Giving and Getting Advice (Full Version)

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fillepink -> Giving and Getting Advice (6/30/2005 8:54:01 PM)

what with one thing and another, i have been on the message boards quite a bit just lately, and i have taken note of something that disturbs me. whether due to the nature of BDSM, or for other personal reasons, some threads have dealt with fairly serious issues. among them have been: legal issues; medical issues; serious relationship issues; and so forth.

i realise that every poster's profile is embedded in his post, and anyone who wishes may check it out while evaluating what has been said. but someone in a hurry or in distress might not do so; or a profile might not be as forthright as perhaps it should be.

frankly, i am alarmed by the nature and manner of the responses some posters make. rather than say "this might be worth considering" or "I found this helpful"; some posters say "you have this problem (fill in here) and should do this (fill in here)."

i have been quilty of this myself; i once advised a girl to avoid a situation by lying, and was properly criticised, and retracted my advice. i think we sometimes are so enamored of our own voice/opinions/number of posts/arguments with other posters/whatever we might lose sight of the fact that our posts could influence some one. a person we DO NOT KNOW; a person who could be in distress; a person who might believe we know the area of law/medicine/BDSM/whatever under discussion.

i know there are intelligent, well-informed people on the boards; the irony is, they rarely speak as if from Mount Sinai. it's the ill-informed; the "know it all"s"; the people with a wide collection of "hot buttons" who tend to speak as if no further discussion/research/thought need be given because THEY have spoken.

myself; i'd like to see people offer some basis for the expertise they claim. are you a lawyer? in law school? a paralegal? are you a medical doctor? a registered nurse? etc. if you do not have these credentials but want to post to a thread anyway, i'd REALLY like to see that fact disclosed. something like "i am not qualified to give a professional opinion, but ....." i have been honest about my lack of knowledge about certain areas of the law. THEN contributed my opinion.

i guess what i am trying to say is while the boards should be fun and provide a free exchange of ideas, i think there are certain threads where a sense of responsibility should be shown.

[image]local://upfiles/72910/6BC51F4F490B45D1BE6D758818EDA74C.jpg[/image]



Lordandmaster -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (6/30/2005 8:59:19 PM)

Essentially I agree. The one safety net is that ignoramuses who impersonate experts usually give themselves away. It doesn't take very long for someone writing about biology or history or politics or law to reveal that he or she doesn't know jackshit.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (6/30/2005 9:04:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fillepink
i know there are intelligent, well-informed people on the boards; the irony is, they rarely speak as if from Mount Sinai. it's the ill-informed; the youngserts; the people with a wide collection of "hot buttons" who tend to speak as if no further discussion/research/thought need be given because THEY have spoken.


*batting eyelashes*

I can't imagine who you might have in mind there...

Ahh youthful arrogance, such a convenient excuse to not have to actually deal with the idea that I might be right, isn't it? I'm just a young twerp who thinks she knows everything and spends all her days spouting off to others to fulfill an obvious sense of self-lacking and need to be the center of attention.

Guess that idea that I might actually know what I'm talking about (and I have no issue with saying that I do) is just too weird to handle.

But, NOT to make this thread all about me- I think the best posts are the ones that make the person reading it look within themselves and ask a deeper question than they had before.



anthrosub -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (6/30/2005 9:18:48 PM)

I was thinking some of the same thoughts myself when it comes to making a statement. Sometimes you see people saying "In my opinion..." or "I think..." but maybe not as often as would be helpful. One thing about this that I think is important (see, I said "I think") is if these little disclaimers aren't present in a person's posting, there's a possibility they may be one of the few "legends in their own mind" we cross paths with on occasion.

I also suspect there are people trolling for an argument on this board just to stir the pot and make trouble. They'll take something and run with it for as long as possible just to see how far they can lead others along for their own personal amusement. In these cases, you have to remember the old saying, "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." Better to just ignore them once it's clear what's going on.

I know I post some things that are controversial once in a while but it's only to read other points of view and share my own. You might say discussing a particular topic is like painting a picture with each post being a stroke of the brush. The more posts, the more detailed the picture becomes. It's when someone comes in and starts broad-stroking the painting that it all gets messy.

anthrosub



perverseangelic -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (6/30/2005 9:21:28 PM)

I tend to think that 'in my opinion..." and "I think that..." are inherant in every post on here, excluding ones with citations attached, and don't need to be said.

I mean, I'm writing the response, of course it's my opinion.

I do think that the anonymity of the net allows many of us to say things in ways we wouldn't face to face.

Also, some of us youngsters have been invovled in bdsm longer than some of us older people. This isn't to say that length of time implies level of "correctness" however it's innacurate to assume that "young" means "new."



imtempting -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (6/30/2005 10:17:21 PM)

Well if your after legal advice then you should double check in real life or go to a number of sources/fourmns. Health then if its something serious (in my opinion something that is on the inside of the body) go to a real doctor. Make up some excuse. If its marks from play sure id trust people online.



fillepink -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (6/30/2005 10:19:16 PM)

young people..just like any other person..should be treated respectfuly unless and until they do something to lose that respect. it is perfectly obvious people find BDSM at different ages and have different levels of experience. it is also true that, as we live and grow and evolve, we pass through different stages of life, each with its blessings. Youth has confidence, exuberance, an inanate ability to form a world view separate from that of their parents. it is a precious time of life. when i was in college, we marched aginst the War, for Civil Rights, to Free Soviet Jews, in favor of Busing, etc. we were certain we were right; we brooked no argument from our elders. those times are special memories to me; i would not trade them for anything...but now, nearly 50, i know i was not as wise and worldly as i thought myself to be. in fact, aging through my 30's and 40's has mostly been a process of discovering how little i do know. and finding peace within myself.

that said -- and hopefully now i have shown respect to all people, all levels of experience, all earthlings -- i return to my original post. i simply think there are some posts that call for disclosure of the writer's amatuer status and are framed as advice and not edicts. i think we have the power to influence people, especially a vunerable person, and should just take a moment and make sure we don't abuse it.

[image]local://upfiles/72910/0BEEEDB334A749268831CEF43A746292.jpg[/image]



sub4hire -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 10:47:55 AM)

Fillepink,
While your post is informative and right on. Not many are going to abide by it.
There are certain poster's here I just flat out ignore. Certain ones whom I know will give bad advice every time...they also respond to every single post.

So, you have to assume people have some common sense. People are going to post their expertise no matter how much you know it is wrong.
I'm a person who researches and analyzes to death, always have. Some threads are just disturbing.

Yet, what can you do? I don't see it as being a young trait...or an old trait..it's just a charachter flaw many seem to have.
It seems a lot of people look at these boards as being their family so they ask for advice they never should be.
I know I don't know everything and never have claimed to know everything in the world. I'm still evolving like everyone else. It would be nice if other's could recognize that same fact within themselves.



Tempestspet -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 11:00:43 AM)

I was going to write quite a long response, since I know that I am one op is complaing about. But I'll save most of it to say this

to agree with anthrosub. Some people, look for the insult, they look for the problem.

This is the internet, amateur status goes, in my opinion, (obviously) without saying on here. If someone wants, or is so desperate to take absolutely snything thrown at them.... they are going to do it whether you are looking at them, and giving good or bad advice, or typing it out here.

I assume, and this may be my bad here... that I am conversing with intelligent people. But, neverthe less, I'm assuming that I am.

And for the record... and should I have inclination......there's planty of people will tell you, I give my opinions.. here, or in real life. Everyone may not like them.... but I must not be nuts to be in the position I'm in. I don't hide behind a computer screen. I'm just what you get. And sometimes that means on a bad day... you get commetns with a little more teeth, than others. That also means, that whether on here, or in real life... you still have people misunderstanding what you are saying. Period. No matter how much one would like to insist they "get it" and know without a doubt what you were saying.... well... it's just not always true.

Well, I failed in that this became sorta lenghty anyways...sorry about that.

Here's the other thing. I will not be goaded, again, into getting into a drawn out discussion of what I "really said" with anyone...publicly, or privately... comments I welcome. But my mother finished raising me, and did a damn fine job of it. I don't need another mommy. Thanks though.


Tempest's pet
jennifer

PS for the record this is not a flame... as no one names, only situations have been mentioned.
And yes, I'm short on patience this morning...I apologize to the innocent.



fillepink -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 11:12:31 AM)

quote:

It seems a lot of people look at these boards as being their family so they ask for advice they never should be.


i will take your word for this Gloria..i have not been on the boards long enough to see any co-dependent posters. If that's happening, then you are right; there is not enough that can be done to protect the ultra-sensitive poster who turns to an internet message board and not real life for a sense of community.

nonetheless, i recommended such a small change and it might yield such great benefits. 1st, disclose your amateur status (No amount of legal research on the net will substitute for a law degree; i am sorry, but if you are not an attorney it is only fair to let people know that when you post opinions on legal matters.) 2nd, frame your post as your opinion, not the only possible point of view. i do not think this is overly burdensome, and could protect someone from a serious mistake.

fillepink



[image]local://upfiles/72910/483D5408B3D24896BEC6B3F7FC9572BA.jpg[/image]



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 11:24:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fillepink
i will take your word for this Gloria..i have not been on the boards long enough to see any co-dependent posters. If that's happening, then you are right; there is not enough that can be done to protect the ultra-sensitive poster who turns to an internet message board and not real life for a sense of community.

I look at it more as preparing someone for real life, which isn't all cuddly and rainbows and butterflies.

I'm not actively antagonistic, but my intent IS always to make people question, inside themselves. That's generally not a happy space people like to go.

Community includes dealing with people you don't like, people you disagree with. We're all adults here and we don't all have to fight over who got the most kool-aid. We've all got people who say "Oh you're so awesome!" and people who say "You totally suck!" learning how to blend that in with life and still be exactly who you are is a difficult, but necessary, task.

Instead of coddling an ultra-sensitive poster, I think it's better to help them deal better with reality, help them gain new perspectives and empower themselves, rather than allowing them to remain vulnerable to the slightest problem.
quote:


nonetheless, i recommended such a small change and it might yield such great benefits. 1st, disclose your amateur status (No amount of legal research on the net will substitute for a law degree; i am sorry, but if you are not an attorney it is only fair to let people know that when you post opinions on legal matters.) 2nd, frame your post as your opinion, not the only possible point of view. i do not think this is overly burdensome, and could protect someone from a serious mistake.

fillepink

I concur, this is why I use a lot of *I* in my posts.



Tormentius -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 12:39:27 PM)

This is a forum, every post should be taken with a grain of salt and merely as someones opinion. One of the great things about this place, in my opinion, is that there are a good dose of both informed and uninformed thoughts which are shared.



nonuts4thshoney -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 12:52:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

I look at it more as preparing someone for real life, which isn't all cuddly and rainbows and butterflies.


This is very true in my opinion.


When i read posts to my threads i sometimes say "why the fuck would he/she say something like that?". i have learned to take a step back and ask myself why someone would say the things they do. i do this not only on the boards but outside the boards as well. Someones views may be different from mine but it doesn't make it wrong. i think if someone comes across harsh it is for a good reason and maybe if some people took a step back and analyzed this they may then gather a different understanding. Everyone has something to contribute and everyone gets something out of what someone says because it makes you think. This is just my opinion.

-carolyn




happypervert -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 1:30:03 PM)

quote:

nonetheless, i recommended such a small change and it might yield such great benefits. 1st, disclose your amateur status (No amount of legal research on the net will substitute for a law degree; i am sorry, but if you are not an attorney it is only fair to let people know that when you post opinions on legal matters.) 2nd, frame your post as your opinion, not the only possible point of view. i do not think this is overly burdensome, and could protect someone from a serious mistake.

Sorry, but this is just ridiculous. If somebody wants professional legal, medical, psychiatric, or even home improvement advice then they shouldn't be asking here. Of course all they are going to get is advice from amateurs unless somebody qualifies their post by disclosing their professional status. So they get a bunch of opinions and they can be swayed either by the weight of opinion on one side of the issue or they can just pick the responses they like. It isn't our responsibility to protect them from being idiots and listening to bad advice.

Yeah, I know I didn't follow the rule os saying *I think* or *in my opinion* before saying this is ridiculous. But like perverse said, that should be obvious. Furthermore, even with all the *I thinks* you use, your opinion on this topic still has the tone of edicts issued from the mountaintop by Miss Manners. So it looks to me like your point is nothing more than a trivial distinction of style over substance camouflaged by talk about protecting the readers.

So in the context of giving and getting advice, it's fine with me if folks are opinionated because at least the ones giving advice are usually trying to help the person asking for it. What is far more annoying to me is getting "advice" or lectures when nobody has asked for it.



Faramir -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 1:43:45 PM)

I think part of this depends on your frame of reference.

I don't have a problem with someone putting out strong opinions - I feel free to challenge them, to be challeneged - this is the dialectic in action.

When someone speaks here, I know they aren't speaking truth - they are giving their thesis, to which may be added anti-thesis, and thence synthesis.

I sure as hell don't buy ad hominem forbidance of arguement. Someone doesn't need to be a lawyer to discuss a legal issue. Yes, a layer might have technical, process information from their day to day work - but that is usually the minutia we aren't too intersted in.

I know some damn dumb doctors, and I know some knowledgable non-doctors. I'm happy to listen to anyone's thoughts on say, a medical issue, and take them all with a grain of salt.



Kindred2Evil -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 1:50:10 PM)

I'd like to add my two cents here.

It's stupid to take someone's word (unless you know them personally and in person) for anything. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but let's get real. We're all a bunch of code in a computer, typing out replies to things. You don't know me, I don't know you. I can tell you my history, my experiences, the things I do, but how do you personally know squat about me? You don't. I could be an R.N., a lawyer, a dr., a shrink, an educated-beyond-my-intelligence-idiot. You never know.
If you come here looking for legal advice and get burned, well you deserve it. If you come here looking for medical advice and get sick, well hello, you deserve that too.
There's nothing wrong with sharing ideas, thoughts and experiences. But when this board or others like it become you soul means of education you will find it sadly lacking. I see all the time with people on here who obviously have no freakin clue what they are talking about, they talk in circles, they never confront something head on. They take things personally and attack. I've only met maybe a handful of people off the net, some good some not so good. I don't take what I read here to heart unless someone can back it up or verify it.
You don't like me? *yawn* I should care why?
Now you ask my opinion, I'll be happy to share. Am I going to blow smoke up your cyber ass? Not likely, not gonna happen. I don't do it in my offline life I sure as hell aren't going to do it here.
This is supposed to be a community discussion group, meeting place etc. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
The best line I can think of is something my grandfather used to say to us kids growing up:
Opinions and advice are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink.
Take what you want from here, leave the rest.
I think the responsiblity for what you get from these sort of boards rests on your shoulders. If you don't check out the things you read well that's on you not me. People quit needing to use the internet as some Grand High Regime of Knowledge. There is no substitute for an education and personal experience.



ShiftedJewel -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 1:54:43 PM)

quote:

i have been quilty of this myself;


It appears that the only person she outwardly "accused" of anything was herself, beyond that... assumption is the mother of paranoia.

quote:

i guess what i am trying to say is while the boards should be fun and provide a free exchange of ideas, i think there are certain threads where a sense of responsibility should be shown.


I agree with this point, I personally would never assume that a person asking a question has an IQ any higher then it takes to type out that particular question or the common sense it takes to step in out of the rain. I'm not saying that everyone that posts here is ignorant, I've seen an amazing number of highly intelligent responses here.. but I don't know of anyone that knows "all".... just a few that believe they do. I'm just saying that when I respond to a question... 99% of the time, ok.... maybe 98% of the time, I think it through and state that it is of my own personal beliefs. That capital letter on my nic has nothing to do with whether or not I'm right. And when I am wrong, I have no problem owning that. I would rather be called on it then to have some who thought I knew what I was talking about take my advice and ruin their life, health, day, opportunity... whatever.

quote:

I also suspect there are people trolling for an argument on this board just to stir the pot and make trouble. They'll take something and run with it for as long as possible just to see how far they can lead others along for their own personal amusement. In these cases, you have to remember the old saying, "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." Better to just ignore them once it's clear what's going on.


A lesson many of us could live with.

quote:

I tend to think that 'in my opinion..." and "I think that..." are inherant in every post on here, excluding ones with citations attached, and don't need to be said.


That isn't always the case, there are people here that can speak with such style and intelligence that one that didn't know better may believe that their words are most likely carved in stone someplace for posterity. Again, to assume that someone fully understands that it is nothing more then a laymans opinion is a mistake.

quote:

This is a forum, every post should be taken with a grain of salt and merely as someones opinion. One of the great things about this place, in my opinion, is that there are a good dose of both informed and uninformed thoughts which are shared.


I completely agree and I'm glad it's here for all to see. Unfortunately not everyone will see it.

Jewel



Lordandmaster -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 1:54:45 PM)

Oh all right, thought better of it.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 3:43:53 PM)

quote:

i guess what i am trying to say is while the boards should be fun and provide a free exchange of ideas, i think there are certain threads where a sense of responsibility should be shown.


And last but not least, don't believe everything you read on the Internet.

- LA



RiotGirl -> RE: Giving and Getting Advice (7/1/2005 5:05:44 PM)

i'm not getting into it <moro coughing>

But i just wanted to say that All your posts that i have seen Anthro, i think are very well thought out and intelligent. Its really a breath of fresh air. i enjoy them very much!



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