RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 8:04:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

So let's just do what the politically correct do, change the words. But to do this logically, we have to examine the facts. There can be no human race, there is no such thing. We are a species.



I agree with this, Termyn8or, but I would like to point out that there are racial separations within a species.

Take the example of the Killer Whale (Orcinus Orca) which is divided into two groups.  These groups consist of the Residents and the Wanderers.  Residents tend to live close to the coastline and feed almost exclusively on fish.  Wanderers tend to live in open ocean and feed on almost anything.

Where I am going with this is these two killer whales are genetically similar, and yet they do not interbreed.  I am not sure it has ever been scientifically tested to see if the egg of one will be fertilized with the sperm of the other.  I suspect they would.  Given a few millenia, there will be enough genetic difference between the two that they will be classified as different species.

It strikes me that those who pontificate about racial differences in the human species are dreaming that we have enough differences between humans that we qualify similarly.  This is not the case, however, we as a species do not have enough genetic variation between us that we cannot breed with each other.  Put people in hot climates and their skin darkens, they tend to clump their adipose tissue in certain parts of their body to allow insulation and more effective heat exchange out.  Put people in cold climates and they tend to become lighter skinned, etc.  The fact that human beings as a species have (and continue to) travelled and interbred all over the planet makes the concept of race rather ignorant.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy



kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 8:20:15 AM)

Sinergy, some argue that whilst the concept of 'race' is redundant biologically it is still an acceptable notion in anthropology, sociology and other humanities.




Sinergy -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 8:26:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Sinergy, some argue that whilst the concept of 'race' is redundant biologically it is still an acceptable notion in anthropology, sociology and other humanities.




I am not disputing this, kittenSol.

The point I am endeavoring to make is that it is a blurred division between people.  Interbreeding amonst people of different genotypes has been going on since antiquity.  Sociological, anthropological, etc., differences tend to focus on cultural differences.  As we become more in contact with people in other cultures, the differences blur and we become more homogenized as a species.

Sinergy



BlueCollar -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 8:30:55 AM)

I haven't been following the discussion, but I will respond to the original post and remark that there ARE 5 scientifically recognisable human sub-races.  They are Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, Capoid, and Australoid.



thornhappy -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 8:46:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar

I haven't been following the discussion, but I will respond to the original post and remark that there ARE 5 scientifically recognisable human sub-races.  They are Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, Capoid, and Australoid.


best that you go look at the first two pages...
thornhappy



kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 9:13:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar

I haven't been following the discussion, but I will respond to the original post and remark that there ARE 5 scientifically recognisable human sub-races.  They are Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, Capoid, and Australoid.


'Capoid' aye? Fascinating.



Lordandmaster -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 9:36:24 AM)

Hey, you left out android.



kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 9:48:39 AM)

Haaaaaaaaa... "Paranoid Android" is one of the last millenium's most gorgeous pop songs.

http://amnesty.magnify.net/item/5RB9PCNF4JP9NMQP

Not the best recording, but it is live, and rather moving, because it was an Amnesty International concert.



DomKen -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 10:32:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Why anyone who holds that the idea, yes one simple idea, underpinning Evoluton by Natural Selection is untrue should be deemed a creationist I do not know.

When it was established in the 1950's how complex, both in their structure and function, are the molecules that constitute life and how far back in time those molecules have existed it should have been admitted that the possibilty of life spontaneously arising and evolving  by chance mutations is so small as to be non existant.

What is the original driving force, I do not know. I am less astounded by the idea of some initiating motivator, ie a creator, than I am by Darwinism.

Just adding that Termyn8tr's post above is spot on IMO

Nice change of subject. I take it you concede all my previous points you've failed to respond to.

As to why I call you a creationist, could it be because I've read your previous posts and know that you are a creationist? You do in fact admit that in the post I quote above as well.

As to your claims that life is too complex to have evolved, do you have any evidence to back that up? Plant and animal cells are fairly complicated due to what appears to be the remains of symbiotic organisms, chloroplasts and mitochondria, but bacteria are substantially less complicated and the ones around today are the results of better than 500 million years of evolution so it is completely reasonable to extrapolate a much less complex and probably substantially less efficient unicellular organism that would be the most recent common ancestor of all life which would be substantially more evolved than the first life.



BlueCollar -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 11:13:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy
best that you go look at the first two pages...
thornhappy


That seems like a lot of work.

Fine!  I'll take a look at the stupid thread!  [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s2.gif[/image]



BlueCollar -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 11:28:45 AM)

Oh, and just to throw more fuel on the fire of debate, a recent anthropological theory is that homo sapien developed in mid-Asia as opposed to Africa.  The basis for this is that the Incan, Mayan, and other related civilisations in Central and South America are believed to be a lot older than we first assumed. and with the current African origin theories, the numbers involved with tribal migration to South America does not add up properly.  With modern humans starting out in Central Asia, we have a more believable pattern of migration across the globe.



farglebargle -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 11:32:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Sinergy, some argue that whilst the concept of 'race' is redundant biologically it is still an acceptable notion in anthropology, sociology and other humanities.




For those who choose to use it to obfuscate the essential Class basis of all struggle and conflict.



Level -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 11:36:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Haaaaaaaaa... "Paranoid Android" is one of the last millenium's most gorgeous pop songs.

http://amnesty.magnify.net/item/5RB9PCNF4JP9NMQP

Not the best recording, but it is live, and rather moving, because it was an Amnesty International concert.


My contribution to this thread:

Radiohead  Paranoid Android



CuriousLord -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 11:36:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

For those who choose to use it to obfuscate the essential Class basis of all struggle and conflict.


You really believe class to be the "basis of all struggle and conflict"?



farglebargle -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 11:40:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

For those who choose to use it to obfuscate the essential Class basis of all struggle and conflict.


You really believe class to be the "basis of all struggle and conflict"?


Pretty much. All of the other apparent struggles just conceal that one.

There's The Bosses, and then all of us niggers.

Everything else is The Bosses way of keeping us niggers down.

Illegal workers and LEGAL WORKERS have pretty much the same concerns. How to keep the kids fed, and healthy. Everything else is secondary.

Doesn't matter if you're in a migrant shack or a McMansion.




BlueCollar -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 12:17:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
For those who choose to use it to obfuscate the essential Class basis of all struggle and conflict.


Ohhh, good point.  And I totally agree with you on this.  While throughout human history there have been obvious social conflicts borne out of a primal "us" vs. "them" complex, in modern times it has been much more a issue of class division rather than racial division.



Zensee -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 12:56:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

For those who choose to use it to obfuscate the essential Class basis of all struggle and conflict.


You really believe class to be the "basis of all struggle and conflict"?


Pretty much. All of the other apparent struggles just conceal that one.



And that is largely enforced through language and symbolism. It relies on the notion that certain blood lines (ironically within a "race") are superior to others. Also ironically, this leads to genetic degradation within bloodlines of the aristocracy, culminating with the royal lines which can become so inbred that they are especially at risk for genetic based diseases.

Of course the ancestors of the aristocracy weren't born to it, they simply took the title, by force, and sustained it through mythologies of entitlement. We are hard wired to form social hierarchies and it seems natural to us that the universe is also arranged that way, with god at the top, his chosen people (races or classes) followed by the peasants. The emergence of the middle class was a far worse threat to the aristocracy than any peasant rebellion.

We don't easily question the language of the "natural order" - we feel its rightness. This is why we need to be mindful of the language which sustains our ideas about race and class.



Z.



BlueCollar -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 1:05:58 PM)

Well, I see what you and a few others are saying Zensee, but let's also make it clear that some races do have distinct physical or mental advantages over others, and that's not neccesarily a bad thing. 

For example, Negroids tend to have more efficient respiratory systems than Caucasians or Eastern Asians and are, more often than not, better long distance runners as a result.  Eastern Asians tend to have more dominant Math Logic Genes in their DNA, which many are linked to their ability to problem solve quicker than others.  



MsBearlee -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 1:14:40 PM)

 

ROFLMAO   Okay, I spewed lemonaid; it feels yucky comin' outta one's nose!!!



seeksfemslave -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/4/2007 2:09:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar
Well, I see what you and a few others are saying Zensee, but let's also make it clear that some races do have distinct physical or mental advantages over others, and that's not neccesarily a bad thing. 

For example, Negroids tend to have more efficient respiratory systems than Caucasians or Eastern Asians and are, more often than not, better long distance runners as a result.  Eastern Asians tend to have more dominant Math Logic Genes in their DNA, which many are linked to their ability to problem solve quicker than others.  


Dont say that you will upset those who have eyes,wont look, but will spew out
"hi falutin" technical definitions masquerading as scientific knowledge or more importantly understanding of the inner recesses of nature.



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