How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy?

How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 10:54:33 AM)
When a submissive man approaches me online or in real life and essentially the entire opening of our discussion/intro consists of his needs/wants, I get a sense he's just looking for someone to play a role in his fantasies. But how can we tell when a submissive is just having a misstep, and really he is NOT a pushy bottom, he's just not coming across that well? First, can femdoms agree that a submissive man to expect some context of kinkiness in his power exchange is not necessarily a bottom? If so, then how can he avoid being viewed as a man who just has his needs front of mind and is looking at femdoms as a way to get those needs met? Here are my suggestions for submissive men as ways to be sure their kinky needs are recognized but not seem like a bottom: * Don't talk about your fetishes as an opener with a dominant woman. Let her ask or inquire. * When you do talk about your fetishes, clarify that they are desired in the context of a relationship, or "when I know someone well" or "with the right connection" * Be clear about your expectations regarding how often, how much, but use real life experiences to demonstrate you understand the overall relationship. If you have never had a real life relationship, be honest and state that you are not sure how much/often you would desire it, because it will be based on the needs of both people * When talking about your fetish desires, try to relate them through experiences with dominant women where mutual pleasure was the goal, including how she enjoyed it and why. At the same time, do not use this as an opportunity to brag about past girlfriends, especially pros * And the MOST important and MOST overlooked one of all: Realize that you can uncover the potential for combatibility of kinks (and whether or not she will be a good match for you) by focussing on HER - what does she enjoy about femdom? What experiences make her frustrated as a femdom? What are her fetishes, if she has any? What would the ideal level of 'kink' be for her in a relationship? What non traditional things push her hot buttons? What are other suggestions femdoms have? What positive ways have subs approached them and projected their needs without seeming pushy? I am always shocked and surprised at how few questions I get about my wiring, my desires, how I got this way, what pushes my buttons, etc. A good sub will want to get into a femdom's head. Maybe this is too much of a proposition that seems like controlling, manipulative? I dunno.... Akasha

Wickad -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 11:18:53 AM)
Greetings, I would also suggest that the prospective submissive be upfront about his 'dating' style. If he is still casually talking to or playing with others that is all very well when you have just met. After a 'while' though this type of behaviour is not acceptable. There has to be a sense that both the Dominant and the submissive are commited to seeing where the relationship goes. Loyalty in a boy goes a long way. As well, in small local scenes it is really not acceptable to play the field in a very wonton sorta way. As a lot of Dominant women who are active in the public scene are friends with other active Dominant women, the submissive has to take into consideration that women have ego's as well. I don't poach my friends potential boys and certainly don't play with her cast offs. It might be in a submissive's best interest to be a bit more discreet about who and where he plays. Just some thoughts, Wickad

pixelslave -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 11:20:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I am always shocked and surprised at how few questions I get about my wiring, my desires, how I got this way, what pushes my buttons, etc. A good sub will want to get into a femdom's head. Maybe this is too much of a proposition that seems like controlling, manipulative? I dunno.... Personally, the part I've quoted above, seems second nature to me. How can I possibly please a woman if I don't have a clue what it is that she desires or pushes her buttons? The simple answer is that I ask! [:D] Back to the general topic though, I approach things from the view of interpersonal compatibility first. Do I like this woman as a person? If not, then it doesn't really matter does it? At least it doesn't to me. Until there's some kind of interpersonal relationship established that says to me there could be a mutual compatibility on other levels, exactly what my kinks and her kinks are doesn't really matter does it? Once that's established, I tend to follow her lead and wait until she opens the door; although depending on the kind of humor she likes, I may use jokes of some kind and a bit of innuendo about various things that at times have lead to discussions on various topics of interest to both of us. [;)] In my experience the way something is phrased or "couched" is quite important and makes a big difference in the way it is received. Expressing flexibility, yet acknowleging one's desires honestly is key. If a dominant isn't interested in my needs & desires as well as hers, then she's clearly not a woman I'd be interested in anyway. IMO, some desires are obviously long term and require a building up of trust before ever going there anyway, while others are more quickly reached. Yet, both need to be discussed openly at some point as the intensity increases before a person gets-in deeper than they would if it would be impossible for their desires and needs to be satisfied in a relationship with one another. [&:] Just a few of my thoughts on the subject... - pixel Collared to Majik

thetammyjo -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 11:46:08 AM)
Be honest with yourself about how much activities and types of interaction mean to you. How necessary? How often? If you find you need something like bondage or rubber or a dildo the majority of the day, reflect on what is truly driving you in kink. What investment do you have in being seen as a submissive? Emotional? Physical? Philosophical? Kink? Spiritual? etc Then find someone with the same or similar desires on a majority of those with a neutral reaction to a minority of them. Learn that there will never be a perfect match but also learn you are too valuable as a human being to be with someone whom you overlap very little with in terms of these interests. Don't make promises you cannot keep and do not think you can get her to enjoy things over time. You wouldn't like it if she played that game with you so don't try and play it with her. Realize that you do not need to be submissive 24/7. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone who wants to submit during sex or on weekends or only when there is a new moon. Someone tells you that you aren't real because of these, consider that valuable information about their compatibility with you. Why take it any more personally than that? Realize there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a bottom either. There are folks out here who are only tops (Fox is one of them when he's in that mood) so if that's ok, why isn't it only for you? Isn't it better to be honest with yourself about what interests you in kink than to constantly set yourself up for disappointment? Never assume that what you mean by a word is what someone else means by a word. Catching phrases and single words are only short hand, communication only works if you get beyond those. If you answer all these questions you'll be better aware of yourself. You need that self-awareness before you can communicate it with others.

littlesarbonn -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 12:58:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I am always shocked and surprised at how few questions I get about my wiring, my desires, how I got this way, what pushes my buttons, etc. A good sub will want to get into a femdom's head. Maybe this is too much of a proposition that seems like controlling, manipulative? I dunno.... Personally, I think it has a lot more to do with a submissive being scared to death of pushing away the one person that has indicated an interest. I don't think people really understand that because when you deal with the number ratio, a submissive male is way down on the totem pole of having statistical odds of being successful. First, just getting someone interested is a herculean task. Then you have to continue to keep that person interested without totally screwing up by indicating you like this or that, something that might be the straw that keeps you from being successful. And the biggie for me: Submissive males (even though women won't admit this, but I TRULY believe this) are somewhat expected to have to be thankful for WHATEVER they can find because a woman has so many opportunities and choices, and the potential submissive guy is just one of the many who has to somehow break through the chaff to be the one that interests her. I can't tell you how many times a woman has gone off on me because I indicated after a certain amount of time that I didn't think she was right for me. No woman is ever going to admit it because there's this illusion that has to maintain itself, but they get REALLY upset at me when I say, "I'm sorry, but that's just not for me. I was looking for something a little closer to what I actually put in my profile." We always hear about the guys that get rude after they've been turned down, but I've been the recipient of this as well; people tend to not believe it actually happens because there's this expectation I get even from other guys that's essentially "You should be glad to get whatever you can get because your odds are so dismal." It's a lot like the music industry stating that their numbers are dwindling because people must be downloading the music for free. The idea that the music sucks is never a variable, nor is the idea that people don't buy CDs because there's nothing all that great to buy when it comes to that area. I know that when I post here on collarme, I often have submissive guys and dominant women writing to me, indicating that I must be in error because I don't respond with the norm as a response. Had someone in a recent thread tell me I was obviously wrong about an opinion I had. I guess the other person's opinion was better than mine? So, I'm not surprised that when someone actually gets you interested that they then become very guarded in what they say next. It's a path dependent model that has lots and lots of closing functions and a difficult process to get to an actual payoff. So, no, I'm not surprised.

skareamoos -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 1:16:12 PM)
Good afternoon Double A ... I have been reading your recent posts, and regret my extreme age, because this lust-crazed degenerate is synchronous with much of what you say, but clearly is too old to be of interest. But as to a sub ASKING ..... how on earth can he/she tell if the askee is the right one without so doing. I (when in bottom mode ... a condition that more accurately describes my own peculiar lusts ...) would always be up front in a very GENERAL way about what torments I was eager, willing, or sulkily (sp?) open to endure, and any suchj answer would be utterly negotiable. (No specific details please ... surprise, even though painful, can be exhilerating. So let them ask ... but never demand.

PairOfDimes -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 5:59:21 PM)
What's wrong with bottoms? Most submissives I've known are submissive bottoms--that is, they like to obey requests, and they like to receive sensations. As for presenting one's desires--well, presumably, submissives and bottoms (and dominants and tops, for that matter) do this because they find something fulfilling, and it's logical that one would, in evaluating a prospective partner, want to ascertain whether that prospective partner was willing to do the things one found fulfilling. I don't see anything wrong with a submissive/bottom/whatever presenting what he or she wants out of the relationship early and clearly, whether that's emotional intimacy, a sense of being pleasing and useful, or getting tied up and beaten regularly. Indeed, I'd like more of those conversations!

jflynn -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 6:46:19 PM)
Tis good for subs to be up front about such things.. but the primary thing to keep in mind, is that you do can do it in a non-creepy way. There's nothing wrong with bouncing your kinks quirks off someone, so long as they would be comfy with that. But don't go whining online (or in person!) to a potential playmate. Being clear is good, but do it when there is comfort. And bail when necessary. ;)

MisPandora -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 8:31:51 PM)
He can share his thoughts/desires/whathaveyou when I open the floor to them (which is quite often, especially when I'm learning him.) After he's been taken on in my service, I expect transparency, in that he is compelled to share with me what's on his mind in a respectful fashion. (It beats the hell out of my having to keep the crystal ball in service all the time.) That't not topping from the bottom or driving the bus, but it is being a good communicator and an active participant in a relationship.

MisPandora -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 8:34:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PairOfDimes What's wrong with bottoms? Most submissives I've known are submissive bottoms--that is, they like to obey requests, and they like to receive sensations. As for presenting one's desires--well, presumably, submissives and bottoms (and dominants and tops, for that matter) do this because they find something fulfilling, and it's logical that one would, in evaluating a prospective partner, want to ascertain whether that prospective partner was willing to do the things one found fulfilling. I don't see anything wrong with a submissive/bottom/whatever presenting what he or she wants out of the relationship early and clearly, whether that's emotional intimacy, a sense of being pleasing and useful, or getting tied up and beaten regularly. Indeed, I'd like more of those conversations! Actually for pure definition, a bottom is generally someone who is in it for conditionally receiving the sensations and gratification, but not usually "obedient" as we would expect a submissive to be.

SexyRed -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 8:40:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PairOfDimes What's wrong with bottoms? Most submissives I've known are submissive bottoms--that is, they like to obey requests, and they like to receive sensations. As for presenting one's desires--well, presumably, submissives and bottoms (and dominants and tops, for that matter) do this because they find something fulfilling, and it's logical that one would, in evaluating a prospective partner, want to ascertain whether that prospective partner was willing to do the things one found fulfilling. I don't see anything wrong with a submissive/bottom/whatever presenting what he or she wants out of the relationship early and clearly, whether that's emotional intimacy, a sense of being pleasing and useful, or getting tied up and beaten regularly. Indeed, I'd like more of those conversations! I wish more Dom's wanted more of those questions. Very, very surprisingly, recently I have heard, in response to trying to have this kind of conversation and especially if we were in a scene, that when I state what I want, I am..."topping from below" and "not submissive". So I am very curious as to what others say, how they say it, etc. I will say that I find it shocking that a guy would be upset when a woman tells him what gets her off. I mean, isn't that a clue that most men want?

DiurnalVampire -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 8:53:27 PM)
Personally, I prefer a submissive wait until I ask to start giving me their laundry list of interests. Obviously, if there is going to be some sort of relationship, I am going to want to know what interests them as they do me. However, I think that they should initially be far more concerned with finding out what I would be looking for before we delve into what they are. My reasoning being, as the Dominant, my interests and desires are going to come first. Those that we share are going to get more attention than any that we do not. So, finding out what I like means a submissive now has a framework to introduce their own fetishes and desires. Honestly, though, I dont see any of the discussions of likes and dislikes to be topping from the bottom. Telling me somehting MUST happen in order for us to be together is. Simply sharing information really isnt, as long as its kept that way. Now, pushing for their activities over my own when we are in a real life situation, or turing every conversation we have back to their interests instead of mine or mutual ones are to me topping from the bottom. EVen pushing for online playtime, their way, usually turns me off fast. But thats just me. I want to know what those submissives I am interested in like or want. However that doesnt outweigh what I like or want. AS long as we can remember that things are usually just fine. DV

bignipples2share -> RE: How can a sub share his needs/desires and not be labeled a "bottom" or needy? (7/26/2007 10:42:41 PM)
I prefer looking at someones profile and see their list of loves, likes, etc. If there's something else that isn't on the list, I want to know about that relatively soon. Say if you love breath play till you pass out and want this to be a part of your life. If I were a person who would never be supplying this and a it's a big portion of what you crave, your needs are not going to be met. Now if I absolutely loved you wearing a fully scented sunk around your neck no matter where you went and this is something you absolutely would not do, yet I really really wanted this. We aren't meant for each other. Why waste months trying to build a relationship when both of us will be unhappy with it in the end. I want to know if we're compatable before I want him in my head. ~Big

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