RE: What should America do? (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 10:36:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

And the only reason Israel has superior firepower is because they have been fighting a war of survival for 59 years...that tends to cause military R&D


its because they were britains brain chid and they needed a babysitter and since the us and the uk have an umbilical cord marriage mom and dad take care of their children, especially when they run liittle missions(dirty deeds done dirt cheap)  or are they?




NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 10:36:43 PM)

Realone,
Terror State??
How is defending oneself, insuring the security and safety of it's citizens terrorism? I thought those were OBLIGATIONS that a government has?
Most of the suffering of the Arabs is not because of Israel, but because of Arabs.  All of the refugee camps were under Arab control from 1948-1967. Yet no refugees were assimilated. They were the only refugees of the 20 million caused by WWII that were not assimilated. And they have their Arab brothers to thank. Not Jews. The only Arabs that left the camps were ones that were let out by the terorrists, escaping the camps meant your family was going to be tortured and killed.
Even now Hamas has gangs roving the streets raping women and then giving them a choice: either the family conducts an honor killing or the woman can restore her family's honor by becoming a suicide bomber.
Learn the FACTS. not what the arab propoganda tells you.




NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 10:39:15 PM)

Britain's brain child?
That's why Britain prohibited Jewish immigration. That's why they were locked in internment camps, by the British. That's why Israel had to attack British troops before Britain would leave.  And actually the USSR was the first government to recognize Israel as a soverign country. America did not become involved with Israel until after it was evident the soviets were arming the Arabs.




Real0ne -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 10:40:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Realone,
Terror State??
How is defending oneself, insuring the security and safety of it's citizens terrorism? I thought those were OBLIGATIONS that a government has?
Most of the suffering of the Arabs is not because of Israel, but because of Arabs.  All of the refugee camps were under Arab control from 1948-1967. Yet no refugees were assimilated. They were the only refugees of the 20 million caused by WWII that were not assimilated. And they have their Arab brothers to thank. Not Jews. The only Arabs that left the camps were ones that were let out by the terorrists, escaping the camps meant your family was going to be tortured and killed.
Even now Hamas has gangs roving the streets raping women and then giving them a choice: either the family conducts an honor killing or the woman can restore her family's honor by becoming a suicide bomber.
Learn the FACTS. not what the arab propoganda tells you.



i dont recall any arab governemnts authorizing or signing any kind of treaties or agreements that isreal can set up house on their turf do you?




NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 10:46:21 PM)

Show me proof that it was Arab territory?
Prior to 1917 it belong to the Ottoman Turks, they lost it after WWI and then it became the Mandate of Britain, who was to rule until the local inhabitants(Jewish AND Arabic) could rule themselves.




luckydog1 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 10:47:22 PM)

"That certainly explains the missiles and bombs they have fired at Lebanon and their other neighbors over the years.

Peace through superior firepower.  I suppose that is where the Neo-cons learned it.

Care to comment on how well that strategy is working for them?

Sinergy

p.s.  Carter was the one who got all the warring powers to the negotiating table to figure out how to peacefully coexist, an effort that every Republican administration since then has worked diligently to dismantle. "

Well since Isreal's enemies are dedicated to destroying Isreal, I would say that thier continued existance means its a decent stratgey.  I guess if the Goal is the elimination of Isreal it is a horrible stratagey.

Really Carter got all the warring powers to the table, when exactly did that happen?




NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 10:47:51 PM)

Prior to the Turks it belong to various Arabs Kingdoms, prior to that it belonged to the Jews, prior to that it belonged to the Caannites and Phillistines, who no longer exist.




Real0ne -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 10:56:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Show me proof that it was Arab territory?
Prior to 1917 it belong to the Ottoman Turks, they lost it after WWI and then it became the Mandate of Britain, who was to rule until the local inhabitants(Jewish AND Arabic) could rule themselves.


in short the arabs are claiming it as theirs and have since the begining of time. if the turks were in control or the brits or anyone else does not change that.   Its the way the game is played over there and who am i to argue with their cultural practices on their turf.  Of course imperialist britain coiuld have given a shit any more than we do now.  Its called if they do not like it we will stick it up there asses till they do.   But you see that does not work with the ME ask russia about afghanastan.

My guess and its only a guess mind you is that if the jews were just to be dispersed throughout the country there would not be a problem, howver to have their own declared sovereign state with an alliance to the very countries that support them with an endless supply of arms does not sit to well.

Hell lets just put them in texas, or how about the mexicans let them control a chuck of texas and then china can supply them with weapons.  you would accept that right?




UtopianRanger -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:01:22 PM)

quote:



We need to take back our government. The government needs to start doing the will of the people. They are stewards of the positions they hold ... they are not kings.



Preach!!  This is why I see Mike Gravelle as a decent alternative. He's an ardent supporter of The National Initiative for Democracy which brings the American people back, directly into the decision-making through a national initiative process.

You wanna see the American people reclaim their rightful place on the throne --- This is it.





- R






NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:01:28 PM)

If you want to rationalize it like that the Jews claimed the land long before islam was a religion. There was a Jewish kingdom there hundreds of years before muhammed. and prior to that the Arabs never cared about Israel, hell even after that they really didnt for several hundred more years




NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:03:58 PM)

UR,
If we cant get 600 some representatives/senators to agree on major issues how do you expect to get millions of people to?




Real0ne -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:04:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

If you want to rationalize it like that the Jews claimed the land long before islam was a religion. There was a Jewish kingdom there hundreds of years before muhammed. and prior to that the Arabs never cared about Israel, hell even after that they really didnt for several hundred more years


i think i said "arabs"

they did not have nukes and f16's supplied by the us either back then







NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:06:57 PM)

and before Islam the Arabs didnt pay any special attention to Israel. Occassionally they attempted to conquer it(sometimes succeeding) but ultimately they would get kicked back out. It was the Babylonians, the Greeks, and the Romans who destroyed the temples and exiled the Jews.




NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:10:03 PM)

Actually the US did not supply Israel with nukes, they were developed in conjunction with South Africa.  The F-16's were supplied to limit Israeli production of a superior aircraft, the Levi. American sold the F-16's to Israel for such a low price(and the gvmt had GM raise the price on the Levi's engines incredibly high) that Israel could not afford to produce the Levi, and had to buy the f-16's instead. It was a not an act of mercy or support, it was about the US not wanting Israel to outpace it.




Real0ne -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:16:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Actually the US did not supply Israel with nukes, they were developed in conjunction with South Africa.  The F-16's were supplied to limit Israeli production of a superior aircraft, the Levi. American sold the F-16's to Israel for such a low price(and the gvmt had GM raise the price on the Levi's engines incredibly high) that Israel could not afford to produce the Levi, and had to buy the f-16's instead. It was a not an act of mercy or support, it was about the US not wanting Israel to outpace it.


well the business semantics wont change the arabs position and i have no reason to believe isreal is justified to be there based on the way the arabs handle property within their culture.




NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:23:05 PM)

So now because the arabs say something it must be the way it is done?
And actually Arabs believe in right of conquest. If you take it, it belongs to you until someone takes it from you(otherwise Fatah would be ruling Gaza right now)



http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/what-the-fight-in-israel-is-all-about.htm




NavyDDG54 -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:25:44 PM)

And by what justification do the Arabs claim it?
Abraham made the first claim in the name of the Jews, the Arabs descended from Abraham's bastard son.




UtopianRanger -> RE: What should America do? (7/15/2007 11:46:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

UR,
If we cant get 600 some representatives/senators to agree on major issues how do you expect to get millions of people to?


quote:

The Democracy Act is a proposed federal statute that 1) sets out deliberative legislative procedures (copied from Congress) to be used for initiative lawmaking by citizens in every government jurisdiction of the United States, 2) defines the limited powers of the Electoral Trust that administers the legislative procedures on behalf of the people, and 3) defines the electoral threshold that must be reached for the National Initiative to become the law of the land. It is important to understand that the National Initiative does not alter the existing structure or powers of representative governments. Rather, it adds an additional Check –– the People –– to our system of Checks and Balances, while setting up a working partnership between the people and their elected representatives.




As it mentions, a certain threshold /percentile that would be both defined and reached--- That would serve out as the will of the people.

Lets be clear,  NavyDDG54, there is no perfect system. But at least this initiative process would newly empower a large percentage of the people who are now clearly disillusioned by the whole process.

Remember.....most feel disempowered by politics because they think their votes don't count. This, at least, brings them back into the frey.

 Look...I know you're a young guy, but even you could not be so naive to think they know what's best for us.







- R






NeedToUseYou -> RE: What should America do? (7/16/2007 12:56:04 AM)

responding to the orignal OP, I didn't read the whole thread.

I'm for global economic involvement, I see no choice really in the short term, and for military isolationism. Use of the military if we are to be consistant with individual principles should be used under the sole purpose of protection.  Or are we to say it's okay to attack a fellow in a neighboring town because he might not like us, and spoke poorly of us. It's the same thing. My view now is Pre-emptive war used when an attack isn't inevitable(sorta makes it non-pre-emptive at that point), is morally the same as attacking an individual because they might attack you later.

As far as global structure and countries are concerned, I'm a believer that smaller is better for the people, and larger is better for organizations.
My basic premise, has evolved based on a psychogical observation, and that is the larger the group(organization, corporation, bank, government), the more immoral the individuals act. This is a pretty well documented phenomenon.

So, accepting that premise as an observable fact. I come to the conclusion that the less large organizations be it private or government the better.

I see however the impulse in the world at large to bring more control under fewer bodies, and the implications on diffusion of responsibility for the actions of the organization grows in proportion to its size.

Simple example: Two individuals on a street and one has a heart attack, the individual almost always comes to the aid of the distressed person. A crowded street with 100's of people, odds are many will pass assuming another will do the right thing. Same mentality occurs in the corporate world,  government or any organization. Once you have 1000's involved it increases the opportunity to transfer the obligation to the "others". End result more immoral behaviour occurs the larger the group. Now I understand everything can't be done one on one, but we sure could move the power away from big huge power stuctures to smaller ones, where responsiblity is easier to identify.


Thus the basis of my view against anything that is an expansion of control to large organizations.

I don't see how that isn't self evident.

So,  I guess my hope is for more power to the local end of the spectrum, and less to the large all encompassing institutions on the other end. But my gut tells me, that huge monolithic organizations effecting the lives of people they may never come in contact with, is popular, thus I believe we will see a direct rise in immoral behaviour, acted upon the people.

Trade is fine, I'd just prefer to trade with more smaller(organizations, governments, corporations, etc.) rather than less but bigger ones.





meatcleaver -> RE: What should America do? (7/16/2007 1:14:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

When will you accept the fact that the only country in the middle east that is truly devoted to peace is ISRAEL! Even now they are about to release 250 murderers in the hopes of making peace with Fatah, a terrorist organization whose charter still calls for the destruction of Israel.  Yet Israel is releasing murderers, allowing terrorists to re-enter the west bank, and cancelling warrants on other terrorist leaders in hopes of peace.  Israel gave up the Sinai for peace. Israel gave up Gaza for peace. Israel offered the Golan Heights to Syria numrous times in the name of peace(Syria rejected the offers). Prime Minister Barak offered 98% of the West Bank, Gaza, Golan, right of return, and more to Arafat at Camp David in the name of peace(Arafat said no without a counter offer, and even the Israel hating Clinton administration admitted that Arafat sabotaged the conference) Israel goes out of their way to spare civilians, even if means given up a target of oppertunity on a terrorist leader.



This is so not true.

We could go back to the beginning when zionists set up Israel through terrorist violence and without a comprehensive agreement that would have ensured a peaceful beginning for the partition of lands. The British policy of cut and run in 1948 was an abdication of their responsiblity and their using the newly formed and powerless UN as an excuse was criminal. At the time Earnest Bevin, the British foreign minister said, the Arabs have been served a great injustice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

As for the Israelis releasing 250 murderers, this is not true, the Israelis are holding around 8-10,000 Palestinians without trial, they are in effect interned and the 250 being released have never been charged with any crimes.

As for the 1967 war, that was started by what the Israelis called a pre-emptive strike. I admit tensions were high at the time and Nassa was playing brinkmanship but as for Israel being in danger, this was not true. The US, British and Israeli intelligence assessment at the time was that Israel could take on and win all its Arab neighbours, such was the bad condition of the Arab military at the time. The Israelis invaded the Gollan Heights some 24-48 hours after Egypt, the Syrians never attacked Israel!

Go back and look at the Barak proposal. What Barak was offering to Palestinians was life on reservations and not as a viable state as the Israelis now claim. The west bank would have been cut up with roads for the Israeli military from which the Palestinians would be banned. There would be Israeli military installations situated throughout the west bank and the Israelis would remain in control of the Palestinian water supplies, meaning that water would still be diverted away from Palestinian land to Israeli sttlements.

The reason the US backs Israel is because Israel is its only reliable allie in the region and America needed middle east oil. Israel were also the biggest gainers from the Iraq war should it have gone to plan. Now it is questionable if israel has gained from the Iraq war. American policy would have been much more productive had they made Israel compromise and work towards a just peace all could live with.

As for Israel wanting peace, they are using the wall they are building to snatch more Palestinian lands and advance the zionist cause of a greater Israel, there can be no other reason why Olmert is sanctioning yet more Israeli settlements on Palestinian lands and plan to divert yet more Palestinian water supplies away from Palestinian lands.

The Palestinians have been naive, they should give all the occupied land to Israel and say they want full civil rights and citizenship in return and then breed like hell. The Israelis would then have to increase their ethnic cleansing to a rate that would make their American allies uncomfortable or reconcile themselves to the fact they would have to allow a Palestinian state or have the nature of the Israeli state change completely to that of a secular state.




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