RE: Hitler as a Leader (Full Version)

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Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 7:29:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonAngel

The problem with democracy is that essentially you have no choice.America has a two party system and most people will vote the same way they always have, regardless.


Clearly, if you are are far on the margin - if you are not middle of the road, the US two-party system sucks. If you are a hard core partisan, or have a minority pet isue as your main issue, you will always be upset by the US two party system, which is designed to foster compromise.

DA, the system is designed to shut out people like you, but make 90 other people satisfied. I will be the first to admit that is not a perfect system. A system that meets 90 peoples needs very well and leaves 10 pretty cranky people could be improved.

However, it is by far the most succesful political system to date, displacing every other system until the US two-party variant, the most refined of the democratic variants*, is the world's sole superpower. There may be a superior iteration of democracy, or a new political system in the future that will displace the US two party system by pleasing the last 10% of the electorate. Be interestin to see.

Until then, here is an explanation of why the US two-party syetm has been the most succesful political system to date: http://www.collarchat.com/m_118146/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#118146




*the Westminster system, a wonderful innovation when it was first introduced is now something of a dinosaur, having slowly lost ground to the superior US two-party variant. The British Empire that once ruled the world is now a junior ally to the nation with a superior (more succesful) variant of democracy.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/1/2005 7:49:44 PM)

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it so.

Edited to add (in response to your post above): The current system hardly pleases 90% of the electorate. I think it's a major failure of our democracy that the range of "available choices" is so narrow. Ordinary people have no chance of being elected--even if they were interested in serving. And that's not because we have a two-party system; it's because we have a corrupt two-party system. A better democracy would offer more nearly equal political opportunities to all its citizens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

Not "democracy makes leaders good," but "democracy picks the best of the avilable choices."





DemonAngel -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 12:30:21 PM)

quote:

DA, the system is designed to shut out people like you, but make 90 other people satisfied.


People like me?How do you deduct from my single post that i conform to your idea of the 10%?Just because i look at demoncracy with open eyes,doesn't make me against democracy nor does i making me blind to the fact that democracy isn't as perfect as you see it.You don't know which side of the line i stand, nor how far the distance I may be away from it.
You say that with democracy, 90% of the population are happy.However, that is a miscalculation.If 10 %are marginalized, then only around 50% of the people can be happy as those voting for the losing side will not be exactly 'gleeful' by being governed by the person they tried to vote out.This total would be even less, where the election is rigged, where the person with the least votes wins!(Again bush/gore)An old ideal of kingship was that the king lived to serve his people - bring back the feudal system!
With any system of government, the people who crawl to the top, are invariably those who are hungry for power.This is no different in a democracy to a dictatorship.Once there,they tend to use their power for their own benifit and that of their friends and supporters.If governmentconsisted of those who truely cared about the people and the world, then you would have fair government.
The two party system makes it less likely that vital inititives play a part in a democratic process ie kyoto where marginal parties are involved in any political process their message sometimes breaks through to the conciousness of the electorate, meaning that the major parties are forced to respond.The USA 'superiority' is purely down to its size and the British empire was broken apart by the Uk in realisation that this 'forced' governence of those people was not benifical to the individual countries Re: the rise of India in recent times, and the strengthening of China since HongKongs 'release'.

Demon




fillepink -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 12:56:34 PM)

Faramir; and anyone else who wants to shield their bigotry with psuedo-intelluctual crap.....o i cannot begin to tell you how i detest you ...i simply CANNOT abide bigots. My consolation is i know it is a motal sin and all of you had better mend your ways..or your afterlife will not be pleasant.

i am so f**king angry. What makes people like Faramir tick?

fillepink

[image]local://upfiles/72910/B8CBE07333E647AC9B9EF97AE729BA21.jpg[/image]




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 1:14:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonAngel

People like me?How do you deduct from my single post that i conform to your idea of the 10%? Just because i look at demoncracy with open eyes,doesn't make me against democracy nor does i making me blind to the fact that democracy isn't as perfect as you see it.



I beg your pardon - I didn't mean that as a fling or insult. I meant more like "those people who percieve there to be no choice."

You said something interesting:

quote:

You say that with democracy, 90% of the population are happy.However, that is a miscalculation.If 10 %are marginalized, then only around 50% of the people can be happy as those voting for the losing side will not be exactly 'gleeful' by being governed by the person they tried to vote out.


If the electorate were split into partian camps, that would be very true, however, only a very small minority of the American electorate is partisan. In the 26 states (plus DC) with partisan registration, Democratic registrations declined from 44% in 1966 to 31.5% in 1994. The Republicans had a decline over the same span from 25% to 23%, while independents increased from 4% to 12%. Maine is now split 1/3rd between ind, dem and republican.

Most people aren't hardcore redistributionists or growth-oriented. Most people want and need both, and so they are very happy with the system. The US EC forces each party to compromise, pleasing the majority, and leaving the bitter, marginal ends to cry about how their party has lost it's principles.

I find it hilarious, dramatic irony [:D]




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 1:21:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fillepink

Faramir; and anyone else who wants to shield their bigotry with psuedo-intelluctual crap.....o i cannot begin to tell you how i detest you ...i simply CANNOT abide bigots. My consolation is i know it is a motal sin and all of you had better mend your ways..or your afterlife will not be pleasant.

i am so f**king angry. What makes people like Faramir tick?

fillepink

[image]local://upfiles/72910/B8CBE07333E647AC9B9EF97AE729BA21.jpg[/image]

Bigotry?

Are you sure you know what the word means? I certainly haven't said anything that could be vaguely construed as bigotted - not by any common denotion of the word.

Did you actually read a single word in the thread - or did you just see the title and make a spastic, knee-jerk post? You might consider reading before speaking.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 2:40:54 PM)

I guess Faramir must have put me on Ignore, because he's making a point of not responding to anything I say.




fillepink -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 3:02:29 PM)

yeah; i read it. same as i read the KKK literature left on my car after my kid's middle school got it's first black principal. Faramir..you may be pleased to know, you write better than the good old boys down south. But s**t smells the same, by any name.

fillepink

[image]local://upfiles/72910/605CB7F088A94D819BD439BDF3D6C783.jpg[/image]




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 3:35:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fillepink

yeah; i read it.

[image]local://upfiles/72910/605CB7F088A94D819BD439BDF3D6C783.jpg[/image]


Bullshit - you're lying. No one has that bad reading comp skills. You read the title, posted/spasmed, and now don't have the guts to admit it.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 7:19:16 PM)

Jesus, Faramir, I didn't realize you were born with the gift to read other people's minds.




perverseangelic -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 8:14:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
Not "democracy makes leaders good," but "democracy picks the best of the avilable choices."


I don't think that democracy does that.

It picks the person that the most people want. That says nothing, IMHO about whether or not they are "best." While I like the democratic process, I don't think that it necesarially picks the -best- of the candidates. It just picks the one the people like best. To use a way simple analogy--most people like candy better than spinach. Doesn't make it "best" for the body.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 8:24:05 PM)

GMTA:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_115416/mpage_10/key_/tm.htm#118057




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 8:55:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
Not "democracy makes leaders good," but "democracy picks the best of the avilable choices."


I don't think that democracy does that.

It picks the person that the most people want. That says nothing, IMHO about whether or not they are "best."


Ok - fair enough. Why is democracy so effective then? If democracies make random (or bad choices) why don't democracies fail? Why has democracy systematically displaced every other poitical model?

Why would a shitty system win in all head to head competition throughout history?




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 8:57:42 PM)

-The purpose of political leadership is to find creative solutions to the disparate, often contradictory needs of the electorate.

-The electorate knows what it wants, and is wise in a collective sense, because each individual knows their own tastes, and thus the aggregate decision of the electorate (in an election for example) represents the aggregate tastes of, and what every members wants, needs, fears and hopes. No matter how foolish or wise the individual members of the electorate are, in the aggregate the decision electorate reflects everyone’s voice, because even not voting is a choice. Thus every election result is “right.” The electorate, because it has access to everyone’s input, always makes the best choice, that is to say, the best of the available choices. The electorate is wise in the aggregate.

-Media cannot change people’s tastes – only advertise the menu. No matter how persuasive, how educated, how many charts and Harvard studies produced, no matter how uniform the pronouncements of editorial pages and nightly news shows, you can never convince a guy who likes steaks that he really likes fish instead.

There is immense bias in the media – and it is irrelevant, because the media’s only impact is on advertising the menu. The media cannot convince me I like fish instead of chicken. What it can do is advertise the menu enough for me to realize that candidate “A” is hawk and candidate “B” is dove and dove is closer to chicken than hawk. One candidate is marginally superior in this case because they are not what I want, but closer than the other candidate.

-There are two main imperatives within the electorate, each aimed at meeting the primary need of the electorate*: to produce and save against the vagaries of the planet. Everything else is secondary to the desire to ensure oneself and family are safe and can eat. The impulses are Redistribution and Growth. The electorate has a need to redistribute wealth and power to ease social tensions – great disparities in wealth and power, as well as the suffering of any portion of the electorate, awaken a need to share that is both a social/civil palliative, and reflects an understanding that “we are all in it together.” The electorate also needs growth, needs to allow individuals to take risk and allow for individual achievement and success. the impulse to redistribute and the impulse to allow personal risk taking and growth both help the electorate produce and save.

-These two impulses find their expression in the US, in the two party system in a “Mommy” party and a “Daddy” party. The Democratic Party is America’s "Mommy Party", concerned with the collective security of all of the members of society. The Republican Party is the “Daddy” Party, primarily concerned with risk-taking and individual opportunity and advancement. Thus each party is indispensable – a political Yin and Yang that is only whole and healthy when both imperatives are served. Political success can only be achieved by meeting both imperatives. Political system that allows individual success and risk taking, with no safety net of redistribution escalate in social tension (think of the Russian and French Revolutions). Political systems that do not allow individuals to succeed and pursue wealth have no production to redistribute – think of America in the 70’s or the failure of the Soviet experiment.

-These two imperatives embodied in two parties fosters compromise. Political leaders need to be able to come up with compromise policies that meet many needs, symbolized by compromise on the two main imperatives. The “best” political leader is the one who can allow for growth, while also meeting the redistributive impulse. Thus a Reagan, superior at growth, and at least moderate in redistribution, was superior to a Carter as a political leadership choice. A Clinton, superior at redistribution and growth could trounce a GH Bush and Dole.

Further, the US winner-take-all electoral college fosters even more compromise. Jude Wanniski:




quote:

“I've argued for several years that the EC is one of the chief reasons our government has lasted as long as it has and is now the only superpower. By forcing winner-take-all, permanent third parties cannot take root, because it is to the advantage of all interests groups to align with one party or the other in the presidential and the congressional races. I've compared it to the basic family unit, where there is two-party leadership in the husband and wife, father and mother. They must compose their differences before making family decisions and it is frequently the case that when the interests of the children are taken into consideration, the majority of the family members will "vote" in favor of the minority. Because of the EC, the United States is the only nation in the world with a two-party system that on the surface may seem to be more turbulent that those nations with many parties, but we finally do come to a conclusion every two and four years. In most of the rest of the world, it is only after the elections are held that coalitions are pieced together to manage the country.”



-All change takes place at the margin. A feather is nothing when we speak of thousand pound weights, but if you have a scale with a thousand pounds on each side, a featherweight, though miniscule in comparison, can tip the issue to one side. A given policy proposal or candidate does not need to be “good” or perfect to win – just marginally superior to the alternative. When you look at a candidate who won an election and you are just furious - how could that idiot have been elected! - look for the tiny, marginal difference that tipped the scales.


*There are of course other issues and imperatives – I am addressing the two most basic ones. I acknowledge that there are other things people care about – after they know they and their kids can eat.




perverseangelic -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 9:15:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
Ok - fair enough. Why is democracy so effective then? If democracies make random (or bad choices) why don't democracies fail? Why has democracy systematically displaced every other poitical model?

Why would a shitty system win in all head to head competition throughout history?


Because it is doing what the people want, nominally.

I didn't say that democracy is a bad system. I said that it doesn't always pick the best leader. It picks the best liked leader.

I'm not sure how you got "democracy is a shitty system" from what I said. I am rather a fan of it. However, I'm not so naieve as to believe that simply because someone is elected he/she is the best person of the people running to head the country.

Working from my political standpoint--I would say that our current president was probably a pretty bad choice to run the country. I think that he's making very poor decitions. However, the people of this country liked him best, so he was elected. Being most popular doesn't mean you make the best decitions.

To use another stupid analogy--at my high school, you got elected to student council by having a whole bunch of friends. Someone who was smart, well organized, and a good leader could run for office, but would not be elected because someone who had a lot of friends ran against him. I see democracy the same way. Someone might get electd because he/she has a good pr campain. Or because he/she looks best on television. There are a -lot- of factors which go into being elected, and while competence is one of them, I'd assert it's not one of the top ones.

Also, because someone is elected doesn't mean that everyone will think his/her decitions are good. Again, take this president. Many, many people think that the choices he is making for our country will be devastating politically, economically, enviormentally, etc. They didn't stop thinking that because he got elected. Nor did they stop thinking thatsomeone else would have made a better leader. In fact, elections as close as our recent ones have been should illustrate even more clearly that we're picking the most popular, or the one supported by our policital party, not the person who will be the "best"

That doesn't mean I think the system is bad. I have problems with the 2 party system we have, but I like the general idea of democracy. I think that people need to be alloewd to choose their leaders, however, to think that people will always choose the best leader isn't true. People choose lots of things that are bad for them, up to and including their leaders.




Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 9:35:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
People choose lots of things that are bad for them, up to and including their leaders.


Without doubt - in no way am I proposing Individuals are wise. My pint is not that every person is smart or makes good choices - but rather that the aggregate, by taking into account everyone's values and needs, is wise.

Seriously though - I hear you saying that you don't dislike or hate democracy. Rock on - but what mchanism do you see? If democracy doesn't function the way I have described - if the electorate in the aggregate doesn't choose wisely - how come democracy does so well? Can you propose an alternate model?




MrThorns -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 9:49:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir


quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
Not "democracy makes leaders good," but "democracy picks the best of the avilable choices."


I don't think that democracy does that.

It picks the person that the most people want. That says nothing, IMHO about whether or not they are "best."


Ok - fair enough. Why is democracy so effective then? If democracies make random (or bad choices) why don't democracies fail? Why has democracy systematically displaced every other poitical model?

Why would a shitty system win in all head to head competition throughout history?



Democracy hasn't displaced every other political model. Again, I will use China as an example. Imperialism existed from roughly 2000 BC until 1911 AD. Power changed hands roughly every 200-300 years in the form of another Dynasty (With the exception of the Shang Dynasty, which held power for 700 years.) There has not been a democratic government that can make the same claim of stability.

So now, since the communists took power in 1911, and especially now that the Chinese are incorperating capitalism with socialism... I don't see their government crashing down anytime soon.

You say that democracies don't fail. What is your standard for failure or success? That there hasn't been a sucessful coup? That civil war hasn't erupted?

Why does democracy pop up everywhere? Subversion. How many countries, in the last 100 years, have converted their government to democracy without assistance or pressures from outside sources?

I believe democracy, as it is today, is simply an illusion.

~Thorns





Faramir -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 10:36:51 PM)

MT - I meant globally - not a specific nationstate.

A thousand years ago there was one restricted democracy in the whole world - with extrenely limited suffrage.

500-400 years ago we see the formation of proto-democracies in Western Europe.

200 years ago "Liberal Democracy" becomes a clashing force with aristocracies and monorachy.

100 years ago monarchy dies and is displaced by democracy - the death throes of monarchy are called WWI.

The last century has seen a grand competition between collectivist states and democracy - democracy won.

Now in the 21st century we have 120 liberal democracies with universal suffrage, amd 16 restricted democracies - 71% of the world's nations are now democracies. So when I say that democracy has displaced other political systems, I mean that over time, other competing systems like monarchy nd collectivism went head to with democracy in competition and were displaced.

However, China is a wonderful example. One of the most draconian collectivist states in the world has slowly reformed, and is now in a proto-democracy form. Compare China today with China of Mao - the nation of "The Great leap Forward" by 1980 has "Special Economic Zones." The China of Mao Zedong was absolutlely a despotic collectivism - the China of Hu Jianto is a proto-democracy - the state must now listen to the people.

As to your second question, my standard for success is: adoption be electorates.

Since the number of monarchies has declined from several hundred to zero - I conclude it hasn't been too succesful as a political system. I see a trend.

Since the number of liberal democracies with universal suffrage has increased from 0 in 1900 to 120 - I clall it succesful. Again - a trend.

When you say "illusion," you are asking me to discount real world history and current reality in favor of the idea of a...what? What illusion? There are secret illuminati that run the world? We have hidden alien space masters?

Just saying "illusion" - ie "I don't belive it" without any supporting arguements isn't persuasive.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/2/2005 11:14:49 PM)

The Communists took power in 1949, not 1911. Otherwise, I agree with everything you wrote. For Faramir to say that China today is a "proto-democracy" shows an utter lack of familiarity with the country.

I also don't follow Faramir's leap from "democracies have been successful" to "democracies always pick the best available candidates." What's more interesting, and more complicated, is how democracies have been successful even when they have NOT picked the best candidates. But I have to say that the future of democracy is not looking very bright these days. To quote Tony Judt:

quote:

For there is a precedent in modern Western history for a country whose leader exploits national humiliation and fear to restrict public freedoms; for a government that makes permanent war as a tool of state policy and arranges for the torture of its political enemies; for a ruling class that pursues divisive social goals under the guise of national "values"; for a culture that asserts its unique destiny and superiority and that worships military prowess; for a political system in which the dominant party manipulates procedural rules and threatens to change the law in order to get its own way; where journalists are intimidated into confessing their errors and made to do public penance. Europeans in particular have experienced such a regime in the recent past and they have a word for it. That word is not "democracy."


That's from http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18113

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

So now, since the communists took power in 1911, and especially now that the Chinese are incorperating capitalism with socialism... I don't see their government crashing down anytime soon.





MrThorns -> RE: Hitler as a Leader (7/3/2005 1:11:23 AM)

quote:


The Communists took power in 1949, not 1911


Ack...you're right. There was a revolution in 1911 which ousted the Imperial government and established....a democratic republic...(of sorts) which was first recognized by the United States on April 5, 1912....but then fell to the communists in 1949. (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MODCHINA/REV.HTM)

quote:


When you say "illusion," you are asking me to discount real world history and current reality in favor of the idea of a...what? What illusion? There are secret illuminati that run the world? We have hidden alien space masters? Just saying "illusion" - ie "I don't belive it" without any supporting arguements isn't persuasive.



I'm not claiming any such conspiracy theory, nor am I asking you to discount history. But you seem to be saying that because democracy has taken root in several countries around the world, makes it sucessful. For virtually every democracy that is created, one is overthrown. (35 created between 1918 and 1994....31 overthrown between 1923 and 1999) http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/govt2000.htm

There are slightly more democratic governments than there are autocratic governments. (And I am including countries such as Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Iran into those "Democratic" countries) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

The illusion is that people who live in a democracy, believe that their collective voices will be heard. But we are in a 2 party system with 51% taking the majority vote (for 2 elections in a row) and with the huge difference in value systems between the two parties, the system is in no way inspiring compromise or bipartisanship. Now add in special interest organizations who funded the campaigns, political pressures, and the volitile nature of the world around us...and tell me that the democratic government is working in the interests of the majority.

(Gads its getting late..)

~Thorns








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