RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (Full Version)

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stef -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (7/6/2005 5:55:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, well, Palmeiro and Sosa didn't take the Fifth, and I don't believe them either. What's your point exactly--that I don't really think Armstrong cheated, I'm just deceiving myself?

There are two points. First, McGwire was a poor choice in your litle comparison since he's already admitted to using performance-enhancing drugs and looks like the posterchild for 'roid rage.' Second, if Armstrong is doping, where is the associated spike in ability that you would expect from such chemical assistance? His power output has been steady over the last six years, so if he was doping, it would have to be nearly continuous to maintain his level of ability. Do you really believe he's been able to stymie the testers for six years while continuously using performance-enhancing drugs?

quote:

I'll give you a taste of your own medicine: What I said is the truth; your opinion is irrelevant. (Only I won't misspell "irrelevant.")

No, you'll just regularly use incorrect punctuation. Please—two hyphens where an em dash should be? You're not typing on an IBM Selectric anymore LaM, get with the times! (It's Alt+0151, by the way.)

Oh, and grow up.

quote:

Oh, and edited to add: Armstrong gets PAID for those BMS ads.

Heavens, no! How much was he paid for them?

~stef



happypervert -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (7/6/2005 9:02:39 AM)

quote:

first this:
Some people do charity work if they want to support cancer research. Lance does promotional bike runs for big pharma.

then later this:
What I said is the truth;

Just to be clear, the truth is that you think all that silly stuff because what you wrote is just misinformed and distorted opinion. Calling it the "truth" is a joke.

But just on the slim chance you might actually know what you're talking about I checked out this link to the annual report of the Lance Armstrong Foundation just to see what they were up to. I was amazed to see just how evil he really is, having raised $35 million and then funneling it back into cancer education and university based research programs.

<sarcasm mode ON>
Now I understand how you can paint him out to be a tool of the big pharmaceutical companies because if folks get diagnosed early and get treated then they'll buy more drugs than if they die.
<sarcasm mode OFF>

Looks like you decided you don't like him and you'll justify it with any bs excuse you can. If you're not embarrassed for having such warped perceptions, then at least you should be for not having enough sense to keep quiet about it.



Lordandmaster -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (7/6/2005 10:35:45 AM)

Oh, come off it. And stop commenting on things you don't know about. "What I said is the truth; your opinion is irrelevant" refers to this thread:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_118456/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#120297

What I said IS the truth: I think Lance Armstrong cheated, and I know my own opinion better than you do. Sorry if you don't like it.

Edited to add: The only reason why I stated any of this is that LA asked me why I want him to lose. I still want him to lose, and I think it's revealing, actually, that just wanting Lance Armstrong to lose is enough to piss off a whole bunch of people.



Lordandmaster -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (7/6/2005 10:51:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

There are two points. First, McGwire was a poor choice in your litle comparison since he's already admitted to using performance-enhancing drugs and looks like the posterchild for 'roid rage.'


McGwire has never admitted to cheating. He admitted to using a substance that was legal when he used it--his endearing way of admitting something without admitting anything. But he flatly denied that Canseco ever injected him with steroids. Yet I still believe he cheated, and so, apparently, do you.

quote:


Second, if Armstrong is doping, where is the associated spike in ability that you would expect from such chemical assistance? His power output has been steady over the last six years, so if he was doping, it would have to be nearly continuous to maintain his level of ability. Do you really believe he's been able to stymie the testers for six years while continuously using performance-enhancing drugs?


Yes, I do. If you knew as much about drug tests as you pretend to, you would know that there are many ways of cheating that tests cannot uncover. Also, a "spike in ability" is no longer the telltale sign of cheating that it used to be. Follow the careers of the baseball players who HAVE been caught this year: none of them ever had a "spike in ability." Sammy Sosa, who is the other poster-child for roid rage, never had a spike in ability, either. He just had an enormous drop-off once he stopped relying on his little helpers. But we're never going to see that phase with Lance.

quote:


No, you'll just regularly use incorrect punctuation. Please—two hyphens where an em dash should be? You're not typing on an IBM Selectric anymore LaM, get with the times! (It's Alt+0151, by the way.)

Oh, and grow up.


This is getting awfully petty, and -- is not incorrect punctuation. You can use Alt+0151 if you'd like; I think -- is a lot easier.

Are you really so unhappy that it makes your day to argue with a stranger on the internet about his feelings concerning Lance Armstrong? You're not going to change my mind. I dislike him.

Lam



Faramir -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (7/6/2005 11:30:29 AM)

How the fuck could anyone bitch about Lance Armstrong raising millions for cancer? How could you, unless you were just looking to squabble, bitch about a guy who has helped raise tens of millions in cancer reasearch?



stef -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (7/6/2005 1:07:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

McGwire has never admitted to cheating. He admitted to using a substance that was legal when he used it--his endearing way of admitting something without admitting anything. But he flatly denied that Canseco ever injected him with steroids. Yet I still believe he cheated, and so, apparently, do you.

I believe that there is a good chance that he did, but since I have no proof, I'm not going to be presumptuous enough to make any definitive claims.

See the difference?

quote:

Yes, I do. If you knew as much about drug tests as you pretend to, you would know that there are many ways of cheating that tests cannot uncover.

Feel free to enlighten us on these methods, since you 'clearly' know so much.

quote:

Also, a "spike in ability" is no longer the telltale sign of cheating that it used to be. Follow the careers of the baseball players who HAVE been caught this year: none of them ever had a "spike in ability." Sammy Sosa, who is the other poster-child for roid rage, never had a spike in ability, either. He just had an enormous drop-off once he stopped relying on his little helpers. But we're never going to see that phase with Lance.

There's one glaring reason why, and it isn't the one you're peddling. Ockham's Razor comes to mind here.

quote:

This is getting awfully petty, and -- is not incorrect punctuation. You can use Alt+0151 if you'd like; I think -- is a lot easier.

This coming from the person who harps on the same spelling mistake in multiple posts? Priceless. You calling someone petty is like David Duke calling someone a racist.

The use of two hyphens is incorrect when you have the ability to use the proper punctuation. Laziness does not excuse the error.

quote:

Are you really so unhappy that it makes your day to argue with a stranger on the internet about his feelings concerning Lance Armstrong? You're not going to change my mind. I dislike him.

I'm not unhappy at all. I just enjoy watching you make yourself look like a fool. Free entertainment is always a good thing [:D]

~stef



Lordandmaster -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (7/6/2005 1:14:28 PM)

I didn't make a single "definitive claim." I said I BELIEVE HE CHEATED. Do you read?

Oh, and Faramir, lay off the insults. Maybe then you'd prove to people that you know how to talk like a civilized human being. Someone asked me why I don't like Lance Armstrong, and I responded.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

I believe that there is a good chance that he did, but since I have no proof, I'm not going to be presumptuous enough to make any definitive claims.

See the difference?




stef -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (7/6/2005 6:49:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I didn't make a single "definitive claim." I said I BELIEVE HE CHEATED. Do you read?

The question you should be asking is can't you even remember what you wrote? In this post (last edited on 7/5/2005 at 10:50:27 AM) you said "I am convinced that he has cheated."

At any rate, it's another nice selective reply on your part. I take it you're not going to dazzle us with your knowledge of the WADA and USDADA testing procedures and how easy it is to dupe them? After all, why should anyone expect you back up any of the claims you make?

~stef



Lordandmaster -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (7/6/2005 7:22:08 PM)

"I am convinced that he has cheated" is not a claim of any kind. It is not the same statement as "He has cheated." I can't tell whether you really don't understand the difference, or whether you are just pretending not to understand in order to draw out this tiresome conversation.

At any rate, I don't have anything more to say. I don't like Lance Armstrong. I'm convinced he cheated. I hope he loses. There's really not much you can say that's going to change my mind about any of this. You can keep trying, but I'm going to ignore you at this point.



happypervert -> And now a mountaintop finish! (7/11/2005 9:02:40 PM)

There were a few surprises the first week. Lance passing Ullrich in stage 1 was probably the biggest. Also how Armstrong's team conked out on Stage 8 which was the first day they hit some decent hills, but it isn't unusual for some guys to have trouble when the pace shifts from flying on the flats to grinding up the hills; it IS unusual for a whole team as strong as Armstrong's to disappear like that but they looked back to normal yesterday. Another exciting day was Stage 6 when it looked like Christophe Mengin might stay ahead of the charging peloton for the win . . . until Vinokourov attacked and caught him in the last kilometer. Then Mengin crashed dramatically going around the last rain slicked corner slowing down Vinokourov enough to allow some Italian guy nobody ever heard of to go around both of them and coast in for the win; behind him the sprinter teams were piled up in a massive crash in the same spot as Mengin. What fun!

But all of that was just the appetizer for the main course -- the mountains. And Tuesday has the first stage with a mountaintop finish. We can expect some opportunists take off early in the hope of staying away until the end; more often than not the survivors of the break will run out of gas on the final climb as the contenders battle it out and fly by them. The pattern over the past few years is that Armstrong's team hits the bottom of the climb setting a pace that only the best climbers can stick with; eventually the field gets whittled down to a handful of the strongest and then Armstrong takes off and leaves them behind. Last year it was almost the same, except that pesky Ivan Basso stuck with him. So Tuesday the real contenders will emerge, and as this week in the mountains goes on we'll see who can maintain these brutal efforts.



stef -> RE: And now a mountaintop finish! (7/11/2005 9:18:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

At any rate, I don't have anything more to say. I don't like Lance Armstrong. I'm convinced he cheated. I hope he loses. There's really not much you can say that's going to change my mind about any of this. You can keep trying, but I'm going to ignore you at this point.

Of course. That way you don't have to back up any of your claims. Sadly, I can't say that I'm surprised.


quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

So Tuesday the real contenders will emerge, and as this week in the mountains goes on we'll see who can maintain the brutal pace.

It's going to be very interesting to see who keeps themselves at the front of the OC tomorrow, er, today. It's going to be a brutal 192.5 kilometers and Courchevel just might make some people re-think their career choices.

~stef



stef -> RE: And now a mountaintop finish! (7/12/2005 9:09:21 PM)

It looks like Courchevel did just as I predicted, as Jens Voigt finished 31'29" back, relinquishing the maillot jaune once again to Lance Armstrong. Armstrong and his Discovery Networks team put a heaping helping of hurt on the rest of the field today, breaking the backs of many riders who were considered to be his main competition this year.

Things sure are going to be interesting tomorrow as they continue deeper into the mountains.

~stef



happypervert -> RE: And now a mountaintop finish! (7/13/2005 6:22:12 AM)

It amazes me that those guys could ride up that mountain that fast and then sprint at the end.

Surprised to see Vino crack; also surprised to see Mancebo stick with Armstrong because based on his past performances I expected him to finish about 2 minutes back. Also surprised to see Rasmussen stick with them because I figured he would still be recovering from his solo break about 2 days ago; he may still pay for that effort before the mountain stages are finished.

As for some former teammates of Lance -- nice rides by Leipheimer and Landis, so now 3 Americans in the top 10; lousy ride by Heras -- lets hope he can do something in the Vuelta again.

And the war of attrition continues . . .



happypervert -> Two more mountaintop finishes (7/15/2005 7:02:44 PM)

The stages on Saturday and Sunday finish at the end of climbs in the Pyrenees, and it ought to be nuts as usual. That's the Basque region and a lot of their fans will be dressed in orange to root for their local team, Euskatel Euskadi, who are also in orange and can be expected to try to attack along with other Spaniards and give their fans a thrill by winning the stage.

Meanwhile, Lance Armstrong has a commanding lead over most contenders except for Rasmussen who is only 38 seconds behind and has looked really strong so far. He's not known for his time trialing skills so he can also be expected to try to gain time over Armstrong as a buffer for the last time trial in about a week; good luck with that.

Assuming neither Armstrong or Rasmussen conks out, the other contenders are fighting for the third spot on the podium at the finish and it will basically be decided this weekend. Right now Christophe Moreau is in third, but that is mainly because he gained time in a break last Sunday and there are now 7 guys within 2 minutes of him. Moreau is the great French hope for stage races; in other words, it will be fun to watch him kill himself fighting the inevitable loss of time to better climbers like Basso, Mancebo and Leipheimer until he takes his rightful place behind them.

So this weekend will be great spectacle -- dramatic competition, awesome scenery, and crazy fans. That's about as entertaining as it gets.



happypervert -> The final showdowns (7/19/2005 7:17:15 PM)

Stage 20 on Saturday is the time trial which will decide the finishing order for Sunday when they ride into Paris. Here is the order now with time gaps:

1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel
2 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 2.46
3 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 3.09
4 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 5.58
5 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears 6.31
6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 7.35
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 9.29
8 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 9.33
9 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 9.38

Rasmussen now has the final spot on the podium with Ullrich almost 3 minutes behind; Ullrich is a great time trialist and Rasmussen has never tried to be good, so most folks expect Ullrich to pass him. However, when Rasmussen won Stage 9 he was being chased by 2 decent time trialers and they didn't gain time, so he may be better than anyone imagines when he tries. One bit of trivia here -- this course is the same one Jan Ullrich won on in the '97 Tour, and he passed Richard Virenque who had started 3 minutes ahead of him.

Based on their performances in the short Stage 1 time trial, we can also expect Floyd Landis and Levi Leipheimer to gain one place in the classification; Floyd may even have a shot at getting ahead of Mancebo too. And Vinokourov beat Floyd in Stage 1, and may again; but I have to wonder -- with the way Vino has been attacking he has to run out of gas sometime.

So that's how things could play out assuming the time gaps stay the same, but there are still two wicked days of climbing left and one, Stage 18 on Thursday, finishes at the top of a climb. So, we can expect some more fireworks as riders like Rasmussen try to gain some more time on guys behind them. These aren''t considered mountain days, but they are in an area called the massif central where they'll either be going up or down hills all day long. This link has a brief description and a map for Stage 18 -- my legs get sore just from looking at it. The next day has more leg breaking hills, though the lack of an uphill finish suggests that all the contenders will finish together. But this is a punishing way to lead up to that final time trial and it wouldn't surprise me to see somebody crack before Paris, and any weakness will be exposed in the time trial.



Lordandmaster -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (8/3/2005 11:12:01 AM)

Turns out I was right about this, doesn't it...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, well, Palmeiro and Sosa didn't take the Fifth, and I don't believe them either.




happypervert -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (8/3/2005 12:13:34 PM)

quote:

Turns out I was right about this, doesn't it...


If you're trying to imply that you're also right about Armstrong, then this is like a stopped clock patting itself on the back for being right twice a day.



Lordandmaster -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (8/3/2005 12:20:47 PM)

Sfgrrl was taking the line that I can't be right about Armstrong because he hasn't failed a drug test. Well, it turns out I was right about Palmeiro, and at the time he hadn't failed a drug test either (although now it has been revealed that he failed his test in May, and that the results weren't announced because he went through a cycle of protests and grievances). I'm sure I was right about Sosa, too. It is possible to be right about something that has not been proven.

So I still think I was right about Armstrong, but we'll probably never know.

Just to piss off the Armstrong lovers, I'll bring up another point:

quote:

Second, if Armstrong is doping, where is the associated spike in ability that you would expect from such chemical assistance?


Where was Palmeiro's "associated spike"? (Where was Rafael Betancourt's "spike"?) The idea that someone can't be doping if they don't have a discernible "spike" in athletic ability is a gross fallacy.

Lam



stef -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (8/3/2005 9:27:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

If you're trying to imply that you're also right about Armstrong, then this is like a stopped clock patting itself on the back for being right twice a day.

If I was a stopped clock, I would take great offense at being compared to him. Shame on you.

~stef



stef -> RE: WATCH THE TEAM TIME TRIAL!! (8/3/2005 9:28:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Sfgrrl was taking the line that I can't be right about Armstrong because he hasn't failed a drug test.

You're mistaken, again. Imagine my surprise.

~stef



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