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Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 11:09:21 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		A tip of the hat to NorthernGent for the impetus to start this thread.
 
Do you think there are any truths? Is anything genuinely right, or wrong? Or is it all subject to our opinions?

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 11:16:37 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		       Great topic, Level.  I'll try to get back later, but for now let's go with;

Yes.  There are "Truths."  "Opinion" isn't the right word for the rest of your question though.  "Values" might be a better term, and there certainly are conflicts of those at pretty much every level of human interaction.

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 11:21:48 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		Depends if we're talking universal truths or personal ones. The latter unarguably exist, the former are much harder to prove.

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 11:23:33 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

A tip of the hat to NorthernGent for the impetus to start this thread.
 
Do you think there are any truths? Is anything genuinely right, or wrong? Or is it all subject to our opinions?


Pffft, that's an easy one!
The Far Right and Far Left are ***ALWAYS*** wrong!
I don't know why they hate each other so much, they're like two peas in a pod!
They should be fuckin' TWINS!
Ward "TONTO" Churchill and Dick "Duck!" Cheney are like brothers to us moderates.
Go ahead, try and argue against that!

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 11:27:55 AM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		There are definately truths.  I find very few care for such enough to pursue them very far, though.

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 11:32:35 AM   
feastie


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Status: offline 		Everyone's perception is their truth.  Whether or not it is the real truth is another matter.

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:27:20 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      Great topic, Level.  I'll try to get back later, but for now let's go with;

Yes.  There are "Truths."  "Opinion" isn't the right word for the rest of your question though.  "Values" might be a better term, and there certainly are conflicts of those at pretty much every level of human interaction.


But is there any such thing as right and wrong? I know people can debate them, and that much of it is a matter of what values are placed on a subject, but.....even if they're rare, then they do exist.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:29:54 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Depends if we're talking universal truths or personal ones. The latter unarguably exist, the former are much harder to prove.


Yeah, yeah, you and those blasted canards.....

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:32:44 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

A tip of the hat to NorthernGent for the impetus to start this thread.
 
Do you think there are any truths? Is anything genuinely right, or wrong? Or is it all subject to our opinions?


Pffft, that's an easy one!
The Far Right and Far Left are ***ALWAYS*** wrong!
I don't know why they hate each other so much, they're like two peas in a pod!
They should be fuckin' TWINS!
Ward "TONTO" Churchill and Dick "Duck!" Cheney are like brothers to us moderates.
Go ahead, try and argue against that!


A lot of truth there, popeye  I wouldn't necessarily say "always", but they sure sound alike in some ways, those twins.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:35:52 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

There are definately truths.  I find very few care for such enough to pursue them very far, though.


Why do you think so, CL?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:36:50 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Depends if we're talking universal truths or personal ones. The latter unarguably exist, the former are much harder to prove.


Yeah, yeah, you and those blasted canards.....


...yup, those damn pesky canards

.....on a less canard laden note, perhaps the only way to know if an action is right or wrong is by its consequences. Perhaps only hind sight can be truly 20/20....

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:37:26 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

Everyone's perception is their truth.  Whether or not it is the real truth is another matter.


Errr, true, feastie.  But..... are there any "real truths"? Rights or wrongs?

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:39:01 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		Obviously...I am right and those that disagree...Will be blocked and therefore wrong.

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:40:26 PM   
NorthernGent


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If John Doe (whom you've never met, nor done anything to) walks up to you, pulls out a gun, and shoots you in the head, how can you argue that it's anything other than wrong? Thus making it right, to not do so.

Level, taking your comment from the praying thread i.e. the above:

It could be argued that war is man's natural state, thus making the shooting an act of nature/inbuilt human mechanism, rather than right or wrong. You may not agree, you may be able to put forward a good case to suggest man's natural state is the use of reason or something else entirely different to war, but your case isn't an absolute truth.

Truth and right/wrong is a dangerous concept as per the following illustration:

- Pol Pot wiped out bourgeios Cambodia in order to achieve equality.
- Nazi Germany attempted to subjugate the Slavs in a racial war.
- Stalin used force, coercion and death squads to maintain control.
- The current US and British governments are killing and displacing people in the name of Liberal Western democracy.

There are blatantly different scales of killing involved, here, but the above situations share one fundamental characteristic. The proponents believe/d they have the one true answer and they're prepared to kill for it. Whether that be liberal democracy, communism, or the Nazi's romantic conservatism. Where people believe they know the truth/are righteous, then nothing is out of bounds because the ends/truth will always justify the means. This explains the religious strife and wars of today, the middle ages and beyond. The leaders, followers and those that turn a blind eye believe their value system is the truth, and this justifies the killing (in their minds).

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:41:22 PM   
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Status: offline 		I wonder if I should unblock DG..... he might have some valuable insights on this...... naaaaa.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:42:23 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		It is all a concept. When a lion eats a llama alive is it wrong. You would think it is wrong from the llama's perspectrive, but if the lion does not eat he dies.

An aside, notice we tend to identify a predator in the male sense ? It is just as likely that said lion is a female, but that is not what comes to mind.

If I go downstairs into Dad's house and find you standing over his dead body with a knife, is it wrong for me to kill you ?

If you invade my country and wreak havoc and try to take over is it wrong to kill you ? (lately I am not so sure, but you get the point)

That is one of the main problems with the world today, people need to use their brains. In one breath they tell you not to take the law into your own hands, and then they admit that not only can't the cops be everywhere at the same time, they are not even obligated by any law whatsoever to protect and serve.

My morality is not based on prophecy nor law. But really I can't actually tell you on what it is based. It is not all that simple, and it is hard to explain.

I like what they call the golden rule, treat others as you want to be treated. I try to live by something like that.

I do not kill because life is important, it should only be taken from those who really deserve to lose it, and there ain't nobody around me like that right now.

I don't steal because I now realize that trust is worth more than all the riches in the world.

I don't rape because that is a terrible thing to do to someone.(I also do not have the desire to do it)

I don't cheat at cards because I like the game, and it should be played right, by all players.

I don't lie because I want my words to be respected. And to lie is to infer dominance to someone. I do not have to lie to anyone because I have done exactly what I want when I want since I was twelve. To lie is to say "I must prevaricate because I am somehow under your control". That I must please you. I will not do that.

I think major problems come to a society when morality is perverted, whether by governments, churches, or even one's Parents. If a person is truly enlightened, he will find his own morality, which will be more perfect than that which can be imposed upon him by any other.

I truly believe that and if you do, it moots all other arguments. That is not to say that any subject for discussion of what is the right thing or the wrong thing to do in a given situation are invalid. Sometimes there are very complex issues. Nobody can  know everything.

In a healthy normal discussion about whether or not something is moral, I believe people learn from each other, and grow. Whether you see a personal compromise in someone else, or if someone brings one of yours to light, you learn.

This is an exceedingly complex issue, but generally sane people, even with thei minor insanities, can help each other out a bit.


More later,,,, company.

T

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:43:15 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

There are definately truths.  I find very few care for such enough to pursue them very far, though.


Why do you think so, CL?


Something along the lines of Decarte's, "I think, therefore I am."

There's something.  I can perceive it- I must be something, even if I am a derived hypothetical of some mishappened creature.  If there is something, this something is truth.  Its nature, defining it, is also truth.  Things based off this definition of nature are also truth.

I say few pursue such things in observation of the utterly vulgar nature of common langauge and common thought.

PS-  I truly love this topic.  It is on the nature of beauty, to me.  I'd rant on and on, though I fear today's quite a busy one.  It's only ADD that has me distracted enough from work to post here at the moment.  Hopefully, I'll be able to conduct such rants in a date not too far from now.

Absolute truth.. the Truth, proper.. is something so incredibly few care for.  Such individuals seem to often be geniuses, though.. ..though I can't seem to reconcile the notion that few others would care for such things just yet.  It is my personal hope that most have not been able to experience Truth rather than found such in apathy.  Nonetheless, Math and Physics- two of the truthest human arts- seem to earn the contempt of many in mundane complexities that leads to the empirical reinforcement of such morbid observations.

I would hope to write on the nature of definition and apothem at some point in time; would such a thing be received in earnest?

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 7/29/2007 12:52:41 PM >

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:49:48 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent




If John Doe (whom you've never met, nor done anything to) walks up to you, pulls out a gun, and shoots you in the head, how can you argue that it's anything other than wrong? Thus making it right, to not do so.


Level, taking your comment from the praying thread i.e. the above:

It could be argued that war is man's natural state, thus making the shooting an act of nature/inbuilt human mechanism, rather than right or wrong. You may not agree, you may be able to put forward a good case to suggest man's natural state is the use of reason or something else entirely different to war, but your case isn't an absolute truth.

Truth and right/wrong is a dangerous concept as per the following illustration:

- Pol Pot wiped out bourgeios Cambodia in order to achieve equality.
- Nazi Germany attempted to subjugate the Slavs in a racial war.
- Stalin used force, coercion and death squads to maintain control.
- The current US and British governments are killing and displacing people in the name of Liberal Western democracy.

There are blatantly different scales of killing involved, here, but the above situations share one fundamental characteristic. The proponents believe/d they have the one true answer and they're prepared to kill for it. Whether that be liberal democracy, communism, or the Nazi's romantic conservatism. Where people believe they know the truth/are righteous, then nothing is out of bounds because the ends/truth will always justify the means. This explains the religious strife and wars of today, the middle ages and beyond. The leaders, followers and those that turn a blind eye believe their value system is the truth, and this justifies the killing (in their minds).


Gent, I'd say that truth/right/wrong can be a deadly concept, like a gun can be deadly, but it depends on the use. Just because that danger exists doesn't mean we should avoid the concepts in question. The examples you list, while the perpetrators believed in the rightness of their actions, were wrong. Does that make me as deadly as them, or just correct?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:52:58 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

If there is something, this something is truth.  Its nature, defining it, is also truth.  Things based off this definition of nature are also truth.



......why can't the observer of this 'truth' be flawed? i don't see how you get from something existing to that thing being truth....or even real. 'i think therefore i am' allows and arguably proves that something observes the universe. It doesn't guarantee that that something will have 20/20 vision.

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RE: Truth? Right and wrong? - 7/29/2007 12:55:38 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

It is all a concept. When a lion eats a llama alive is it wrong. You would think it is wrong from the llama's perspectrive, but if the lion does not eat he dies.

But that's the difference (or, a difference) between humans and animals. Hard to tell them apart, sometimes

If I go downstairs into Dad's house and find you standing over his dead body with a knife, is it wrong for me to kill you ?

If I didn't harm him, yes, in a sense, it is.

I don't lie because I want my words to be respected. And to lie is to infer dominance to someone. I do not have to lie to anyone because I have done exactly what I want when I want since I was twelve. To lie is to say "I must prevaricate because I am somehow under your control". That I must please you. I will not do that.

Very interesting concept, I've seen it before, and it has tremendous validity to it. Hard to pull off for most folks, though.

I think major problems come to a society when morality is perverted, whether by governments, churches, or even one's Parents. If a person is truly enlightened, he will find his own morality, which will be more perfect than that which can be imposed upon him by any other.

I truly believe that and if you do, it moots all other arguments. That is not to say that any subject for discussion of what is the right thing or the wrong thing to do in a given situation are invalid. Sometimes there are very complex issues. Nobody can  know everything.

In a healthy normal discussion about whether or not something is moral, I believe people learn from each other, and grow. Whether you see a personal compromise in someone else, or if someone brings one of yours to light, you learn.

This is an exceedingly complex issue, but generally sane people, even with thei minor insanities, can help each other out a bit.


More later,,,, company.

T

Good post.


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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