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Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/21/2005 11:55:20 PM   
davezzo


Posts: 7
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline 		I hope I don't get flamed for this as my question is sincere. I am a life-long masochist who loves the bite of the whip to more esoteric forms of submission. I have lived 24/7 TPE as a slave to an SM family, to periods of forced vanilla with wonderful relationships with professionals. A local DOM/friend introduced me to Compuserve's 12B, a BDSM forum started by Gloria Brahme. There I met my wife. We honeymooned on the Sonoma ranch of Duncan E, a notorious Dom well respected in the 12B community. I thought I was set for a wonderful life of pain and service. Until...

Half way through our decade+ marriage my wife was "born again" in a charismatic church. As spirituality grew in importance to her her interest in Ds BDSM declined to the point where it's nonexistent now. Good sub that I am, I followed her into religion and I too received Christ. But the cravings of the body, the cravings I've had since early childhood, have not gone away. What do I do about it?

Is Ds/BDSM and Christianity incompatible? Do I have to pick one or the other?

And, if my wife no longer participates, do I seek a relationship that meets my need to suffer and serve outside the marriage? Leaving her is out of the question.

I read here a thread about husbands looking for cheap thrills without their wife's knowlede. On that thread someone suggested that, as a sub, we should revel in providing service to our wives even when unasked for, and even when it does not involve what we call "play" (pain, bondage, whatever your cup of tea). I deactivated my profile when I read that because I think the suggestions rang very true and I've tried to live up to it. But the cravings to be bound, to be whipped, to serve as toilet, to be dressed (my particular kinks) are overwhelming.

Any suggestions? Should I seek out supplementary friendships? Visit professionals (I have a relationship with a very fine one in my town)? What do I say to my Christian wife, who very well may now see this activity as sinful and by speaking I could sow seeds of serious strife between us. I love her and I don't want to lose her.

Any suggestions?
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/22/2005 12:02:17 AM   
Rascalyrabbit


Posts: 56
Joined: 6/15/2005
Status: offline 		I think you need to speak to her about your feelings and be very honest about where your heart and mind are. I think that you don't need to choose between christ and BDSM. I think they can very much go hand and hand.

I think that you really need to find out where your wife's head is at in relation to her faith and BDSM.

_____________________________

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(in reply to davezzo)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/22/2005 1:26:37 AM   
BeachMystress


Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
Status: offline
I know people who are strongly religious (including a minister's son) and still active in BDSM. One of them told me that God made her the way she is, and she intends to honor him by living to her full potential in all areas, including BDSM. That was our only conversation on the subject, because while I'm very willing to discuss BDSM, I'm unwilling to engage in religious discussions.

As to how to talk with your wife about it, feel her out. Reminisce. One night when there is something that could legitimately trigger it- something on TV, or a part in a book you're reading- bring it up in a "we used to do that" way. Don't express it in a positive or negative light. Get her talking about it. If she feels it is dirty/sinful, you'll find out pretty quickly without having to admit you still have those needs (since you don't want to distress her.) If she does feel it is sinful, your best bet is to seek out the pro for your corporal needs and continue to serve your wife in the ways you can without her being overtly aware you're subbing.

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to davezzo)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/23/2005 7:11:21 AM   
diaperedbaby


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think it says in the Bible anything about fetishes or BDSM.
As long as you are playing with your wife, it would seem ok.
I am not a religious expert, just my opinion.

(in reply to BeachMystress)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/23/2005 12:43:37 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

I don't think it says in the Bible anything about fetishes or BDSM.


Well, the Apostle Paul comments a few times about how wives are supposed to be obediant to their husbands. If those verses are taken literally, as some do, it is supportive of a Maledom/femsub relationship but not a Femdomme/malesub relationship. So there could be trouble, depending upon how literal those passages are taken.

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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/23/2005 1:24:09 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

I don't think it says in the Bible anything about fetishes or BDSM.


Well, the Apostle Paul comments a few times about how wives are supposed to be obediant to their husbands. If those verses are taken literally, as some do, it is supportive of a Maledom/femsub relationship but not a Femdomme/malesub relationship. So there could be trouble, depending upon how literal those passages are taken.


That is why I have a strap-on and refer to my boy as my bitch. It makes it all right ;)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/23/2005 1:59:57 PM   
whiporee


Posts: 8
Joined: 3/14/2004
Status: offline 		Hi -

First, it's good to see a refugee from 12b. I met my wife there, too. It's been a long time since I heard the name Duncan, and it's nice to see some of us survived.

But that being said, I think things are deeper here than a conversation can fix. Her worldview has irrevocably changed, and isn't tied into the same things that once drew you together. For lack of a better term, the most important thing in her life back then, I'm guessing, was her BDSM sexuality. You were the best byproduct of that.

But now her faith is the most important thing. And it will probably stay that way for a while, if not forever. And if she's devout or evangelical, i don't think she's going to be able to dedicate herself to the carnal to the level you're going to want/need her to. I think there is a level of decadency and deviation that is important to accept for a lot of us to have the kind of BDSM relationships and behaviors you talked about that are uncompatable with a traditional marriage.

I've had the same problem froma different angle (children), and I haven't found a solution. I guess I decided the life i had was worth not having the life i wanted. I don't know if that's a good answer, but it's the only one i have.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/23/2005 2:01:57 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
BDSM itself isn't sinful. You have your wife, and to meld the two together is a wonderful thing. Demon and I are commited Christians, so maybe we are biased!*w*(and yes, we always get asked about the names, but if people don't understand irony, thats their loss - yup - even Jesus has a sense of humour!)

There are many BDSM Christian groups out their, just do a search on google. As for your wife, It would be good if you can try to communicate with her about why BDSM isn't important to her like it was before. Just because she is now a Christian, may not be the only reason why her desire for BDSM has declined.

Please feel free to mail me on the other side of CM if you want or have any questions. I will respond as best I can.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to davezzo)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/23/2005 4:59:46 PM   
fillepink


Posts: 124
Status: offline 		i saw your post and something inside me was so sad. i have NEVER told any priest about BDSM (depending on the priest's age, i might have to try and explain it first; o i think i'd die of embarrassment). My "dodge" so far has been i've not really had any experience -- and the Church has evidentially gotten out of the "thought police" business. (i'm not sure; i was gone for 30 years; i reconciled with the Church and found D/s at approximately the same time; who says God has no sense of humor?) But i hope someday, there will be a Man..a Dom..and the question will no longer be academic...and i'm unsettled in my mind as to what i'd say or do in that event.

now that i have wrung my hands, let me try to help. the Church i left....and that's all i know..the Catholic Church of the 1970's...seemed cruel to women and horribly antisexual. yet even in that environment, the pastors seemed willing to support marriages with the concept that married people could have fun with sex (no birth control, but fun). i do remember homilies about the "gift" God gave Adam and Eve of sex; that with all the suffering it would bring (mostly Eve's naturally) it was also meant to bring them joy.

i am sure most clergy agree; married people may have fun with sex...but many might be shocked and feel hard-pressed to "approve" of certain BDSM activities like bondage. and the problem is compounded by the fact that you never know which clergyman will hold it together till you have revealed something of yourselves.

if your wife neglects your sexual needs...and those were clear before marriage ...she cannot simply say "i found God". God was never gone. you and she should seek medical attention first, i think. a physical; get some blood work done, have her meds checked for sexual side effects, etc...loss of libido is a loss of quality of life and can often be reversed. but at least here in the usa, a woman's loss of libido isn't treated seriously most of the time unless she advocates for better care.

if there is no medical basis for her changing sexual desires, i'd sit with her and tell her you also have spiritual needs, and that you feel a different church might be better for the two of you as a couple..then go to a Unitarian service. unless you are an athetist or she has built a social life around her new church, she should be willing to search with you for a church that welcomes both of you.

and yes..i think you do need to share with her your grief and confusion. but in any marriage it is possible for one person to change in such a way as to rock the foundations of the marriage. perhaps counseling (with a BDSM friendly therapist) might be helpful; it would at least provide a safe place to discuss how you feel.

i know you'd never leave her if she were paralyzed and could not play; i know you took your vows seriously; and both of you promised one another that you'd feel honored...and now you may feel you've been left behind as the "deviant" while she ascends to piety; but that's not true.. and any clergyman who says you are less worthy; or your sexual needs are not important, is not serving the both of you or the Lord (in my humble opinion).

did not mean to offend anyone; i meant to help to original writer and share a bit of my own dilemma...please don't hollar at me...fillepink




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by fillepink -- 6/23/2005 5:02:17 PM >

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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/23/2005 8:04:56 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

please don't hollar at me...fillepink


Oh, darn. Now I have nothing to say.



Now seriously, I think your suggestion for counselling and possibly a medical checkup are good ideas. But I think he may first need to sit down and talk with his wife.

Is she feeling that BDSM is sinful? If so, why?
Is she feeling a loss of libido? If so, is she comfortable with that?
How does she feel about their past play? And of his current desires?
Does she feel that BDSM is a source of difficulty between them? IF so, does she think that couples counselling might help?

I am not sure that changing churches will help, or even if it is an option. My sense (and this may be really wrong) is that charismatics tend to be quite conservative in their religious beliefs. I am not sure that someone who is an enthusiatic member of a charismatic church would feel at home with the Unitarians.

(in reply to fillepink)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/23/2005 8:44:17 PM   
davezzo


Posts: 7
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks, all, for your thoughtful responses. Themes we all know are critical for the lifestyle: Communications, talk to her (of course!); make sure something else is not sapping her of her desires -- physical disease or vanilla stress (we have a chronically sick child that absorbs much of our time). The suggestion I've taken most to heart is talking to a BDSM-friendly therapist, if I can find one. There used to be lists of such floating around the web -- can anyone point me to a good one now?

whiporee, hello to you -- what name did you use there (maybe we've talked before!)? Sir Duncan E and our honeymoon. He gave us the keys to the ranch (recall he lived in a townhouse next to the Presidio and had a ranch in Sonomo) and then came up himself, along with Amy and 4 others from the scene in those days (we're talking about 12 years ago). We had a wonderful time, Duncan was a gracious host, and we missed him dearly when he died (he used to say my wife looked like Audrey Hepburn -- she does!).

To all, I did follow my wife to church and received Christ (I'm geniunely born again) so, even from within my own fight of faith I struggle to understand if BDSM is sin, sexual immorality. I struggle now to understand if my worship of the Female is some kind of idolatry as it appears to be a kind of deflected worship of God Himself. But on the flip side, the head of the SM family I used to belong to (before my wife) used to say "God is the ultimate Dominate" -- they were religious before I was and it was a household of justice, delight, fun and fulfilment. So on this I myself am confused as to what is right and I therefore hesitate to push my wife. Yet the lifelong cravings and attitudes remain as strong as ever -- stronger, perhaps, as I've had to repress them (which never works).

Use of a pro can be a temporary crutch, and I know a wonderful one who likes to see me -- but even this I hesitate to tell my wife. Will she see me as hopelessly lost in sin? Would I be?

So where do I go from here. The suggestion of a BDSM-friendly counselor seems best. I will give that a try.

(in reply to onceburned)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/23/2005 9:09:14 PM   
AnnaB


Posts: 12
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline 		dear davezoo,

I don't know if anyone has ever suggested you into this, but I found a site: www.elisesutton.com, where Elise is also a Christian (I think a devout one) and also a BDSM and she had struggled as well - she might be able to give you some clear opinion on this. May be you can ask her about it. She is some kind of Psycholog as well.

Anna

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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/24/2005 5:18:03 AM   
diaperedbaby


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		I think filliepink is right on target with this.
Certainly is a interesting topic that affects many.
As mention, the denomination of the church attended seems to determine whether people feel guilty about it.
Simple thoughts for my simple mind?
Regardless of the denomination, I have never seen anything in the Bible that says it is bad, short of activity away from ones wife.

(in reply to AnnaB)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/24/2005 5:24:07 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

I struggle now to understand if my worship of the Female is some kind of idolatry as it appears to be a kind of deflected worship of God Himself. But on the flip side, the head of the SM family I used to belong to (before my wife) used to say "God is the ultimate Dominate" -- they were religious before I was and it was a household of justice, delight, fun and fulfilment.


In our household, God is the ultimate 'Dominant'. That doesn't stop me from idolising and being protected and guided by Demon however. Look at it this way - God created Man - and angels. Man has been expected to hear from God via angelic pressence at times. And angels worship and obey God and they were created to serve Man. God created those that are submissive, and those that are Dominant. You and your wife are an important part of His works.

Bdsm isn't a sin, and it's beauty is a blessing, something to enhance your life and your wifes. Stepping beyond your marriage behind her back would be a greater thing to be concerned about, than the acts of BDSM itself.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to davezzo)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/24/2005 5:57:40 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

The suggestion I've taken most to heart is talking to a BDSM-friendly therapist, if I can find one. There used to be lists of such floating around the web -- can anyone point me to a good one now?


Click
Kink Aware Professionals

Peace and Love

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 6/24/2005 5:58:18 AM >

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to davezzo)
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RE: Christianity and Ds BDSM - 6/26/2005 8:32:23 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		You will find that born again Christian and Catholics have the most mud to sling for they have a forest in their eyes and find the splinter in someone elses.
I am a born again Christian and know i am accountable in the end to only One. Not my desires, not my kink, not my sexuality, not my Dom, but to God.
He has given His redemption, freely offered, but has given us free will to do as we wish, knowng we are accountable.

Yes the Bible says nothing about BDSM, but it does say, that what happens in the marriage bed is between man and wife, and remains undefiled.
When i told my mom i liked mild bondage.... mind you, i fear my mom, she told me is was "nasty and cruel"....my response? For YOU (i was thinking, you abusive bitch) it is, for me and Mine, no. You see, mom thinks nothing about verbally humiliating and beating a child but thinks it cruel and nasty for a couple to do as they wish sexually behind private doors.

The bigotry is beyond me.

I feel D/s is Scriptural. As a woman submits to her husband, a husband has the responsiblity to care for the woman as God does the Church. (Now this in itself is a statement with differnt interpretations, depending on what each's views are on the Church, but remember it is God who said it...not I.)
Isaac cared for Rebekkah, his slave wife, and the story is truly beautiful. Was there BDSM? Who knows, itis NOT our business, but their's...hehehehe...God knows tho.

Thank you Dark~Angel for the great insight you give on this topic.

~~shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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