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calling all lawyers... - 7/23/2007 5:57:32 PM

KingofTrio

Posts: 37
Joined: 12/10/2004
Status: offline

I have a question to any and all lawyers, attorneys, paralegals and similarly qualified persons.

Since I have been told that a Master/slave contract is simply proof of (illegal) intent, I have been thinking about other ways to describe/enforce a power exchange dynamic that would be legal in our present day society. I know full well you can't make anyone do anything, but let's look at protecting a slave owner from the complete destruction one little submissive with a vengeance could wreak, rightfully or not.

This is along the lines of "I was married once and she took everything, with the full help of the police, judges and counselors", plus add in a dose of "I am now in a lifestyle which is pretty much illegal (slaveowner), we practice things which are illegal (endorphin related battery) and even though I trust my slave with my life, I wish to protect myself from other slave type individuals whom I may meet in the future."

Now, let's say I wish to own a female slave as fully as the law will allow. I presume that I can't label her as such, but can I hire a personal assistant? Can I order her around, have her do things for me, and this is legal, yes? In this case, I can set up a retirement account for her, manage her money, put money in an IRA, keep her under my roof without need of a marriage certificate and with no danger of "common law marriage" laws, correct?

Now, let's take her clothes off. How to do this within the legal framework? Can she sign a contract of surragacy, where she is having a child that will be mine? Can a personal assistant also be a surragate?

I am curious about these things for many reasons. Mostly I enjoy how labels change everyones ideas about things. I was recently denied membership in a "Christian" yahoo group about domestic discipline, because they don't get down with BDSM, even though two sentences later they were saying that they believed a man should run the home and a wife should be obedient in all things. Granted, they don't swing a flogger, but the ideology is the exact same as M/s. Anyway, before I get completley off track, if anyone has a learned opinion relating these sorts of situations, knows anyone who uses similar strategies, or has a better idea, please post and tell us about it.

Thanks

King

Post #: 1

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/23/2007 6:19:00 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Dude, you're not headed anywhere good...

1. There's no such thing as a legally enforceable slave contract, by any name.

2. Hire your slave and you'd be subject to prosecution under any applicable state and federal employment law, including sexual harrassment. Any "arrangement" you may have in writing could be used to prosecute you, civilly or criminally.

3. No "contract" can protect you from other state laws, such as common law marriage statutes.

4. The best that any "contract" can do is to provide evidence of consent if you were to be prosecuted for engaging in BDSM activities that may violate your state law, though even consent is not always a defense.

I'm not an attorney, but I have a passing knowledge in some of these issues.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to KingofTrio)

Post #: 2

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/23/2007 6:21:13 PM

CelticPrince

Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline

King,

you got out with your shorts as did I but look not back.

A judge can do any thing they wanrt with a written agreement, especially when it is renounced by a sobbing lilone who swore it was under duress.

Just choose well and use trust!

CP

(in reply to KingofTrio)

Post #: 3

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/23/2007 7:32:54 PM

severin37

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline

dude just have a trusting relationship

if you are going to have a relationship where you are worried about lawerys and judges then get the fuck out

(in reply to CelticPrince)

Post #: 4

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 7:21:10 AM

MidMichCowboy

Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline

I went through a divorce where her lawyer brought up some things about our relationship in a deposition. I answered truthfully. Then I had my lawyer subpoena people who knew of our relationship (including her friends to whom she had bragged about it) and a couple guys who had previously been in a relationship with her. It died out on its own and never made it to the court. Don’t keep it completely hidden. Best advice I can give.

_____________________________

I want to capture your mind, your spirit, your soul, your body, your devotion and your love. Then, will I give you my heart.

(in reply to severin37)

Post #: 5

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 8:00:51 AM

EclipseAbove

Posts: 220
Joined: 8/11/2005
Status: offline

I'm not a lawyer, but I married to one. So, this isn't legal advice but rather an informed opinion. I agree with everyone that has replied so far. I would add that since you are talking about consensual slavery, there is nothing to enforce. Either the person gives consent, or they don't. And they can choose not to consent at any time, for any reason including no reason at all. And if you have legally joined your property through marriage, there is plenty they can take (depending on the state) when they decide to leave. You are barking up the wrong tree with trying to "enforce" anything.

(in reply to MidMichCowboy)

Post #: 6

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 8:30:48 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

question - do you really want your private life out in the open and full view in any court of law?

sad to say, there aren't any legal contracts for you hide behind to enforce that you legally own a person and that this person is bound to said contract for x-amount of time. the way i see it (from a certified paralegal's pov), you are opening yourself up to a can of worms in what you're seeking.

you question common marriage - if the woman can establish that she has been living under your roof for x-amount of years as your wife (depending where you live), common marriage laws will apply and so will division of property if you two buy anything together. surragacy contract would only apply to couples and birth mother having their baby somthing which doesn't apply in your case. if she has a child and states you're the father, she can sue you for child support.

follow the advice of those who posted before me

_____________________________

...2011 - year of the fabulous rock star life ...and i do it so well...

...announcing Mr. & Mrs. British Petrol ...yeah, marrying into oil is slick business...

(in reply to EclipseAbove)

Post #: 7

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 9:22:54 AM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear KingofTrio, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I highly recommend looking into your local state/commonwealth law and how the US Federal Courts override local state/commonwealth laws. In addition to state/commonwealth law you also need to look at municiple/county/city laws. So, three major layers of law, which at times play sea-saw with each other and who has the 'will' to make life miserable and all the loop holes that exist to 'getcha' if they want to 'getcha.'

You are also asking questions about law that touches on business/contract law and also questions concerning 'family/dependant' law. In addition, asking about financial issues can go in a split here, as you're asking as 'family' and or 'guardian' as well as 'business' financial laws.

Really does depend on each state and or commonwealth's views on jurisprudence as to what you can and or cannot do. Multiple layers of questions can often be answered within your local library, where the public can go and research law. Law University Libraries are often well stocked of all states, commonwealth and US Federal Law; added by the fact you have legal librarians that are wonderful help in narrowing your search and or research. The other avenues are looking at the law library the court houses have in your jurisdiction. Because laws vary from state/commonwealth and or territories to state/commonwealth and or territories; you need to do the research for what applies to you directly.

Indenture is the longest known form of contracted services for payment of debt. In the times of Colonial America; those who could not afford the travel to the Americas often entered into a binding contract, to which the agreement was services, e.g. labor, in exchange for the cost of coming to the colonial state/commonwealth. It was a form of paying back the loan. If it still is seen as a binding contract, remains up to your area's US Federal laws, state/commonwealth law and municiple/county/city laws.

As far as setting up provisions, in connection to business/job like settings; I'm sure business and contract law will answer as to domestic servant contracts, the pay of social security and other taxes and fees. Department of Labor and Social Security Administration should also provide assistance in addressing this aspect and or at least help you find the path to your answers.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to KingofTrio)

Post #: 8

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 10:38:47 AM

windchymes

Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

Perhaps the OP needs a therapist more than he needs a lawyer?

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 9

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 10:49:35 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Dude, you're not headed anywhere good...

1. There's no such thing as a legally enforceable slave contract, by any name.

2. Hire your slave and you'd be subject to prosecution under any applicable state and federal employment law, including sexual harrassment. Any "arrangement" you may have in writing could be used to prosecute you, civilly or criminally.

3. No "contract" can protect you from other state laws, such as common law marriage statutes.

4. The best that any "contract" can do is to provide evidence of consent if you were to be prosecuted for engaging in BDSM activities that may violate your state law, though even consent is not always a defense.

I'm not an attorney, but I have a passing knowledge in some of these issues.

John

Seriously. Federal charges of forced labor and trafficking isn't a pleasant charge to be up against. Ask this guy:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_835632/mpage_1/key_gmyourgod/tm.htm#900627
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Mar05/0,4670,SampMonTrial,00.html
http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0712,taormino,76097,24.html
http://news.com.com/2100-1030_3-6185920.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Marcus

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 10

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 11:05:39 AM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

Keep in mind in divorces the woman does not automatically get everything, I know this from experience and being a business owner. My ex-husband tried to take everything and I had to fight to keep my business and half of what I was entitled too. Secondly not all M/s relationships are Master/femslave. Just some small points and back to your post.

You should be careful about legalities sometimes they can cause you more hurt than gain. Get yourself into a relationship with someone that you can trust and work hard at keeping the relationship good. You want to make it legal? Get married. Also make sure she stays employed even if part-time, this is where a lot of men end up paying big bucks in alimony. If she isn't working then you are responsible for her as the state does not want her on welfare if your marriage ends, so look out for yourself make sure she has a job.

Good luck,
~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to KingofTrio)

Post #: 11

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 11:18:22 AM

LetUsGoThen

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/18/2007
Status: offline

I will mention as someone schooled in HR law, that (as someone else pointed out) hiring your slave could have tremendouly disasterous consequences. I second whoever mentioned that consensual is just that. When she wants to walk, she walks. Hopefully, your relationship stayed away from abuse and remained SSC. Slave contracts, fun as they might be are just fun. Although they might...maybe and doubtful...imply consent, consent can be retracted at anytime, hence the slave contract just being fun. Also, the slave contract isn't going to make the Master look especially sane to a vanilla jury.

I think the most important component of a TPE relationship is trust. Take care of her; treat her right. Own her heart and you own her.

Good luck...remember-SS and most of all, C

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 12

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 3:31:16 PM

KingofTrio

Posts: 37
Joined: 12/10/2004
Status: offline

Thanks for all the replies.

I wish to reiterate that I am very happy with and trusting of my slave, this post was strictly concerned with exploring whether there was a legal way of operating within wiitwd that could withstand a dishonest claim by a potential future prospect.

The suggestion that the original poster perhaps needed therapy was a hoot. Let some poor shmuck ask about possibly protecting himself from losing everything to a dishonest person and he must need therapy. Shows where we are in this society.

Any other idea beyond what has been posted are welcome.

King

(in reply to LetUsGoThen)

Post #: 13

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 4:56:02 PM

blmtrsne

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline

My husband/slave wants to feel owned as much as possible. From my point of view, there is no need for control, but he came up with some interesting papers:
- he signed a paper that when we married, I brought in a certain capital, and should we devorse, that would mean that I can take that money first out of our common share: it was mine before gettting together.
- he signed a paper he owns me money.
- he signed a model-contract: I have the right to sell or publish pictures of him in any way.
- he wrote me a letter telling me about his deviant behaviour, asking me to forgive him, so that I can say I never was interested in the lifestyle.
- he let me take some pictures in a BDSM-context
- he gave me blanco signed papers
- I have my own account, and the power to take money out of our common account.

Is this a good way to act or a problem anyway ?

_____________________________

-- Owner of slrn733561 --

(in reply to KingofTrio)

Post #: 14

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 5:06:33 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blmtrsne

Is this a good way to act or a problem anyway ?

"Good" is a relative term.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to blmtrsne)

Post #: 15

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 5:28:39 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

I think it admirable that you want to create a retirement fund for her. However please be aware that you cannot give her more than $11,000 yearly without violating the IRS gift tax laws. So be prepared to pay major penalties to the IRS if you give her more than the legal amount.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 16

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 6:03:37 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MidMichCowboy

I went through a divorce where her lawyer brought up some things about our relationship in a deposition. I answered truthfully. Then I had my lawyer subpoena people who knew of our relationship (including her friends to whom she had bragged about it) and a couple guys who had previously been in a relationship with her. It died out on its own and never made it to the court. Don’t keep it completely hidden. Best advice I can give.

I am shocked your attorney let you answer.

I said maybe 4 sentences my entire divorce. The best one was to ask the table (me, her, her attorney, my attorney) why she wanted me to pay her lawyer fees since my parents gave her money to pay for her attorney.

She dropped asking for it, according to my attorney, that meant she could never ask for it in the future. I was not the litigious one, and now she had to pay for any peurile legal nonsense she wanted to engage in.

Sinergy

p.s. My lawyer loved the hell out of me, as was pointed out in some movie, telling your attorney things limits his/her/its options. In the example I gave, that was in response to my attorney asking me if I was "ok with the agreement worked out."

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to MidMichCowboy)

Post #: 17

RE: calling all lawyers... - 7/24/2007 6:23:23 PM

daddyscherry

Posts: 85
Joined: 7/10/2007
From: Daddy's Tower, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blmtrsne

My husband/slave wants to feel owned as much as possible. From my point of view, there is no need for control, but he came up with some interesting papers:

- he signed a model-contract: I have the right to sell or publish pictures of him in any way.
- he let me take some pictures in a BDSM-context

Please be aware if you are not already, that EACH time you would want to use pictures, EACH set or day of photo taking NEEDS a seperate MODEL RELEASE and a release by itself is NOT enough.

You also NEED to have ID-2 forms in the case of adult oriented materials, preferably with him holding them up to his face and have a picture of this as well as copies of these documents.

EACH thing, photoset or whatever has to have its own file with these documents in them.

Also, whoever you sell these pics to will need copies of all of this information as well.

Also, please be aware of where you might sell these things, as each state, sometimes city and county has their own guidelines of what constitutes obscene material (some places, forbid anything with BDSM content entirely)

There is the 2257 law as well as other laws governing adult oriented material and above are the rules to follow so that you don't have the Men in Black breathing down your neck.

_____________________________

~cherry
a.k.a. charismagirrl

For today i won't say but...
For today i won't say just....
For today i will simply obey...
For always i will be your imperfect slave.

(in reply to blmtrsne)

Post #: 18

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