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Witchcraft and morality. - 7/29/2007 9:43:51 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

In the Gorean forum a tread thoched into witchcraft and morality, that was a bit of topic of that tread but sinc it is an interesting topic i just wanted to make a new tread about it here.

Basically the talk was about whatever or not one get back what one sends out, so that a curse for exsample harms the caster. This is a common element in Wicca and several other occult groups. Peronally however i do not buy into this, the reason is that i do not belive in an univeral good or a univeral evil. And how can the universe punish sinners if it do not have a vision of sin. i think sin and evil are human consepts, not Devine ones.

There is a thing called cause and effect, this thing is basically that what you do will have consequenses, but this law only follow logic, not good or bad. If i go and hit somone on the street, i have a bigger chance of getting hit myself, and if i am generally nice i usually get treated whit friendlyness by others.

Another element of the Wiccan Karma is like attracts like, yes this is a common magickal idea. For example plant medecine have been done my it for millenia, ue a plant that look like the body part you want to heal, or things like the old superstition that if you keep coin in your pocet you will get more, but if you empty it out you will stay poor. All this is like attracts like, so yes negativity might attract negativity, but not in the form of divine retribution, and it can be controlled to a degree, if one usually do positive, one curse now and then to say it like that will not tip the balance and bring negativity to you.

i respect thise that belive magick work that way, belive in the three fold law, or Karma, but personally i do not. i belive good or bad actions can only be judged by ourself, the Devine  do not sit like punishing fathers and rain ruin down on the wicket, though some Energies and Gods might find disfavor in certing activities.

i hope we can have a good discussion on this.

i wish you all well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 12:26:59 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		It's not hocus-pocus. If you invest energy making something happen the greatest effect is felt closest to the source.


Z.


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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 12:50:48 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not sure how to answer this. Does the OP want this discussed in a Wiccan context or in any context?

The idea that a curse comes back at the person making the curse seems odd to me. And grafting the idea of Karma onto it seems odd also. If those notions were true then curse making would certainly have fallen out of favor - no one is going to effectively curse themselves, right?

I don't really believe in magic but I do think that ritual behavior can have a profound psychological impact on one. In a purely psychological context I can see Zensee's point (however much it would seem a Buddhist hybrid). But I also think that Zensee is ignoring the thrilling and cathartic benefits of curse-making.

Anger is an energy and sometimes you have to release it. It's perfectly healthy to do so.

Maybe it might be better to not become angry in the first place - but life is not always easy and sometimes one feels justified in being angry, feeling hatred, and even desiring to destroy others. I can turn the cheek with the best of them, but I also recognize my own limits. There comes a time when I can no longer forgive someone their trespasses against me.

Beware!


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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 3:04:30 AM   
sleazybutterfly


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Status: offline 		This is actually in most religions in one form or another, they just have a different way of saying it.
 
You reap what you sow, for example.
 
I really do believe we get back the energy we put out.  I have wanted to take revenge a few times, but I know in my heart that it will only come back to bite me in the ass.  We all get it back and usually in a worse way than the way we put it out in the first place.  We may never see the result of someone paying for the wrongs they do, but eventually they will...in this life or the next.
 
Everything in Gods time, that is my belief.  To each their own.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 3:17:30 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		They way I see it, it is not so much the curse itself which comes back on the caster, but the mindset from which the desire to curse another arises. It is that one has taken a mindset based on the true cause of evil, self, and then heightened that greatly to produce sufficient energy to make the curse. What one has written for oneself in Wyrd (Karma) is the prime cause of suffering - self, and so one will experience not the rebounding of the curse itself, but the consequences of one's own mindset. However, I am quite prepared to be out of step with much of Asatru on that account, since the way I read the worldview it has, is perhaps a little different to the way in which others see it.

The only valid curse as I see it, is the type I have used in the past to good effect; that which brings forth the consequences of others' selfish mindsets all in one go, and even then only as defence, not as attack, and with the caveat that they might thereby see the error of their ways too. In this way, no new evil is created, because one relies on exhausting that which already exists, without incurring negative effects on oneself. The energy of hatred required for such a curse is directed at the self mindset of the target, not the person himself, and it being a religious aim to destroy self, the motivation is good. In Christian terms, it is hatred for the sin and not the sinner.

As for whether such a curse works, I am sure there will be many who will doubt and some who will attack the idea. All I can say, is that scientifically speaking, there have been some interesting coincidences.

E

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 3:27:44 AM   
sexypet


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Status: offline 		i wonder why no one else ever wonders if God/the Divine/the Universe (take Your personal pick)  put some of us here to deliver His justice for Him.  Who is to say --with certainty-- that isn't the case?

Doreen Valiente was Gerald Gardner's assistant and was in the room when he made up the 3 Fold Law to keep followers from misusing their power.  i am not saying the number 3 does not have metaphysical meaning, as it does.  It's just Gardner adapted that belief from his own personal interpretations of many sources, including what Charles Godfrey Leland had written in a book in 1899.  According to Wiki and other sources, this book became a primary source text for  Neopaganism half a century later, and it was titled "Aradia, or the Gospel of the Witches".
 

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 3:35:57 AM   
nephandi


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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Hi

i have personally made curses work, though i very seldom do them. i do not belive in Kara as such, the only thing i have found is that revenge of any kind is seldom worth the effort. While it might feel good to make somone that have hurt you pay, it is usually more protuctive to walk away and spend one energie elsewere.

Yes most big religions have some sort of you reap what you sow, however i think that this element is often there ot A scare the practitioners to do good and B give pepole a sense of justice. That the evil Baron that none can punish in this life will get his punishment in the next. i do not say that the Karma belifh is wrong or not worth anything, i belive all faith is worth anything. But i do not think it is universal.

As for the tread. i just wanted to take up a subject tuched upon in another tread where it was off topic. i am not just thinking about a Wiccan context, but witchcraft in general.

i wish you all well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 7:45:55 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Does the OP want this discussed in a Wiccan context or in any context?


Presumably any context, as she is eclectic.

quote:


The idea that a curse comes back at the person making the curse seems odd to me.


You're not the only one finding it odd.

quote:


And grafting the idea of Karma onto it seems odd also.


Mostly, it is the other way around, that neo-pagans have assembled their beliefs from a variety of sources. One of these sources is the oft-misunderstood concept of Karma, itself derived from others in turn, in a long chain of Chinese Whispers.

The earliest roots for this, as far as I can tell, is ṛtá (ऋत), from PIE *h2r-to-.

In the Vedic and Zoroastrian worldviews, these are the concepts of the natural order of things. In short, a mystic view of cause and effect, little more. However, as with most of the mystic concepts out there, a whole slew of concepts are consider a single, atomic unit of great complexity, rather than several smaller, orthogonal units of low complexity.

For this reason, the concepts tend to get warped with time, and applied in ways that are far from their original meanings. One might go so far as to say this mode of thinking is the only reason Occam's Razor has any merit to it. Sadly, it is still quite prevalent today, with most people bunching together a mess of ideas as one, while in truth they constitute quite seperate and independent ideas. This is not limited to mystics, and I have indeed found mystics who are very insistent on dissecting compound ideas into constituents.

quote:


If those notions were true then curse making would certainly have fallen out of favor - no one is going to effectively curse themselves, right?


Quite.

But believing you will be adversely affected by acting in a socially unacceptable manner may keep you from doing it. Kind of like how some parents still tell their kids that they will go blind, or get hairy palms, or whatever, from masturbating. And having belief in something gives it a measure of power over you. Hence, the OPs point about the so-called "three-fold law" applying to Wiccans, but not to those who do not believe in it.

quote:


But I also think that Zensee is ignoring the thrilling and cathartic benefits of curse-making. Anger is an energy and sometimes you have to release it. It's perfectly healthy to do so.


~nod~

quote:


I can turn the cheek with the best of them, but I also recognize my own limits. There comes a time when I can no longer forgive someone their trespasses against me.


Quite.

As far as I can tell, all people have a limit. Recognizing it is what is important, along with attempting to get out of a situation before that limit is reached. Beyond that line, most of the time, nothing constructive happens. I readily admit to having a limit, albeit one that is quite far out. When it is crossed, people generally do not trespass again. But I make an effort to get out of a situation before my limit is reached, as well as warning people, and have in recent years learned how to vent a bit of steam to be able to take a bit more before the limit is reached.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 7:48:37 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

You reap what you sow, for example.


Well, to be more specific, what you sow influences what you reap. There will still be failing crops, weeds, bugs and assortments of other seeds that decided to take root in your field. To say that you reap what you sow is to say that you have perfect control over the causal cascade of your universe, in effect to say that you are a god, and I do not think most people aspire to that level of hubris.

Hence, I tend to assume people overgeneralize for the benefit of the ignorant, or are ignorant themselves.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 7:51:29 AM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

But I also think that Zensee is ignoring the thrilling and cathartic benefits of curse-making.


"Master - the fools still believe you are benevolent."

"Good, Igor. Good! Muahahaha... Wait. (tap tap) Is this thing on? Shi...."


Z.


_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 8:23:03 AM   
MasterNdorei


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Status: offline 		The concept of karma stems from a religion (I beleive it was eastern) that predates Wicca.  The idea of it was included in Wiccan concepts, probably in hopes of keeping people from using what they might learn to intentionally hurt others.

The threefold law has never made sense to me. Where are three folds for all the good spells and workings people do? If this was in affect there are a multitude of people who would be rolling in money, have more children than they could handle, a different job for every hour of the day... and so on.

It is mentioned only when one is talking about doing harmful workings which makes it even more ludicrious in my mind... It is in effect for one type of spell, but not in the event you have been doing spells for money, fertiltiy, jobs and other types of "helpful" spells.

I believe there are certain causes and affects put in place through out the universe, but I agree with thinking the deities are too busy for with karmic scorecards and tits for tats.

dorei

Can we stay on topic past the tits for tats comment? Hmmmmmm




< Message edited by MasterNdorei -- 7/30/2007 8:26:07 AM >

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Everything in nature grows or rots. There is nothing in between. What are you doing today?

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 10:41:31 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Hi

Yes Karma was an eastern religon. It is also a part of Buddisem. Basically the consept is this. If i am cruel and cheap in this life, not giving money to the poor and generally being just selfish. Perhaps i will need to learn to be kind and will be a beggar the next life to learn from living a life that need somone to show kindess. This has little to do whit punishment, but has more to do whit human beings having to learn many, many things for our souls to be perfect. Though in Buddism one can be punished and be reborn as an animal, but the poit still stays, there karma is more like your destiny, the things your soul need to learn, than it is a metod of punishment.

i to have wondered where are three times good one are promised. The Wiccan Reed to say: Follow the Wiccan Reed you should. Three times bad and three times good. And yet i hear of few that have had this furfilled, though many tell horror stories of being punished for wrong doings.

One Wiccan girl i talked to told of this Wiccan collage boy. he was generally an ass, insulting and hurting pepole left and right. He also liked to get high, then drink, then drive his car around to continue the party. This he did often. One day he got in a car accsident and ended up in a wheel chair. See the girl said, Karma in action. No i said, cause and effect, he was driving not just drink but high to, often and he had an accsident, infact i am inclined to belive he had a Guardian Angle due to the fact he was not killed. i do not see his accsident to have anything to do whit Devine retribution and everything to do whit his own stupidity.

i wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 11:39:29 AM   
sophia37


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Status: offline 		I didnt think Wicca was about black magic, which is what you describe.

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 11:58:07 AM   
sleazybutterfly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

You reap what you sow, for example.


Well, to be more specific, what you sow influences what you reap. There will still be failing crops, weeds, bugs and assortments of other seeds that decided to take root in your field. To say that you reap what you sow is to say that you have perfect control over the causal cascade of your universe, in effect to say that you are a god, and I do not think most people aspire to that level of hubris.

Hence, I tend to assume people overgeneralize for the benefit of the ignorant, or are ignorant themselves.



I have studied many different religions, or faiths however it floats someones boat to say them.  A common theme you will find in most of them from Buddhism to Wicca is the idea of getting out of the universe what you put out into it.  Treat others bad, it will come back, throw curses out on someone, you get it back three fold.
 
People can believe what they want.  I don't believe that a curse has anymore power than what it is given.  I think that our minds can create our cirumstances in a way. 
 
Say you think someone put a curse on you, you can take many bad things that would have happened normally and put them off to the curse. 

How I take "you reap what you sow", others can take it how they prefer.  That doesn't mean that just because you are a great person, others will give you a million dollars.  Maybe it means that if you go thru this life treating other living creatures with love and respect, you can walk with your head up knowing you are living in a good way.  Maybe it means that if you go around treating others like shit, you will feel the way about yourself you should. 
 
I am sure it could mean that if you do something bad to someone, it will come back and bite you in the ass.  Since revenge is a waste of time and energy, I prefer to just let the universe (or God, to me) handle that type of thing.
 
If you don't agree with what someone else believes, that does not make them nor their ideas ignorant.  The only ignorant mind is one that is closed to the possibility that someone besides themselves might be right about something.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 12:02:24 PM   
sleazybutterfly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

I didnt think Wicca was about black magic, which is what you describe.


You have one group that call themselves "white witches", they are usually the ones that don't believe in putting bad energy out to others.  In creating harmony between themselves and other living creatures.  They are more likely to take the stand that you put out good, you get it back, put out bad, get it back 3x.
 
There is also a group that call themselves "black witches", they are more the ones to put curses, spells..etc on others.  That doesn't mean they don't respect the universe or think there should be harmony, it's just that they take it upon themselves to try and do harm to those that have harmed them.
 
Both have rituals, some for the "black ones" might seem a bit darker.  It's more in how they choose to live or to worship.
 
Just like with most other religions out there, there are sub-groups to Wicca.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 1:09:53 PM   
nephandi


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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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quote:

I didnt think Wicca was about black magic, which is what you describe.


Wicca is not about magic at all it is a religion, it is about the Gods and nature. i have never said Wicca is about black magick, i have discussed if their idea of Devine retribution is correct or not.

i wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 1:25:54 PM   
nephandi


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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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quote:

I have studied many different religions, or faiths however it floats someones boat to say them.  A common theme you will find in most of them from Buddhism to Wicca is the idea of getting out of the universe what you put out into it.  Treat others bad, it will come back, throw curses out on someone, you get it back three fold.


Can you define bad? What is bad, or evil, remember one man's evil is another man's good. You speak further down about being open to others belifhs, but what if that belifh have another idea of evil than you, are the Gods on your side then, or on theirs. It is interesting that in almost all war through the ages, the combatants have been sure that God or the Gods have been on their side and not the other one.

quote:

People can believe what they want.  I don't believe that a curse has anymore power than what it is given.  I think that our minds can create our cirumstances in a way. 


So "good" magick works but "bad" is just your imagination, do you think magick it and judge, determining witch spell to back so to speak. i am sorry if i sound harsh, but this is one of my peeves, and one of the things that cause the most problems whit for exsample nature medecine, pepole belive that if it is natrual, or spiritual it can do no harm. Fact of the matter is, if it can do good, it can do harm.

quote:

you can walk with your head up knowing you are living in a good way.  Maybe it means that if you go around treating others like shit, you will feel the way about yourself you should.


The religious fanatics that strap bombs to their bodies and kill pepole hold their head high and say they are living in a good way, they belive and follow their idea of good. Are they? Or are there one true path of good?

quote:

I am sure it could mean that if you do something bad to someone, it will come back and bite you in the ass.  Since revenge is a waste of time and energy, I prefer to just let the universe (or God, to me) handle that type of thing.


i agree that revenge is a waste of time and Energy. But why would God handle it? Why would God take revenge for you. Do you tuink he have the same morality as you?

As for black and white witches, no, Wiccans do not use such terms, they do not even use the term black and white magick. While there are countless occult groups and there may be groups that call themself the White Witches or the Black Witches, they are not Wiccan. There are Witchcraft practitioners that dedicate their lives to do good, and there are others that might trow a curse or two. But neither curses, or black or white magick as terms are part of Wicca and never was. Wicca see magick as Devine, it have no color, no destinction, it is the practitioner that make it good or bad.

i wish you well







_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 1:35:24 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		I would feel rather confidient in assuring you that, while there is almost certainly a universal truth, it is likely mundane in the hopes and intersets of humans at this time.  Right, wrong- it's just over simplification, so far as humans are able to perceive such concepts.

"Right" is something that contributes, or at least fall short of contradicting, the overall goals as one can see them.  "Right" is, likely, living long and happily, along with those you care about.  It's things that contribute to this.

The "right thing to do" may be considered like a move in a game- say, tic-tac-toe, for simplisty's sake.  One who's played tic-tac-toe a couple of times is likely aware that one may play flawlessly- always either winning or tying- no matter what the opponent does (short of violating the rules of the game, such as beating the other player unconscious, which, if you ask me, just isn't very sportsman-like).  A perfectly pious tic-tac-toe player always conducts such moves.

Still, though, life isn't as simple.  Let's say life is more like.. chess.  (Even though this is likely at least a googleplex magnitudes more simplistic than life.)  What's the right move?  The exact right move?  Unless it's something easy, like where a move can checkmate an opponent for certain, it's not often an easy call.  You sort of guess.  You chose what you think might be a good move.  To stick to these good moves is to be moral.

As you grow, you learn to look ahead more, learning subtle intracacies- your morality changes and you grow.  You learn taking an opponent's pawn might not be worth the sacarfice, just as one might learn that insulting someone one doesn't care for might not always be the best course of action.

A lot of people go by the player's guide.  The book that tells you which moves to take.  The law.
More inexperienced individuals will often take pawns, regardless of consquences- not seeing so far ahead.
As a player grows more experienced, he may gain skill beyond that which the writer(s) of the player's guide was able to convay (and, eventually, perhaps even which such a person was able to perceive themself).

I'm so tired of people arguing over the player's guide.  (People in general.)

---

In any case, you're Aswad's?  I'm glad to see you here.

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RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 4:41:43 PM   
sleazybutterfly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

quote:

I have studied many different religions, or faiths however it floats someones boat to say them.  A common theme you will find in most of them from Buddhism to Wicca is the idea of getting out of the universe what you put out into it.  Treat others bad, it will come back, throw curses out on someone, you get it back three fold.


Can you define bad? What is bad, or evil, remember one man's evil is another man's good. You speak further down about being open to others belifhs, but what if that belifh have another idea of evil than you, are the Gods on your side then, or on theirs. It is interesting that in almost all war through the ages, the combatants have been sure that God or the Gods have been on their side and not the other one.
That is why I don't sit in judgement of what others do.  I feel there are some moral standards, such as not to kill..but where do you draw the line on that?  Do you kill one that kills a child?  Can you kill someone that is getting ready to kill you?  I don't know where the absolutes are for anyone else, I only know where they exist for me.  I take things from the Bible, if that is not your belief, I can't convince you to do the same. 

quote:

People can believe what they want.  I don't believe that a curse has anymore power than what it is given.  I think that our minds can create our cirumstances in a way. 


So "good" magick works but "bad" is just your imagination, do you think magick it and judge, determining witch spell to back so to speak. i am sorry if i sound harsh, but this is one of my peeves, and one of the things that cause the most problems whit for exsample nature medecine, pepole belive that if it is natrual, or spiritual it can do no harm. Fact of the matter is, if it can do good, it can do harm.

Where did I say that "good" magick works?  I actually don't believe in so called good magick either.  Anything can do harm if it gets into the wrong hands, there is too much of a good thing, depending on your definition of good.  I believe that we can make wonderful things happen for ourselves.  I believe in the power of positive thinking and negative thinking.  I believe in the power of prayer.  Nothing you can say will make me say what I have in a different way.  You are entitled to your beliefs as I am entitled to mine.  I don't remember attacking yours in any way.  One of my pet peeves is those that jump to conclusions about something I didn't even write, then for some reason decide to quote me.

quote:

you can walk with your head up knowing you are living in a good way.  Maybe it means that if you go around treating others like shit, you will feel the way about yourself you should.


The religious fanatics that strap bombs to their bodies and kill pepole hold their head high and say they are living in a good way, they belive and follow their idea of good. Are they? Or are there one true path of good?

I don't know.  I have never claimed to have all of the answers, nor will I ever.  When my time on earth is done, I do hope that part of death will be getting to the bottom of some questions I have.  I admit that those above won't be the first ones I ask though. 
 
For them, perhaps they are.  For me, they aren't.  I don't follow their faith, so I have no way to judge why they believe what they do.  I am sure their conviction is just as strong as mine, only we go different directions. 

quote:

I am sure it could mean that if you do something bad to someone, it will come back and bite you in the ass.  Since revenge is a waste of time and energy, I prefer to just let the universe (or God, to me) handle that type of thing.


i agree that revenge is a waste of time and Energy. But why would God handle it? Why would God take revenge for you. Do you tuink he have the same morality as you?
How do you know He doesn't?  Do I ask Him to kill, or ruin anyones life because they did me wrong?  No, I don't.  I ask for the strength to let go and move on with my life and not to let them cause me harm in the future.  You assume I just ask for Him to strike someone down on my command.  There are different ways of getting revenge, perhaps moving on and living happy is the biggest one.

As for black and white witches, no, Wiccans do not use such terms, they do not even use the term black and white magick. While there are countless occult groups and there may be groups that call themself the White Witches or the Black Witches, they are not Wiccan. There are Witchcraft practitioners that dedicate their lives to do good, and there are others that might trow a curse or two. But neither curses, or black or white magick as terms are part of Wicca and never was. Wicca see magick as Devine, it have no color, no destinction, it is the practitioner that make it good or bad.

Actually who says they don't use those terms?  I know those that follow Wicca that use those exact terms.  There are branches of almost any faith, the Christian faith alone has probably a hundred or more.  You see it as that way, and perhaps others see it as you say, but that does not mean that all do.  You generalize, and that is dangerous and another pet peeve of mine.

i wish you well

As I wish you well.  I don't mind a debate in any religion or subject.  I don't take anything personal, but I will always feel free to answer back, as I would hope and assume you would also.






_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Witchcraft and morality. - 7/30/2007 5:17:17 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Hi

quote:

That is why I don't sit in judgement of what others do.  I feel there are some moral standards, such as not to kill..but where do you draw the line on that?  Do you kill one that kills a child?  Can you kill someone that is getting ready to kill you?  I don't know where the absolutes are for anyone else, I only know where they exist for me.  I take things from the Bible, if that is not your belief, I can't convince you to do the same.


i do belive in personal morals, but not universal ones, i know what my morale, my idea of right and wrong is, but i can not say that my opinions of this are universal or that they are any more right that what others belive. i for example thinks capital punishment is wrong, i think that is just state sanctioned murder, but for some killing a wrong doer is accseptable or even right, pepole have wastly different opinions on morals, and one can really just judge one self, as we as human beings just do not know if there is a universal right and wrong, and if they exisit, what they may be.

quote:

Where did I say that "good" magick works?  I actually don't believe in so called good magick either.


i belived you was a Pagan. i am sorry, my bad.

quote:

How do you know He doesn't?  Do I ask Him to kill, or ruin anyones life because they did me wrong?  No, I don't.  I ask for the strength to let go and move on with my life and not to let them cause me harm in the future.  You assume I just ask for Him to strike someone down on my command.  There are different ways of getting revenge, perhaps moving on and living happy is the biggest one.


i do not know He do not. And i do not know what you ask God. But from what you originally wrote, and the topic of the tread, it sounded to me like if you expected God to punish those that you saw as wrongdoers. We understood one another wrong and i am sorry if i got the wrong idea. Anyway my point in either case was not to say anything wrong about whit you belive, but simply to debate the topic of Devine retribution in Witchcraft.

quote:

Actually who says they don't use those terms?  I know those that follow Wicca that use those exact terms.  There are branches of almost any faith, the Christian faith alone has probably a hundred or more.  You see it as that way, and perhaps others see it as you say, but that does not mean that all do.  You generalize, and that is dangerous and another pet peeve of mine.


There might be pepole that call themself Wiccan that use that term. But it is about the same as for a Christian to say well I call my God Odin and see him as a big Viking. Sure there is nothing wrong whit seeing God as a big Viking, and if that faith give meaning for somone sure go ahead. But somone that prays to Odin is not a Christian, at least not in the convetional sense. Wicca have a rather distinct origin, the writings of one man named Gardener, sure there are now many that use the word Wicca about any practitioner of Witchcraft, but this not right. I sometimes pray to the God Jehova as one of the Gods I have contact whit, but that do not make me a Christian. And there are many that claim the title of Wicca out there that are no more Wiccan than I am Chatolic.



_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to sleazybutterfly)
Profile   Post #: 20
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