RE: Witchcraft and morality.

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Aswad -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/30/2007 6:06:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly A common theme you will find in most of them from Buddhism to Wicca is the idea of getting out of the universe what you put out into it. Yes. My point was that this is a simplification. A full analysis will reveal that (a) these do not posit that any mere human has full control of the causal cascade of their universe, (b) it is a generalization of the law of equal and opposite reactions, positing that while you affect your environment, your environment also affects you, and that there is a feedback path here, and (c) the reason for including it is usually to dissuade people from acting in a harmful manner, rather than to impart any real wisdom. quote: I am sure it could mean that if you do something bad to someone, it will come back and bite you in the ass. Depends on how bad, and whether you include an afterlife to "balance the score", because people can run up a pretty big tab without being called to account for it. And the religions that feature a "settling of accounts" in their afterlife, often tend to include it as a way to justify injustice in the world by saying that a person's soul deserves that the person suffers for no reason, e.g. the casteless in India. Abrahamic religions did not include a distinct notion of an afterlife until later on, and the Christian faith originally had a pretty different notion of it than we currently do. Much of what is included in Abrahamic religions' concepts of such a system of balances is either derived from Ma'at, or from Gnostic and Zoroastric sources. A fair bit of it indicates that transgressions on the physical plane are of little importance once the physical plane has been transcended. quote: Since revenge is a waste of time and energy, I prefer to just let the universe (or God, to me) handle that type of thing. Sure, it's a waste of time and energy. And leaving things to take their course is generally the best option, unless there is future crap to be prevented by it. But the universe does not necessarily have any sense of morality, and Gd most likely does not share ours. Nor is ours a timeless or constant thing. quote:* If you don't agree with what someone else believes, that does not make them nor their ideas ignorant. Such was not what I said, either, nor what I implied. I said that when someone doesn't understand what they believe in, that makes them ignorant. quote: The only ignorant mind is one that is closed to the possibility that someone besides themselves might be right about something. Ignorant has a specific meaning which is incongruent with the first part of this sentence. It is, however, quite congruent with the general sense of it, which I agree with. A closed mind will pretty much by definition remain ignorant.

QuietlySeeking -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/30/2007 6:22:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The only valid curse as I see it, is the type I have used in the past to good effect; that which brings forth the consequences of others' selfish mindsets all in one go, and even then only as defence, not as attack, and with the caveat that they might thereby see the error of their ways too. In this way, no new evil is created, because one relies on exhausting that which already exists, without incurring negative effects on oneself. The energy of hatred required for such a curse is directed at the self mindset of the target, not the person himself, and it being a religious aim to destroy self, the motivation is good. In Christian terms, it is hatred for the sin and not the sinner. LadyEllen, I seem to remember this being taught to me when I was pagan as "May your Karma balance." Remember, however, that by requesting it, you are opening yourself to the same balancing act!

Sinergy -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/30/2007 6:35:08 PM)
Whether or not one believes in magick or not, my own personal feelings about hatred, feelings of revenge, whatever, is that this establishes a connection to the one that a person wants to exact revenge on. This connection drains this person's psyche like a cancer. I tend to doubt the Universe has anything to do with it. The person is more than capable of punishing themself, dragging themselves down, being embroiled in their angst and hatred. One of the lessons from Wiccan traditions seems to make a lot of sense, the one of doing what one wilt as long as one harms noone else, or something like that. Makes a lot of sense, like treating other people the way one wants them to treat you. Works for me. Just me, etc. Sinergy

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/30/2007 6:47:34 PM)
Sinergy: "An it harm none, do as thou wilt." But here's the thing: is one expected to forever turn the cheek? If I am not allowed to do my own thing, in my own way, harming none except perhaps me and mine - well, I'm going to get pretty damned irritated. And payback will be a bitch for the person(s) getting in my way. It's no big deal. It happens. I'm not planning any lifelong grudges here. I'm just going to get some jungle law justice for myself. It's not going to permanently scar my psyche or anything.

Aswad -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/30/2007 6:49:36 PM)
Yeah, though it's not exclusively a Wiccan principle. For instance, as I recall, there's a story of a rabbi who was asked to explain his faith in the time the person asking the question could stand on one leg. The reply was supposedly something along the lines of "Do not do to others what is baneful unto yourself. The rest is commentary."

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/30/2007 7:59:02 PM)
Fast Reply: I spent years reading and studying many religions, including neo-paganism. In almost all of them there is a reward or punishment, for what you put out in life. It really comes down to cause and effect, of what that persons morals are. As to whether there is a universal right and wrong, if you look at some of the commonalities among various religions, I think you will see that there are some universal wrongs. It depends on what you consider virtue to be, which then defines your morals, which then allows you to create ethics. An example of two different religions, that have a similar "wrong" would be christianity: "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." and a phrase from about 2000 years prior to that "He who embraces violence, will have it turn upon him." There does seem to be some psychological benefits for an individual, when using some type of religion/magik, that is seen as positive. I would have to find it again, but the oxytocin levels in a person that prays for positive things, rises about the same as someone who is casting a beneficial spell, but the same rise is seen in a yogi that is meditating. Orion

nephandi -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/31/2007 3:11:18 AM)
Greetings Master quote: I spent years reading and studying many religions, including neo-paganism. In almost all of them there is a reward or punishment, for what you put out in life. It really comes down to cause and effect, of what that persons morals are. As to whether there is a universal right and wrong, if you look at some of the commonalities among various religions, I think you will see that there are some universal wrongs. It depends on what you consider virtue to be, which then defines your morals, which then allows you to create ethics. i have studies many religions and i have not found one universal wrong. What is seen as a sin in one is often a vitrue in another. While most religions have a basic be nice to others theme, not all do, and what is helpful vary grately. In edition human beings have then inteprated the religion and it is in reality very hard to see what the Devine might have wanted in the first place. quote: An example of two different religions, that have a similar "wrong" would be christianity: "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." and a phrase from about 2000 years prior to that "He who embraces violence, will have it turn upon him. i do not see this as Devine retribution i see it like cause and effect. if you are a warrior and run around looping pepole's heads of in a battle field, there are allot more chance somone will come and loop the head of you, it is basically as i see it just a warning. If you are a warrior you will life fast and die young and if you live peacefully you will live to see old age, not becoue of Devine punishment or reward, but but pure logic. quote: There does seem to be some psychological benefits for an individual, when using some type of religion/magik, that is seen as positive. I would have to find it again, but the oxytocin levels in a person that prays for positive things, rises about the same as someone who is casting a beneficial spell, but the same rise is seen in a yogi that is meditating. This is the same principle that give health benefits for petting an animal, being happy or for that matter having sex. The brain stimulate production of beneficial chemicals when we are happy, harmonious and relaxed. Where being angry or sad have the oposite effect. Yes in some way one is harming oneelf by doing curses as anger and stress harm our bodies, but that again have little to do whit Devine retribution. Though it offcourse can be the way the Devine manifest It's actions. May i wish you well Master.

ameenah -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/31/2007 4:41:16 AM)
wrong account

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/31/2007 4:43:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nephandi i have studies many religions and i have not found one universal wrong. What is seen as a sin in one is often a vitrue in another. While most religions have a basic be nice to others theme, not all do, and what is helpful vary grately. In edition human beings have then inteprated the religion and it is in reality very hard to see what the Devine might have wanted in the first place. I never used the word divine. I said there were some universal wrongs among some religions. Some of those have to do with murder, harming others, theft, just to name a few. I also never used the word all, so do not present an exception to disprove a rule. (just throwing out numbers, these are not exact) If 80% of the religions said murder was wrong, then I would see that as something universal among human religions quote: An example of two different religions, that have a similar "wrong" would be christianity: "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." and a phrase from about 2000 years prior to that "He who embraces violence, will have it turn upon him. i do not see this as Devine retribution i see it like cause and effect. if you are a warrior and run around looping pepole's heads of in a battle field, there are allot more chance somone will come and loop the head of you, it is basically as i see it just a warning. If you are a warrior you will life fast and die young and if you live peacefully you will live to see old age, not becoue of Devine punishment or reward, but but pure logic. Cause and effect has alot to do with laws, rules, and doctrine. I also never said anything about war. The two above statements are attributed to Jesus and Lao Tzu. Two men that were in different parts of the world, 2000 years apart, but they still came up with the same basic premise. It was an example, I am not about to dig out all my old research and present a paper here, which would be many pages long, that would show some of the common wrongs among many different religions. quote: There does seem to be some psychological benefits for an individual, when using some type of religion/magik, that is seen as positive. I would have to find it again, but the oxytocin levels in a person that prays for positive things, rises about the same as someone who is casting a beneficial spell, but the same rise is seen in a yogi that is meditating. This is the same principle that give health benefits for petting an animal, being happy or for that matter having sex. The brain stimulate production of beneficial chemicals when we are happy, harmonious and relaxed. Where being angry or sad have the oposite effect. Yes in some way one is harming oneelf by doing curses as anger and stress harm our bodies, but that again have little to do whit Devine retribution. Though it offcourse can be the way the Devine manifest It's actions. May i wish you well Master. Again I remind you that I did not use the word divine. The reading can add whatever they wish. When speaking about things like this, I purposefully leave certain words out, so that the discussion does not get stuck on whether someone believes in a divine entity or not. I have had these discussions with aethiest before, and the topic was enjoyable to discuss, because I put it in terms they could relate to. The above was an example of the benefits of positive output, and you are correct that negative output increases Cortisol. These positive and negative outputs would depend upon what the person considers virtue, morality and ethics, to be. Orion

Aswad -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/31/2007 9:15:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf If 80% of the religions said murder was wrong, then I would see that as something universal among human religions See, that's where stretching definition gets us in trouble, even apart from semantic drift. Some of us take universal to mean "a behavioral convention or pattern characteristic of all members of a particular culture or of all human beings", or "a proposition that asserts something of all members of a class", to use the dictionary definitions. Thus, the misunderstanding. One party was using a dictionary definition, another party was using their private definition. It is generally a good thing to be precise, given that there are several non-native speakers on the board, and some pedantics- like me- who tend to think what people intended is found by interpreting the words they said in their usual sense, organized according to the syntax of the language, and then transposed into the context that has been built up to that point. This process breaks down when there is a token in there that looks like a familiar word, but is a symbol for something else. quote: The two above statements are attributed to Jesus and Lao Tzu. And can be interpreted in very different ways. In the Viking faiths, dying by the sword was basically the only way to avoid Hel. Hence, I do not think we can say with any confidence that the premise was the same. Except, of course, that both involve an awareness of cause and effect. Anyway... feel free to mail the paper in question. It would be very interesting, since the absence of time-invariant culture-invariant points of reference in human morals is a thing that has been asserted as factual in the past, something I subscribe to the correctness of. quote: Again I remind you that I did not use the word divine. The reading can add whatever they wish. ~nod~ Which is basically what was said. Reality is reality, regardless of paradigm. Whether one views it as oxytocin being released as a physical representation of a spiritual event, or the other way around, or as only one of the two being part of reality, does not matter. If there really was a burning bush, an atheist would see it, though he might not be very inclined to ascribe Gd as a cause, whereas Moses would. The interpretation varies, but not what is being interpreted. quote:* I have had these discussions with aethiest before, and the topic was enjoyable to discuss, because I put it in terms they could relate to. ~nod~ I prefer a similar methodology, quite often. That bit is an absolute prerequisite to debating with most atheists, it seems, like with most other religious people, really: avoiding the taboos proscribed by their religion. For atheists, that seems to be the notion of debating something using words that are usually employed outside of their frame of reference without explicitly defining them, for instance. Other much vaguer terms and concepts are usually not taboo, and some form the core tenets of their faith. Seems we agree, in general.

philosophy -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/31/2007 9:15:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro "An it harm none, do as thou wilt." But here's the thing: is one expected to forever turn the cheek? If I am not allowed to do my own thing, in my own way, harming none except perhaps me and mine - well, I'm going to get pretty damned irritated. And payback will be a bitch for the person(s) getting in my way. It's no big deal. It happens. I'm not planning any lifelong grudges here. I'm just going to get some jungle law justice for myself. It's not going to permanently scar my psyche or anything. (my italics) .......your psyche may be safe, but arguably you predispose the universe against you. Take, for example, the US foreign policy. Esentially it's more or less the same as the behaviour you suggest....go by the rules until you don't want to, then god help people in the way. It may well work in the short term but it definitely narrows choices in the long term.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (7/31/2007 5:04:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy .......your psyche may be safe, but arguably you predispose the universe against you. Maybe I misstated my scenario. What I was trying to suggest was that someone was not observing the golden rule as respects me and mine and that I then have to set that straight so that I can go happily on my own way again. I am non-aggressive, but at some point someone else's actions against me might prompt a defensive response - and that action may seem aggressive because by it's nature I intend to stop all future conflict. At some point allowing someone else to get over on me is an act of submission and my allowing them to continually shit on me. They wouldn't do it except that I allow it and take no payback. Once I set matters right by making them see the actual cost of their activities maybe we can go back to a "live and let live" scenario. The reason I normally see myself as stainless in this regard is that I don't go looking for trouble, I look to be left alone and offer that same respect to others at all times - which is the heart of the ethic of reciprocity. I leave others alone and I want to be left alone in return. The ethic if reciprocity is fine until it is not observed by some party. When the ethic breaks down because someone doesn't mind their own business something has to happen to set the balance right again. Now sometimes the balance sets itself right and I don't have to do anything - a minor trespass that can be ignored, or someone learns it takes more to provoke me to action. Sometimes failing to respond to a situation looks like an invitation for another heaping of shit on one's head. Then I usually have to do something and inaction will not provide the same resolution - I have to act in retaliation. There is a balancing act at play here: 1. The Ethic of Reciprocity is in effect. Everyone lives and lets live. Everyone minds their own business and let's me get on with my own. 2. Someone transgresses against me but action is not necessary. Something minor has happened, I need do nothing but observe that the situation exists. Part of my analysis may involve a rough working of cost versus benefit to taking any positive action. I will tend to err on the side of inaction. 3. Someone transgresses against me and action is required. Someone has done something that requires not only my attention but actual action - a response. I have to speak to them or act against them in retaliation. The transgressive activity must end or things will escalate. 4. My good nature is abused and further transgressions have occurred. Lex Talionis is in effect. I now feel entirely within my rights to stop any further transgressions against me by whatever means necessary. If I have to, I will destroy the motherfucker who is bothering me. I have tried to keep the peace by peaceful means before, but I will not fail now even if I must resort to equal or greater violence. Nemo me impune lacessit. (latin for "No one injures me with impunity.") I am not the one causing the imbalance. I am the keeper of the balance and I respect the ethic of reciprocity. Back on topic: Curses can fall under the category of destroying some asshole that doesn't know how to keep the peace. I didn't start the conflict, but I do know how to finish it.

Termyn8or -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (8/2/2007 1:11:45 AM)
Sorry for the jumpthrough, but what do you think, that all Wiccan spells are curses ? I suppose some think occult means evil, but it does not. It merely means hidden, nothing more. Witchcraft can be for good or for bad. If witchtcraft actually works, and you are a witch, what are your odds of helping a friend out of a tough spot ? It is said that we use one sixth of our brains, I believe I use a bit more. Whether it is because the total is lower or another reason is for you to decide. I believe that some casn tap some powers of the mind at times. And I am not saying any of these are supernatural. Even PK, proven on the five oclock news would not be supernatural, it is a part of nature. At one time electricity would be deemed supernatural. The problem in developing in this subject are that one, the wrong people are doing the research, and two, they are doing the research on the worng people. There are exceptions. I don't want to go into that right now, red herrings are abound, and people who want to buy into them, buy into them. A true clairvoyant is very hard to find. I know all about the pentagram, and some about witches, but the question was about morality. Did you wish harn to fall upon one who owes you money, or somehow fucked you over ? Or did you just wish for extra luck for a relative or friend starting out a new relationship ? Here is the thing, if one is moral so is the other. To ask for priveledge for your allies is the same thing as not asking it for your enemies. And the fact that they can't do it is irrelevant. Any act would of course provide for your friends and detract from your enemies. So even good magic can be considered evil. Do as thou wilt, if it hurts none. But the morality of it is this, to gain even one minor special advantage over another that you did not earn is a sin because it took somkething from someone else. And without real merit.That is something I see as immoral. I deserve everything I have, including my problems. And half of them are people. I don't need to add witchcraft to the mix, I casn about barely keep up with it now. No way. Maybe when I get old I'll transform myself into a handsome Prince. Maybe not. Let Nature take her pace. My thoughts on the pentagram itself are a whole different matter, mail me if interested. T

LadyEllen -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (8/2/2007 3:19:27 AM)
To understand good and evil, right and wrong and so on beyond the level of creeds and commandments, I have found it necessary to delve into a variety of religions both extant and extinct, though I will admit with a concentration on Asatru as it relates to Odin, and Tibetan Buddhism. What I have found is that every true religion says, given cultural differences of expression, the very same thing; that ultimately we are not what we appear to be in the everyday. Rather we are all disconnected parts of "God" or whichever description one wishes to use, disconnected because of our own perception of being separate from "God" and indeed from one another and the cosmos in general. How this disconnect occurred is often explained differently in each religion, but the overall aim of each religion is the same it would appear - that is, to overcome our separation and rejoin "God". Why we should undertake such an endeavour is often explained in similar ways, which amount to the idea that the way we are as now is wrong and is the reason for our problems in life. If we can rejoin "God", then our problems will be solved, for we shall be restored to the right order of things and transcend our problematic separate lives. How we accomplish this is also often explained in different ways, though they all amount to the same thing - the letting go of the selfish mindset which assures us that we are separate from others and from the cosmos. From this point of view, it becomes clear as to why we should have creeds and commandments, which basically forbid us from acting in a way which is based on the selfish mindset and promote behaviour based on the achievement and realisation of unity with "God". We should be nice to one another not because "God" or whoever tells us to be so, but because this will help us to overcome our separation and restore ourselves to unity - and most importantly this is achieved in relation to our interactions with others - each of whom is also a part of "God". Our practice helps our progress and may also inspire others to take a similar path out of ignorance; though of course, there are plenty of those who fall into the category of ignorant and our efforts may be thrown back in our faces. The correct approach however is not to fight the ignorant, but to fight their ignorance - we do not turn the other cheek because we are simpering fools, but because we understand that the ignorant act from ignorance, that they are part of "God" too, even if they dont appreciate it. Now, I dont feel that should we progress towards achievement of such enlightenment, we are necessarily going to suddenly become luminescent beings or remove ourselves from where we are right now - we have a lot of our own ignorance and self awareness is deeply rooted. Albeit that it seems from various accounts that those who have accomplished the completion of this path have become luminescent and removed themselves. And as for "karma" and rebirth, well to understand these one has to appreciate that time does not actually exist except as a product of our selfish separation from the cosmos. Each of us is God, each of us is eternal, and so our rebirth is not so much a rebirth as simply the continuation of something which cannot die, in a timeline (spiral) which is not really there. Given this, it becomes clear as to why we can be reborn in any and every form, and in any and every time period in what we call history. What determines our rebirth is our mindset to the extent to which it is ignorant of or enlightened to the truth - the more enlightened we are, the "better" rebirth we shall have and vice versa - not because there is some being doling out judgement upon us (for we are that being), but because we shall have progressed through the stages through which the cosmos of which we are part has passed, by way of our religious progress - we shall be exactly where we are. Similar with karma, which amounts to the problems we suffer as a result of our ignorance and the actions we take based in it and the blessings we enjoy because of our enlightenment and its consequent actions. Thus, we really do determine our own fates, but only if we are aware of the truth. Unaware of the truth we act in ignorance and suffer. E

Ysabol -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (8/2/2007 5:32:11 PM)
There are many different "types" of Wiccan religion. Most of them center around the "threefold law" which is the "whatever you do, you recieve back three times." However, there is at least one type of Wicca, called Thelema, that does NOT follow this law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema My Master/Daddy is Thelemic, and I am an Eclectic "Kitchen" Witch. If anyone wants to discuss this with me, feel free to message me. I have no problems with ANY religion.

beargonewild -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (8/2/2007 5:53:53 PM)
From one who has embraced the Wiccan path several years ago, I found there are many different ways to interpret the Threefold law, or the Wiccan Rede. I can see many will dispute the concept of what one puts forth will return back, especially regarding a casting of curses. What makes sense to me is why would I use that energy to cast a curse on a person when I can use that same energy to better myself?

Aswad -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (8/2/2007 10:29:45 PM)
Ysabol, Thelema is not a Wiccan concept, nor is it necessarily compatible with the Rede. For an example of how Thelema can conflict with the Wiccan faith, you might examine the foundations of the OTO, for instance, particularly as regards the role of women in the divine: nothing. That hardly seems compatible with the dualistic notions held by Wiccans. Thelema is the concept of True Will made manifest, little else.

Ysabol -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (8/2/2007 11:03:40 PM)
My mistake, maybe I should have said Thelema is a "type" of "Pagan" religion then, although I have always been told that it was a type of Wiccan religion, along with Gardeneraian, Dianic, Druidic, Stega, and all the other various types of Wicca. I myself am Ecclectic, and follow no one "type" so I may have been confused.

Zensee -> RE: Witchcraft and morality. (8/2/2007 11:39:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: For an example of how Thelema can conflict with the Wiccan faith, you might examine the foundations of the OTO, for instance, particularly as regards the role of women in the divine: nothing. That hardly seems compatible with the dualistic notions held by Wiccans. Thelema is the concept of True Will made manifest, little else. Really? No role for the feminine? Except for Nuit as prime cause of the universe. Crowley might have been a bit dismissive of women personally but that is his prejudice, not something inherent in Thelema, the OTO or ceremonial magick. Unity, duality, trinity, the square etc etc - numbers are concepts exhaustively explored in the basic knowledge of ceremonial magick. The Book of Toth alone makes that clear. Dualism, wiccan or otherwise, is only one of the many manifestations of number in the universe. Scientific Iluminism requires each person perform their own experiments on themselves and derive their own proofs. Crowley never demanded blind obedience to dogma and he encouraged, nay insisted on questioning and testing of all assertions made by others and by one's self. And it's not like True Will is something to be sniffed at, being aligned directly to the Divine Will as expressed through the individual. Gerald Gardner was an initiate of the OTO and developed modern wicca as a sort of graduate thesis. Thelema is a moral / ethical value system and is arguably simply an expression of natural law, neither a mystical concept nor a permission for unrestrained indulgence, as some juvenile interpreters would like "Do what thou wilt..." to be. The difference between will and want is enormous and woe unto to those who fail to make this distinction. Z. PS: The Wiccan Rede is a fanciful modern invention (and lousy poetry in most forms I have see it in). It is useful and instructive, but pure dogma. I love Wiccan ritual and ceremony but it is neither inferior nor superior to any other mystical practice, just different.

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