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RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/11/2007 5:46:58 AM

Manawyddan

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Joined: 1/2/2005
From: Petaluma (Northern California)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
I read about this guy on MSN....and then you could cast a vote as to if you think that any action should be taken....I voted that "no action should be taken"..I was surprised..The majority of the respondents felt that some sort of pre emptive strike was in order.

You're surprised by that?

When I was younger, I actually believed that most Americans were (or would be, if you explained some basic terminology to them) libertarians.

I haven't believed that for years. Actually, I think most Americans are probably fascists.

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Post #: 41

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/11/2007 11:19:30 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manawyddan

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
I read about this guy on MSN....and then you could cast a vote as to if you think that any action should be taken....I voted that "no action should be taken"..I was surprised..The majority of the respondents felt that some sort of pre emptive strike was in order.

You're surprised by that?

When I was younger, I actually believed that most Americans were (or would be, if you explained some basic terminology to them) libertarians.

I haven't believed that for years. Actually, I think most Americans are probably fascists.

I've come to the same conclusion though more recently.

(in reply to Manawyddan)

Post #: 42

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 4:01:39 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I've been thinking about this thread and yanno, there just isn't an easy answer at all. It is all frustrating shades of gray.

I agree. It is beyond sickening what pedophiles do to UMs, but we can't turn into a society like the one in the Minority Report, where they prevent crimes before they happen. That's one hell of a slippery slope.....

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(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 43

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 4:49:06 AM

Politesub53

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

"Pedophile" does not imply "rapist".

One thing I truly hate the Bush administration for was, a while back, passing a law that made animated porn depicting minors the same as actual child porn, punishable by the same heavy sentences. Such porn was a great thing for pedophiles! They could get their jollies off without any minor ever being involved. They would have a safe outlet for their sexual urges that would prevent the sexual frustration that might lead some to molestation/rape.

So you are saying people watching animated child porn ( In your words : to get their jollies off ) were not actually thinking of children ?

Thats bullshit, most peole watching animated BDSM are thinking about......BDSM

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 44

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 5:44:05 AM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manawyddan

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
I read about this guy on MSN....and then you could cast a vote as to if you think that any action should be taken....I voted that "no action should be taken"..I was surprised..The majority of the respondents felt that some sort of pre emptive strike was in order.

You're surprised by that?

When I was younger, I actually believed that most Americans were (or would be, if you explained some basic terminology to them) libertarians.

I haven't believed that for years. Actually, I think most Americans are probably fascists.

I've come to the same conclusion though more recently.

The problem is that Americans do not seem to understand the difference between a free society and a controlled society. They want a free society but seem unwilling to deal with the disadvantages of such society.

In a free society, you can voice you disapproval of the government. You can live your life the way you want to. You can believe in whatever you want to. You control your own destiny. The problem with this is that so can everyone else. And through life you are going to meet people who you will not like. You are going to meet people you disagree with and have very different beliefs and feelings. And like it or not, Americans need to learn to find a way to deal with that.

We are not a country that goes down the streets and throws people in jail, or slap restrictions on them, just because the rest of society disagrees with how they think. That is something they do in 3rd world countries. That is what they do under totalitarian regimes. The Nazis did this. And it is not a characteristic of a free society. And our constitution was written to prevent just such a thing. Putting this pedophile in prison just because of how he thinks would be like lighting the Bill of Rights on fire. It would be a direct conflict with the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments.

Does it put society at risk if we allow this pedophile and others like him to simply roam free? Sure, you can make that argument. But that is one of the disadvantages of a free society. Allowing people to own firearms is also a risk (ie: Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc...). . Allowing people to post hate websites on the internet is also a risk to society. But those are the disadvantages of a free society.

Remember that Benjamin Franklin said that any society that forfeits it's freedom in exchange for safety and security deserves neither freedom nor safety and will lose both.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 8/12/2007 5:47:56 AM >

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 45

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 5:58:32 AM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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It's a difficult one:

1) This bloke is handing out grooming information to paedophiles.
2) The available evidence suggests paedophiles can't resist the temptation.
3) A paedophile doesn't need a bloke on a website to tell him/her where children are in large groups, so it may not be the inducement to abduct that it seems at first light.

The acid test, here, is this: what would you do if this bloke was letting paedohphiles know that there are large groups of children in an area where you live and your children play? Would you be as quick to defend the rights of paedophiles to roam where your children are?, or would you want protection for your child?

Whose "freedom" is more important: the freedom of a child to be protected from danger posed by paedophiles, or the freedom of a paedophile to chase his/her desires? Ok, a crime hasn't been committed, but the available evidence supports the view that they can't resist the temptation, and they will commit a crime in the area where this bloke is advertising on his website.

My view is that I can see Real0ne's point, there is a risk that this could set a precedent for pre-crime arrests across the board, but I think this is a special case and I would take that risk for the protection of children; it is then upto society to not allow the government to use this particular one off case as a precedent for other pre-crime arrests.

On a similar note: how would you feel if a convicted rapist was putting up details on a webiste of where large groups of women gather for the benefit of other convicted rapists, and that gathering happens to be in an area where you live? You can't watch your wife all of the time.

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Post #: 46

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 6:23:56 AM

Politesub53

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There where a case where a clansman was convicted for advocating violence. When the appeal reached the high court it was dismissed, setting a precedent for action where "Free Speech" was likely to incite criminal behaviour.

I dont think any democracy sets out to block free speech, as when it does then it is no longer a democracy. What does happen, and in my view rightly so, is that democracies sometimes have to take action, that while affecting our freedoms, also protect the people, in the case in the OP. The Children.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 47

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 6:26:48 AM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

On a similar note: how would you feel if a convicted rapist was putting up details on a webiste of where large groups of women gather for the benefit of other convicted rapists, and that gathering happens to be in an area where you live? You can't watch your wife all of the time.

I don't believe the guy has been convicted. So in order to make your example crime consistant it would be....how would you feel if a Person with rape fantasies was putting up details on a webiste of where large groups of women gather for the benefit of other people that are turned on by thoughts of rape, and that gathering happens to be in an area where you live? You can't watch your wife all of the time.

How would you feel ?

It seems that since this guy hasn't had sex with a child that we know of, it is only fantasy and desire, not a conviction for action, so it would seem that the rape scenario would have to fall under the same category, as in someone that hasn't raped anyone but thinks about it and gets off on the thought. I don't think the example would be valid unless they are equal in terms of acting out their thoughts.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 48

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 7:03:17 AM

cautiousiasub

Posts: 199
Joined: 10/17/2005
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"I agree. It is beyond sickening what pedophiles do to UMs, but we can't turn into a society like the one in the Minority Report, where they prevent crimes before they happen. That's one hell of a slippery slope....."

I wondered if someone was going to bring up this movie. I don't think we should live in that type of society. Other posters have mentioned regulating the internet, but how is that possible? It is too vast an area to try to police.

On the other hand, what did they guy expect when he basically advertised he was a pedophile?

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 49

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 7:25:13 AM

BIllCT

Posts: 160
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline

When man starts policing each others thoughts and actions you are living in a dictatorship and that sucks period!

(in reply to Manawyddan)

Post #: 50

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 7:26:07 AM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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The point stands.

a) A bloke advertising to convicted rapists.
b) A bloke advertising to convicted paedophiles.

Tough decisions have to be made now and again; the balance between civil liberties and responsibility to society is one we grapple with every day through the rule of law: this is nothing new. It boils down to where you're prepared to draw the line, including making your decision and standing by it.

I don't support the rights of a man to advertise to convicted paedophiles that there are large groups of children in an area for him to chase his desires; particularly as the evidence suggests paedophiles can't resist the temptation, and, consequently, it is a matter of when, rather than if. Yes, it could set a precedent for pre-crime arrests in other areas, but I personally would take that risk because of the details of this particular case.

I think it's fair to say that paedophilia is a one-off scenario, in my mind anyway, unless someone can provide some similar examples. As said, if it was your children?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 51

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 7:49:20 AM

MistressKennidee

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I have to take in the what if it was my children statment here. As a mom if some one was thinking of or providing means for someone else to think about my kids or anyones elses in that way, even if they weren't acting on it at the moment. I would take the steps to prevent it from ever coming to more. If the law didn't step in I think it would come down to a lynch mob. I am usually a pretty tolerant person but hurt my kids or even consider hurting my kids and tolerence is going to go out the window.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 52

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 8:05:53 AM

MasterDennyslave

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Joined: 6/24/2007
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Being a survivor of child sexual abuse by a family friend, I only have a couple of things to say. My abuser was a family friend. I told my parents of the abuse, going on from age 5-11. Stopped only cause the guy died. They told me that he wouldnt do that to me and that I was lieing. Most sexual abuse is committed by a family member, or friend of the family. Parents, we are, ultimately, the ones responsible for our childrens safety. Please, if your son/daughter comes to you and tells you that someone touched them. Believe them, until proven otherwise. The younger the child, the more likely to be telling the truth. Before you jump to conclusions at this statement, hear me out. There are instances where an older child has gotten mad at someone and fabricates the lie about being abused. But when your young child tells you this, listen to them. And it doesnt have to be in so many words. My own daughter was abused at the age of four. The only sign at first was that she didnt want to be near the person, but then he had gotten after her for getting into something. That is a normal reaction in itself from a young child. Then one day at the gas station, she told me that his pee pee tasted nasty. Did I believe her? Damn straight I did. I went to the police. they picked him up for questioning, he admitted it, and was convicted. The bottom line is this, you can have any website you want on here, promoting legal or illegal activites. But it is up to us, as the parents to protect our children. Not the neighbors, not the government. us, the parents.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 53

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 8:10:45 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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You should have cut the fucking bastard dead with a knife, is my opinion.

Maybe that's the lesson our kids need to learn. Someone messes with you, you kill them.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to MasterDennyslave)

Post #: 54

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 8:17:27 AM

Sinergy

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This is one of the reasons I teach full-contact self defense to children and teenagers.

Being able to keep oneself safe, awareness skills, verbal skills, and ultimately, fighting skills with weapons which cannot be taken away and used against oneself are incredibly valuable to everybody.

Sinergy

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(in reply to farglebargle)

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RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 8:19:48 AM

teachmeDaddy

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Joined: 4/14/2005
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if he is guilty send him to prision they will handle it i PROMISE

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Post #: 56

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 8:28:03 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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The air people breath shouldn't be poisoned by these pieces of shit child molesters breathing it.

It is EVERY individuals responsibility to ensure their own safety and security.

Resist, Resist, Resist. There is no such thing as fighting dirty when you're fighting for your life or freedom.

And if abducted, since there's the possibility the child may be killed, shouldn't they be taught to try to kill as many of their abductors as possible before they're killed?

Yeah, it's a harsh attitude about an sick twisted situation, but there we are.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to teachmeDaddy)

Post #: 57

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 8:50:38 AM

Solaise

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As a society, we have become complacent, uninvolved and apathetic. We have come to rely heavily on the 'authorities' to fix all of our ills.

Someone mentioned the disadvantages of living in a free society, and I wholly agree with that statement. The difference between this creep and the next is that he has given parents and the community an open book, and people can use that to THEIR advantage. No one with half an instinct towards self-preservation is going to show up to an event where people are more acutely aware of a potential threat. And god help the idiot that DOES show up. Parents can look at this thing and see if an event they are planning on attending is on the list. Police can step up patrols at these venues. Community policing works. And I think community policing is far more valuable in maintaining safety because driving this dude underground aint gonna curb or halt what he is doing. I would rather see the shmope, personally.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 58

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 9:03:25 AM

FYIinFL

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I am curious how many of the posters who argue for Jack and his site as well as other pedophiles have young children or grandchildren.

Seattle-Area Pedophile Has 'How-to' Web Site for Men Seeking Little Girl Activities

quote:

"I guess the main thing is I just think they're cute, a lot cuter than women. I admit there is kind of an erotic arousal there," McClellan said.

quote:

But he said while it's OK to look, it's not OK to touch, given the many state laws in place to protect children against that. "I know it sounds kind of crazy, but there's kind of a code of ethics that these pedophiles have developed and what it is ... the contact has to be completely consensual, no coercion, if you're going to do it," McClellan said.

< Message edited by FYIinFL -- 8/12/2007 9:04:16 AM >

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 59

RE: Thought Police? Where is the line drawn? - 8/12/2007 9:07:38 AM

FYIinFL

Posts: 37
Joined: 7/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

This is one of the reasons I teach full-contact self defense to children and teenagers.

Being able to keep oneself safe, awareness skills, verbal skills, and ultimately, fighting skills with weapons which cannot be taken away and used against oneself are incredibly valuable to everybody.

Sinergy

Thank you for what you do.
I wish there were more like you to teach these skills at local elementary, middle & high schools

< Message edited by FYIinFL -- 8/12/2007 9:08:13 AM >

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 60

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