RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity.

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 11:04:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I'm typically the first to advise one asking about computers that brand is a very minor consideration before what it actually has in it. I'm not silly enough to deny the fact brands exist, though. that's actually a rather apropos analogy, but regardless of brand (which would be akin to phenotype in humans).. aren't they still all computers? sure a few have different features and software etc, but fundamentally they're all computers. the differences between the "brands" aren't significant enough to call different computer brands by a another name. it doesn't suddenly morph into another creature just because it's a different brand of computer. it's still a computer. Yup. My point is that they do exist, but I'm not claiming them to the major point of consideration in human interactions.

seeksfemslave -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 11:06:16 AM)
quote: EbonyFG most people are phenotypically grouped into one race but genetically would be grouped in a whole other race. If that's true I'll eat my hat, then I will be in big trouble. Incidently how close is close when speaking of genotypes across the racial divides. 98%, is that close enough ? Careful now, leading question lol

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 11:47:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: EbonyFG most people are phenotypically grouped into one race but genetically would be grouped in a whole other race. If that's true I'll eat my hat, then I will be in big trouble. Incidently how close is close when speaking of genotypes across the racial divides. 98%, is that close enough ? Careful now, leading question lol indeed it is true. my nephew is as white as they come. i mean blonde/blue and all that good stuff. phenotypically (purely goin off looks) no one would suspect his mother is black/cuban/irish or that his father is black/english but those two gene pools came together and made someone as white as snow. phenotypically he looks 100% white, but genetically he's probably a mishmash. as far as the actual percentage of variation, that's hard to quantify because of the difficulty in determining human populations and then having to subsequently dividing them along racial lines or clinal natures of variations. if i remember correctly, it's something like a differences of like 5-15% between groups living on the various continents across the globe. even with that being said, most of the greatest genetic variations occur within the actual groups that we consider to be the same "race." to answer your question (whether it was a rhetorical question or not) would be hard to do because then i'd have to get into linkage, linkage disequilibrium, genetic drift etc. and that's just too "hi falutin" for discussion here.

Alumbrado -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 1:24:17 PM)
Chirp.....chirp.....chirp.....

DesertRat -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 1:39:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Which, despite how you may feel about the lack of usage of such divisions, does not mean that they do not exist. Sure, differences exist in human populations. The concept of race is of very limited utility in dealing with those differences. It's handy in a conversational sense, but not as an analytical tool. Sorry if I tweaked your beak. I just wanted to present the anthropological view of the issue. Yes...you're right...I am defaulting to the scientific definition...or lack of one. Bob

Alumbrado -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 1:41:13 PM)
Without bothering to answer the previous questions that shoot down your bigoted statements, apparently.

DesertRat -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 2:03:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Without bothering to answer the previous questions that shoot down your bigoted statements, apparently. Ah, you noticed. No, I didn't bother to answer them because they're specious. I also don't bother to debate Creationists or Jehovah's Witnesses. I guess I'm a good example of the "bigotry" of science. [8\|] Bob

seeksfemslave -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 3:13:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: EbonyFG most people are phenotypically grouped into one race but genetically would be grouped in a whole other race. If that's true I'll eat my hat, then I will be in big trouble. Incidently how close is close when speaking of genotypes across the racial divides. 98%, is that close enough ?Careful now, leading question lol indeed it is true. my nephew is as white as they come. i mean blonde/blue and all that good stuff. phenotypically (purely goin off looks) no one would suspect his mother is black/cuban/irish or that his father is black/english if i remember correctly, it's something like a differences of like 5-15% between groups living on the various continents across the globe. even with that being said, most of the greatest genetic variations occur within the actual groups that we consider to be the same "race. Your nephew does not equal "most people" Your estimate then is greater than the currently accepted difference between humans and chimpanzees. Surely you would not claim that that ethical/ cultural/racial/behavioural differences do not exist between humans and chimps . Would you ?

Alumbrado -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 3:27:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertRat quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Without bothering to answer the previous questions that shoot down your bigoted statements, apparently. Ah, you noticed. No, I didn't bother to answer them because they're specious. I also don't bother to debate Creationists or Jehovah's Witnesses. I guess I'm a good example of the "bigotry" of science. [8\|] Bob Garden variety bigot, I would say, and intellectually dishonest as they come. Stop slandering the name of science by pasting it on to your superstitious worship of ignorance. You didn't bother to read the link to the university anthropology department listing course offerings on race, or the questions about why medicine, econometrics,sociology etc. aren't science, because you cannot answer the questions without resorting to strawman deception.

DesertRat -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 4:31:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado You didn't bother to read the link to the university anthropology department listing course offerings on race, or the questions about why medicine, econometrics,sociology etc. aren't science, because you cannot answer the questions without resorting to strawman deception. A university anthropology course on the subject of race will say the same thing I'm saying but with alot less snideness...if it's a good department. As for the fields of medicine, sociology, and etcetera (whatever that is), if one digs deep enough, one will find qualifiers and disclaimers cautioning against generalizations based solely on normative "racial" traits. But, gee, your studiously researched namecalling has me almost convinced. Maybe my colleagues and I should relax, cruise, and go back to using ideas from 50 years ago, when things were so much simpler. Excuse me while I go measure some skulls. Bob

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 4:54:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Your nephew does not equal "most people" i did not say my nephew represented most people.. nor did i infer that, so please.. devote your time to actually refuting things i've said rather than inferring about that which i have not. although my nephew represents one possible phenotypical outcome, he is by no means the only one. nor is he rare. there are a lot of people walking around in the world today of various races who genotypically would be classified in a totally different group if we went along genotypical lines. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Your estimate then is greater than the currently accepted difference between humans and chimpanzees. Surely you would not claim that that ethical/ cultural/racial/behavioural differences do not exist between humans and chimps . Would you ? who knows?.. maybe chimps are a different race of humans...lol that holds about the same amount of water as everything else you've espoused so far. if you take a blood sample, can you tell the race of someone merely from that blood specimin? if you took a sample of dog blood, you'd know it was dog blood. if you take a sample of human blood, it's just human blood. so like i said, should race be determined by genotyping? or phenotyping? as far as your question about chimp vs humans etc. we share something like 98% of our DNA with some primate groups. the variations betwixt human populations are largely phenotypical variations dear.. NOT only genotypical variations. and as i've said before.. the greatest variations (about like 84 or 85%) are found WITHIN the different races themselves.

kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 5:00:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertRat Maybe my colleagues and I should relax, cruise, and go back to using ideas from 50 years ago, when things were so much simpler. Excuse me while I go measure some skulls. Bob [:D][:D][:D]

kittinSol -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 5:21:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Hi kittinSol........ You are correct in as much that the theory is we all evolved from one source. Race though, and the concept of it, doesn`t go back that far. As you say it is a modern construct, so surely we can only look at the term in that context. The English race and French race don`t consider themselves the same, not based on colour or dna but on culture and history, even though much of it is intertwined. Hi - the French and the English aren't two different races; I can vouch for this from a highly personal level.

DomKen -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 9:25:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I'm rather sure darker skinned people tending to have ancestry from Africia, while paler skinned people tending to have ancestry from Europe, is rather common knowledge. Then again, I could be mistaken. Are you a basque or a celt? Do you consider yourself to be 'white'? If you answered no and yes you're from central Asia. The germanic tribes that virtually all non celtic and non basque europeans are descended from migrated out of central Asia during recorded history. So much for common knowledge. Of course if you're not European and not germanic you could be an Ainu from Japan. Who are also 'white'. As to 'blacks' being from Africa, ever seen an Indigenous Australian?

CuriousLord -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 9:44:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I'm rather sure darker skinned people tending to have ancestry from Africia, while paler skinned people tending to have ancestry from Europe, is rather common knowledge. Then again, I could be mistaken. Are you a basque or a celt? Do you consider yourself to be 'white'? If you answered no and yes you're from central Asia. The germanic tribes that virtually all non celtic and non basque europeans are descended from migrated out of central Asia during recorded history. So much for common knowledge. Of course if you're not European and not germanic you could be an Ainu from Japan. Who are also 'white'. As to 'blacks' being from Africa, ever seen an Indigenous Australian? While I can appreciate the extraneous detail as to the source locations of skin pigmentation, my point cited vague locations as to show only that the two were related, as you have gone out of your way to empathesize.

marieToo -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/5/2007 10:01:00 PM)
Ok.....Heres the good news for all you freaks popping a blood vessel for the third day in a row, over whether or not the word race is accurate: If there is no such thing as 'races' in humanity, that means that there cant possibly be such a thing as racism, racial slurs, or racists anymore. Ain't it fucking great?

Politesub53 -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 1:32:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Hi kittinSol........ You are correct in as much that the theory is we all evolved from one source. Race though, and the concept of it, doesn`t go back that far. As you say it is a modern construct, so surely we can only look at the term in that context. The English race and French race don`t consider themselves the same, not based on colour or dna but on culture and history, even though much of it is intertwined. Hi - the French and the English aren't two different races; I can vouch for this from a highly personal level. Hi again...We will have to differ then. i am English and dont see the connection that you mention. Even if the Normans did conquer England, the main influence is still Germanic due to the Angles and the Saxons who preceded them. The Romans and Vikings and Celts also had some influence so i know we are a mishmash though. [;)]

BlueCollar -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 3:09:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess indeed it is true. my nephew is as white as they come. i mean blonde/blue and all that good stuff. phenotypically (purely goin off looks) no one would suspect his mother is black/cuban/irish or that his father is black/english but those two gene pools came together and made someone as white as snow. phenotypically he looks 100% white, but genetically he's probably a mishmash. as far as the actual percentage of variation, that's hard to quantify because of the difficulty in determining human populations and then having to subsequently dividing them along racial lines or clinal natures of variations. if i remember correctly, it's something like a differences of like 5-15% between groups living on the various continents across the globe. even with that being said, most of the greatest genetic variations occur within the actual groups that we consider to be the same "race." to answer your question (whether it was a rhetorical question or not) would be hard to do because then i'd have to get into linkage, linkage disequilibrium, genetic drift etc. and that's just too "hi falutin" for discussion here. Okay, I sorta see what you're saying. I do have a question in relation to all this. If we were to take a look at the domesticated cat, there are obviously different species within the genus (am I using the right terminlogy here?) that can readily mate with each other and create a genetically mixed cross-breed. If we can have different and recognisable "breeds" of cats, would we not be able to apply the same to humans?

seeksfemslave -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 3:09:47 AM)
quote: MsEbonyFG if you take a blood sample, can you tell the race of someone merely from that blood specimen? if you took a sample of dog blood, you'd know it was dog blood. if you take a sample of human blood, it's just human blood. However, if you observe human body types, behaviour patterns, cultural and political structures and organisation and quantify those things statistically then you find differences and those differences have been laballed.....racial.NO? The fact that as much genetic variation exists within one race as compared to another only shows that such genetic classification is not accurate enough to be used as a marker. Other factors must be involved. or very small well distributed differences in the genotype account for the visible racial variation.

Rule -> RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. (8/6/2007 4:02:20 AM)
Fast reply: Biologists have no use for vague concepts like race or breeds. Instead they prefer to refer to groups that meet certain criteria as populations. The genetic and phenotypical variation between populations is determined primarily by environmental selective pressures. Skin pigmentation is mostly a function of the distance from the equator. At the higher latitudes the benefit from vitamin D production outweighs the hazard of ultraviolet radiation, hence at higher latitudes the skin has less pigmentation - except in those areas where meat and fish provide an alternate source of vitamin D, thus the Inuit that live near the north pole have pigmented skins. The epicanthic fold protects the tear ducts from frost. Blue eyes may be an adaptation to snow fields or short days. The shape of the body and its features usually is determined by the heat, cold or dryness that a population evolved in. I have noticed that populations from mountainous regions often have short legs, presumably because they are less likely to break, but possibly also as a protection from the mountain cold.

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