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RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 5:40:24 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

cybedude,

I am, indeed, grateful that you have demonstrated a key point. It is the unwillingness to understand the people in question, by the average joe, that has allowed BushCo to tug at exactly the right strings, to maintain their power for their own benefit. As long as enough people answer the question with 'bomb em all' enough people will continue being bombed. As long as bombs are dropping, bombs are being built, bought, and shipped. The simple, but correct answer here, is if we want to stop seeing bombs fall, we have to stop dropping them. Period.

The rest is simply in the details, and a lot more patience and foresight than you clearly possess.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 21

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 5:41:50 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

If the fundamentalists in Islam is such a small minority....then why is it that these "peaceful" muslims seem to go quiet whenever these attacks take place? I dont see the "peaceful" muslims defending their "peaceful" faith. They instead are silent. And the only time they actually say something is when you bash their religion.

'Can only speak for England. They don't go quiet. The Muslim Council of Britain are all over the media expressing how the terrorists do not represent them, and how there is no excuse (including the foreign policy of the British government). There are, of course, a small minority of muslim religious zealots in this country who are intent on causing mayhem, but how could it be any other way considering the religious dogma at the heart of Islam. The same applies to Christianity in other parts of the world......fortunately, we're secularised as a nation, so, as a rule, we don't tend to have the other side of the coin (Tony Blair being the exception with his superior notions of liberal democracy and freedom, which include enslaving people in their own country).

I'm fairly confident you had this same charade 20 years ago, with Nicaragua, when your television screens provided the details of an impending attack from a communist force, including details of how, where and when and a message from the president, when, in fact, the Sandinistas were a rag-tag, feeble lot opposed to the US foreign policy of creating economic systems favourable to the US.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 22

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 6:13:11 AM

SuzanneKneeling

Posts: 233
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

Gent, unfortunately we have a similar situation today. Large swaths of the intellectual wastelands of our country sincerely think that the Iraqi insurgency has a grand plan to invade the midwest US and install an Islamic caliphate, force their kids to bow to Mecca, and the whole lot. Our Misleader has taken every chance to drill into their docile heads that we are "fighting the terrorists there so that we do not have to fight them here". Only 5 to 10% of the insurgency is composed of AQ-like foreign fighters, but thanks to our war-dependent media nobody here knows that.

Needless to say I read the foreign press online as much as possible. We have no independent journalism here.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 23

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 6:15:15 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Well , if they were to invade the midwest then they could do the custom combining that the irish can no longer do, so it would be beneficial to us to have that occur.

There is always a silver lining

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)

Post #: 24

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 7:17:50 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

The mind boggles, Suzanne....where's the self-confidence with these people. I appreciate that people are activated by fear, but they must be living in a permanent state of paranoia frenzy. We have a version here, along the lines of English muslims plotting to install Sharia law....and, of course, the people of this secularised nation steeped in the liberal tradition are simply crying out to live a life of religious servitude as a prelude to being stoned to death.

As luck would have it, I'm running a sweep on future constituents of the axis of evil......20 years ago it was Nicaragua, the USSR and Iran (I think)...today it's North Korea, Iraq and Iran (I think)....20 years time.....

China: 1/30 (reds under the bed/s).
Venezuala: 2/1 (more reds)
Wales 5/1 (they have wool in age where climate volatility is over the horizon).
England 8/1 (government debt from WW1)
Canada 10/1 (logistics advantage)
Saudi 10,000,000/1 (anti-Americans bearing gifts)

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)

Post #: 25

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 7:27:00 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzanneKneeling

Gent, unfortunately we have a similar situation today. Large swaths of the intellectual wastelands of our country sincerely think that the Iraqi insurgency has a grand plan to invade the midwest US and install an Islamic caliphate, force their kids to bow to Mecca, and the whole lot. Our Misleader has taken every chance to drill into their docile heads that we are "fighting the terrorists there so that we do not have to fight them here". Only 5 to 10% of the insurgency is composed of AQ-like foreign fighters, but thanks to our war-dependent media nobody here knows that.

Needless to say I read the foreign press online as much as possible. We have no independent journalism here.

"Fighting them over here" refers to dealing with terrorists acts that could occur here. Of course, that doesn't serve hyperbole.....

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)

Post #: 26

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 7:36:16 AM

BlueCollar

Posts: 74
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline

I wonder how the multitude of Muslims loyally serving in the armed forces and security services of the United States feel about such blanket statements regarding the wholesale distruction of their most holiest of sites. Incidently, Mecca is in Saudi Arabia - one of the few remaining American allies in the middle-east.

Somehow, people are always forgetting things like that.

< Message edited by BlueCollar -- 8/4/2007 7:44:07 AM >

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 27

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 8:04:05 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar

I wonder how the multitude of Muslims loyally serving in the armed forces and security services of the United States feel about such blanket statements regarding the wholesale distruction of their most holiest of sites. Incidently, Mecca is in Saudi Arabia - one of the few remaining American allies in the middle-east.

Somehow, people are always forgetting things like that.

If you think Saudi Arabia are the US's ALLIES, you need to go back to school.

Saudi Arabia was the REASON for 9/11.

Bin Ladin wanted Bush to pull US troops from his homeland, SAUDI ARABIA.

Bin Ladin pulled off 9/11.

Bush withdrew US Troops from Bin Ladin's homeland, SAUDI ARABIA.

Friends like that, we don't need.

Oh, and it isn't IRAN putting the most out-of-country fighters into IRAQ, its...

SAUDI ARABIA.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BlueCollar)

Post #: 28

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 8:15:35 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

The hitch, being that this applies only to those protected by this constitution; i.e. citizens.

As evidenced by the use of the word "Person" instead of "Citizen" in the document in question.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/person

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/citizen

Wait... ummm.

Sinergy

p.s. Call me crazy, but I suspect the Framers of the US Constitution were literate enough to understand the distinction between these two words.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 29

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 9:35:28 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Yeah, we wouldn't want to make those savages "angry" now would we?
You melt mecca and medina and there is no more cult of "islam."
They can convert to jehovah's witnesses.
Since when is a "religion" or "cult" "off limits?"
Those savages wouldn't have any problem burning or blowing up a christian church or jewish synagog but "we" have to respect their cult? Who made (that) rule?
And what would be so bad about fighting them "over here?"
There's what, 300M to 500M firearms in the hands of U.S. Citizens here.
Who do you think would be on the run?
They smash airplanes into our buildings but we have to "respect" their cult? Yeah! Right!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 30

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 11:11:24 AM

BlueCollar

Posts: 74
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you think Saudi Arabia are the US's ALLIES, you need to go back to school.

Saudi Arabia was the REASON for 9/11.

Bin Ladin wanted Bush to pull US troops from his homeland, SAUDI ARABIA.

Bin Ladin pulled off 9/11.

Bush withdrew US Troops from Bin Ladin's homeland, SAUDI ARABIA.

Friends like that, we don't need.

Oh, and it isn't IRAN putting the most out-of-country fighters into IRAQ, its...

SAUDI ARABIA.

Tell that to your government that has had several military installations and thousands of personnel stationed in the country. Perhaps you should be doing your part on the research side of things. I'll admit that the two countries don't always see eye-to-eye on certain issues, but you're assumption that Saudia Arabia is just another rogue state in-waiting is flawed. The very fact that several 9/11 hijackers were from the country that faced absolutely no military reprisal from the United States reinforces my point.

And as for popeye, chicken-hawks like you are what gives the rest of your country a black eye. Again, you're ready and willing to paint an entire ethnic and religious group with a single brush, but what about the estimated 4000+ Muslim soldiers, sailors, and airmen currently serving in the armed forces and haelping to keep you're biggoted ass safe at night?

No thought for the brave men and women keeping watch over you? For shame.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 31

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 11:37:19 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

"Saudia Arabia is just another rogue state in-waiting is flawed. "

There's nothing "In-waiting" about the danger posed by the extant Saudi Government.

Remember how Jim Phelp's instructions used to always end?

". As always, should you or any of your Impossible Missions Force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This tape will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck."

Just like the Saudi Government did with OBL, eh?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BlueCollar)

Post #: 32

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 11:59:02 AM

BlueCollar

Posts: 74
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline

Farglebargle, where are you getting this information? In 1990, in response to the Iraq invasion of Kuwait, Osama offered the Saudi Government over 10,000 armed fighters to defend the Saudi-Iraq borders and take part in a joint counter-attack against Iraqi forces. He was turned down by the Saudis and would later denounced the Saudis as shills of the Americans. This all later culminated in an all-out demand for US troop withdrawl from friendly nations in the middle east. Eventually the Saudis grew increasingly frustrated with his antics and made a move to imprison him. He was able to escape but had his citizenship revoked as a result of this, and has been a wanted man by Saudi authorities long before 9/11 occurred.

What you're saying contradicts so much data we have already. If you have evidence to support
you're position, please share some of it so I can make a judgement.

Oh, and for the record, I'm no fan of the Saudi government myself - especially given their extensive record on human rights violations- but I am arguing that they are still a nation allied with your government and enjoying special status as a partner in sharing certain middle-east policies.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 33

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 12:07:07 PM

MsBearlee

Posts: 1032
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar

Tell that to your government that has had several military installations and thousands of personnel stationed in the country. Perhaps you should be doing your part on the research side of things. I'll admit that the two countries don't always see eye-to-eye on certain issues, but you're assumption that Saudia Arabia is just another rogue state in-waiting is flawed. The very fact that several 9/11 hijackers were from the country that faced absolutely no military reprisal from the United States reinforces my point.

And as for popeye, chicken-hawks like you are what gives the rest of your country a black eye. Again, you're ready and willing to paint an entire ethnic and religious group with a single brush, but what about the estimated 4000+ Muslim soldiers, sailors, and airmen currently serving in the armed forces and haelping to keep you're biggoted ass safe at night?

No thought for the brave men and women keeping watch over you? For shame.

Yippieeeeeeeeeeee! Yeah, welcome to the boards...I just knew I was gonna like you. It is so nice to have an obviously bright, well-read, articulate, polite person join us.

Thank you,
Beverly

_____________________________

A must read for submissives! (click here)

This one, as well!

(in reply to BlueCollar)

Post #: 34

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 12:09:56 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

The hitch, being that this applies only to those protected by this constitution; i.e. citizens.

As evidenced by the use of the word "Person" instead of "Citizen" in the document in question.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/person

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/citizen

Wait... ummm.

Sinergy

p.s. Call me crazy, but I suspect the Framers of the US Constitution were literate enough to understand the distinction between these two words.

Hiya Sinergy,

This is spirit of debate of course.

Are you suggesting that the citizens of Japan should have filed a class action lawsuit against the US government for the A-bomb? That our soldiers, in following the explicit instructions of their commanders (and risking jailtime if they disobeyed) should be held criminally and civilly responsible for murder in the course of war time operations?

If the constitution were to apply to non-citizens, it would create a judicial paradox; I believe the framers intended for the US to have a strong and capable military. I don't think they intended for enemy combatants to be entitled to due process, before they were shot in the course of their duty. Certainly, enough of the framers (and their children and their prodigies) were still alive to assert that point, when the war of 1812 came about.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 35

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 12:11:43 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar

Farglebargle, where are you getting this information? In 1990, in response to the Iraq invasion of Kuwait, Osama offered the Saudi Government over 10,000 armed fighters to defend the Saudi-Iraq borders and take part in a joint counter-attack against Iraqi forces. He was turned down by the Saudis and would later denounced the Saudis as shills of the Americans. This all later culminated in an all-out demand for US troop withdrawl from friendly nations in the middle east. Eventually the Saudis grew increasingly frustrated with his antics and made a move to imprison him. He was able to escape but had his citizenship revoked as a result of this, and has been a wanted man by Saudi authorities long before 9/11 occurred.

What you're saying contradicts so much data we have already. If you have evidence to support
you're position, please share some of it so I can make a judgement.

Oh, and for the record, I'm no fan of the Saudi government myself - especially given their extensive record on human rights violations- but I am arguing that they are still a nation allied with your government and enjoying special status as a partner in sharing certain middle-east policies.

If what I'm saying contradicts the STORY YOU'VE BEEN TOLD, consider the source of the story you've been told.

Here's a hint. The only "friend" anyone has in the Middle East is THEMSELVES. Everyone else is a resource to be used.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BlueCollar)

Post #: 36

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 12:13:55 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Yeah, we wouldn't want to make those savages "angry" now would we?
You melt mecca and medina and there is no more cult of "islam."
They can convert to jehovah's witnesses.
Since when is a "religion" or "cult" "off limits?"
Those savages wouldn't have any problem burning or blowing up a christian church or jewish synagog but "we" have to respect their cult? Who made (that) rule?
And what would be so bad about fighting them "over here?"
There's what, 300M to 500M firearms in the hands of U.S. Citizens here.
Who do you think would be on the run?
They smash airplanes into our buildings but we have to "respect" their cult? Yeah! Right!

quote:

ORIGINAL: SomeSaudi

Yeah, we wouldn't want to make those savages "angry" now would we?
You melt Jerusalem and Bethlehem and there is no more cult of "Christianity."
They can convert to discordianism.
Since when is a "religion" or "cult" "off limits?"
Those savages wouldn't have any problem burning or blowing up a mosque or jewish synagog but "we" have to respect their cult? Who made (that) rule?
And what would be so bad about fighting them "over here?"
There's what, 300M to 500M firearms in the hands of our Citizens here.
Who do you think would be on the run?
They smash bombs into our buildings but we have to "respect" their cult? Yeah! Right!

And the wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round... round and round...

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 37

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 12:20:52 PM

BlueCollar

Posts: 74
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
If what I'm saying contradicts the STORY YOU'VE BEEN TOLD, consider the source of the story you've been told.

Here's a hint. The only "friend" anyone has in the Middle East is THEMSELVES. Everyone else is a resource to be used.

So, in other words you have no evidence to back-up your claims?

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 38

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 12:24:37 PM

MsBearlee

Posts: 1032
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Yeah, we wouldn't want to make those savages "angry" now would we?
You melt mecca and medina and there is no more cult of "islam."
They can convert to jehovah's witnesses.
Since when is a "religion" or "cult" "off limits?"
Those savages wouldn't have any problem burning or blowing up a christian church or jewish synagog but "we" have to respect their cult? Who made (that) rule?
And what would be so bad about fighting them "over here?"
There's what, 300M to 500M firearms in the hands of U.S. Citizens here.
Who do you think would be on the run?
They smash airplanes into our buildings but we have to "respect" their cult? Yeah! Right!

quote:

ORIGINAL: SomeSaudi

Yeah, we wouldn't want to make those savages "angry" now would we?
You melt Jerusalem and Bethlehem and there is no more cult of "Christianity."
They can convert to discordianism.
Since when is a "religion" or "cult" "off limits?"
Those savages wouldn't have any problem burning or blowing up a mosque or jewish synagog but "we" have to respect their cult? Who made (that) rule?
And what would be so bad about fighting them "over here?"
There's what, 300M to 500M firearms in the hands of our Citizens here.
Who do you think would be on the run?
They smash bombs into our buildings but we have to "respect" their cult? Yeah! Right!

And the wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round... round and round...

Bingo! The atrocities done in the name of Christianity go on and on... just like the savages of the US who invade other countries for their resources and call it war on terror.

While I may not be politically astute, I can spot savages after somone else's oil as fast as anybody.

B

_____________________________

A must read for submissives! (click here)

This one, as well!

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 39

RE: Tancredo: If they nuke us....bomb Mecca - 8/4/2007 12:44:14 PM

BlueCollar

Posts: 74
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee
Bingo! The atrocities done in the name of Christianity go on and on... just like the savages of the US who invade other countries for their resources and call it war on terror.

While I may not be politically astute, I can spot savages after somone else's oil as fast as anybody.

B

I think it's important to recognise that more often than not, religious belief and cultural conventions are used as a front by leaders to advance POLITICAL goals and ideologies. I find it's not so much a religious belief in itself that is to blame for these sorts of conflicts, but rather the people who highjack them to serve their own agendas.

(in reply to MsBearlee)

Post #: 40

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