body is apparently incidental to them.

It's obvious that abortion is at best a disagreeable thing. But at times, a necessary thing nonetheless.




KatyLied -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:39:07 AM)

quote:

It's obvious that abortion is at best a disagreeable thing. But at times, a necessary thing nonetheless.


Yes, I agree.  I would never judge someone or get involved in a discussion about what they should do, unless they solicited my opinion.  Their body; their choice, the end.




NavyDDG54 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:41:19 AM)

but it's not her body, the fetus is not her body. It is life.If she doesnt want the baby, wear a condom, take the pill, get your tubes tied, or better yet dont have sex




KatyLied -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:45:16 AM)

The only thing that will work against pregnancy is abstinence.  No birth control is 100% effective.




camille65 -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:47:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

but it's not her body, the fetus is not her body. It is life.If she doesnt want the baby, wear a condom, take the pill, get your tubes tied, or better yet dont have sex


I have 2 questions for you NavyDDG54.

Do you have sexual intercourse with a female?
Have you had a vasectomy?

If you've not had a vasectomy I hope you realise the risk you are taking in getting a female pregnant.




KatyLied -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:53:28 AM)

quote:

but it's not her body, the fetus is not her body. It is life.


It is her body.  She is the primary, the host.
You may choose to think that the fetus is primary, I do not consider it that way.





SugarMyChurro -> RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion (7/17/2007 8:58:12 AM)

NavyDDG54:

I am glad that you had the cajones to write that - very brave. I am overjoyed that you have already agreed to my experiment based on your premise that things inside you are not necessarily part of your body and that you should have no rights over those things inside your body not intrinsically you.

What I'd like to do is have a live gerbil inserted in your asshole and kept alive for around 9 months. We will have the scratchy feet of the animal covered in soft rubber pads and build a small helmet to supply the gerbil with air from a hose dangling out your ass. The gerbil will be removed one hour a day for feeding and watering, all other activities will take place inside of your body. As the gerbil is not part of your body, I am sure that this arrangement will meet with your enthusiastic approval.

Please let me know your earliest opportunity for insertion of the gerbil.




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