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WWII and Who Won It - 8/8/2007 11:53:45 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		I can't believe people as smart as Thompson (the stupid ones are easy to understand) can think that Russia beat the Germans.

If Russia had bailed out of the war it would have been harder to beat the Germans but it was the West that destroyed their war machine, not the Russians.

The 10% figure is meaningless.  We delivered transport vehicles of which the Russians had very few and the Dodges ran forever and were delivered early on when the percentage was far higher. 

The Russians were still using M3 Scout cars when they invaded Hungary, and that was equipment facing the West which would have been they best available.

We sent them the shit aircraft like the p39 Airacobra because if we had flown that underpowered POS in the West the 190s would have blasted them from the sky.

It pains me to agree with Caitlyn but she is absolutely right.  Numbers in modern warfare are not enough,  you need to know what it was and when.  The Russians would have folded without us and without the pressure we put on the Germans with the air war they would have been able to control the air in the East like we did in the West.
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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 12:04:42 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Without the Russians then in probably Sept of 1945 they would have dropped a couple of "Nazi Boy" H bombs on them and it would have been over anyway.

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 12:06:09 AM   
Masternslave07


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Status: offline 		Ah, but that would mean that America actually stands for something positive in the world. They can't have that.

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 12:08:01 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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quote:

WWII and Who Won It


i have no idea, i purposely skipped history class in school.


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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 12:44:43 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Take a neutral perspective: English historians.

The English have always been vehemently anti-communist; we share many of the same ideals as Americans. If they were to be biased one way or the other, then the bias would be in favour of the Americans.

'Long story short:

1) The best trained and best equipped German soldiers fought on the Eastern front.
2) The majority of the German Army fought on the Eastern front.
3) German war aims were in the East; the attack in the West was a preventative measure.

The US played a significant role in WW2; however, in comparison with the Russians, they were the supporting act.

I think I'm beginning to understand the mentality of some Americans; you crave the acceptance of your peers. How else could you explain this rehashing of history? There appears to be a crisis of identity; therefore, you create one divorced from reality: saviour of the world. This concept holds no currency outside of the United States.

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 12:49:02 AM   
Satyr6406


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From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline 		I may not know much about the history of WWII but, I know a few things about it and I can tell you this:
 
One of the reasons the French hate us so much is because we sat doing nothing (in their view) while they were an occupied nation for three years but, when the Germans seemed like they were about to bomb England back to the stone age, we invaded, in strength (and used part of France as the initial battle ground).
 
I don't give a crap about numbers. Most people that were alive back then agreed that Europe would be speaking German were it not for the U.S.
 
Now, I am not saying we played a "major roll". Only that all the ingrediants were there, already and we were ... I kill myself, sometimes ... the straw that stirred the drink.
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 1:44:30 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		The OP says that numbers are not enough in modern War.
Well I will send 10 million men and 10000 tanks to attack your 5 million men and 2000 tanks,
When you deploy your 500 stock of smart weapons I will counter with my 700 smart weapons.
All thats left for you then is your nuclear weapons which if used obliterates all unless my launch capabilities exceed yours and my nuclear defense capability is bigger than yours, which in this case it is.
The upshot is I win...easily and numbers DO matter lol.
By the way, dont switch the argument to guerrilla War. We are talking WW2 type wars.

I suggest you have a read about WW2 on the eastern front. Especially the tank and rocket counter offensives launched by the Russkies.
That'll larn ya.

Signed for Field Marshal (of the superior forces of the great motherland )
Alexander Poyvoyavich Oivegotanitch Jerkoffsky

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/9/2007 1:53:10 AM >

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 2:02:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		WWII and Who Won It
 
Russian blood, American money. Though without either the Germans would have lost because they lost the war themselves. The Germans were only prepared for a short war, unfortunately Britain was barely prepared at all but if Britain didn't win the Battle of Britain, the idea of America entering the European war would have been irrelevent.

The Germans weren't as efficient as we are led to believe. Their weapons were often too complex and incompatibility between models made repairing damaged equipement impossible. While their assault weapons were the best, they had too many different types and soldiers often found themselves with ammunition they couldn't use. In the battle of Britain, they fought a strategy their planes weren't designed for. Despite the fear their U-boats caused their impact was small. The Germans found it impossible to stop coastal convoys around Britain never mind the Atlantic convoys. The Germans ran themselves into the ground and couldn't keep their forces supplied, they were having these difficulties before America entered the war.

The truth is no one nation won it, there was a losing side and a winning side.

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 2:05:45 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Masternslave07

Ah, but that would mean that America actually stands for something positive in the world. They can't have that.


America is a nation like any other nation in the world, its modus operandi is self interest.

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 2:13:28 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
WWII and Who Won It
 Russian blood, American money.

Agree. I would just expand to American armament production capability.
The Russkies produced large numbers of Tanks, Rocket launchers Aeroplanes and Artillery. If you've got enough they dont have to be the best.
 
 
quote:
if Britain didn't win the Battle of Britain, the idea of America entering the European war would have been irrelevent.

Surprised you believe this to be true. Did not Hitler actually declare War on th US ? 

quote:


The truth is no one nation won it, there was a losing side and a winning side

Totally true. IMO

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 2:20:29 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Stayr6404..... The Battle of Britain was over before America entered the war, mainly due to Hitler switching his air power for the attack on Russia. The German Navy was never capable of invading the UK. The air war was designed to get us to sign a peace deal.

Russia took the brunt of the casualties, America supplied the much hardware, everyone played their part in the defeat of Hitler.




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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 2:25:53 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

 
quote:
if Britain didn't win the Battle of Britain, the idea of America entering the European war would have been irrelevent.

Surprised you believe this to be true. Did not Hitler actually declare War on th US ? 



Well I guess in theory the Americans could have entered the European war but where would they have been based? It was hard enough winning a beach head in France from a well supplied Britain, they had no chance of doing it from the US itself.

Also, other allied countries and nations played a significant part in D-Day. I know it is difficult for some to believe but it is true.

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 2:27:26 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:


The air war was designed to get us to sign a peace deal.


Which many wanted to do and may well have included me had I been in a position to have any say....at the time. 

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 2:38:07 AM   
bluesteel762x51


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Status: offline 		Loving a good history discussion, I can only conclude:
The Russians were the most hate filled enemy the germans encountered, with good reason.  If I was Corporal Red Soldierski and saw what he saw when the occupied territories were liberated, I would want to seek vengence too.  There were Jews in the Red Army, and others the Nazis singled out. I think if it took the Reds 100 years to beat them they would have done it.  and using bolt actio rifles....but they did not.  Their industry made the T34 tank, the PPsh submachine gun, and so much artillery and rockets it was not funny.  They also did something I wish we would have done.  The T34 was no match for the Tiger so they put their technology in the SHELL it fired.  If close enough it bore a hole right through a tiger's turret.  A sherman on the other hand would have been more effective throwing tennis balls. 

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 2:43:44 AM   
bluesteel762x51


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Status: offline 		BTW.....I have no sympathy for the thousands of German POWs that were never seen again, and kept in Russia to rebuild what they had destroyed.  One escaped and made it back to Germany...in 1958!


Those that live by the sword will be shot by those of us that don't.

< Message edited by bluesteel762x51 -- 8/9/2007 2:44:47 AM >

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 3:00:52 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

I may not know much about the history of WWII but, I know a few things about it and I can tell you this:
 
One of the reasons the French hate us so much is because we sat doing nothing (in their view) while they were an occupied nation for three years but, when the Germans seemed like they were about to bomb England back to the stone age, we invaded, in strength (and used part of France as the initial battle ground).
 
I don't give a crap about numbers. Most people that were alive back then agreed that Europe would be speaking German were it not for the U.S.
 
Now, I am not saying we played a "major roll". Only that all the ingrediants were there, already and we were ... I kill myself, sometimes ... the straw that stirred the drink.
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael


You, my friend, will be hearing from Reggie Jackson's attorneys.

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 3:06:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

I don't give a crap about numbers. Most people that were alive back then agreed that Europe would be speaking German were it not for the U.S.
 


Hollywood propaganda. You should really read more books and watch less films.

A couple of example. The British were several years ahead of the US in radar technology and gave the US their technology which America used to great effect in the war. It was the British that decoded the German secret codes. Britain was already safe from invasion by the time the US entered the war and had started to make progress against the Japanese.

American industry greatly speeded up the progress and stopped the war becoming one of attrition that could have lasted a generation but Europe would never have been speaking German today.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/9/2007 3:13:08 AM >

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 3:07:44 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		On the OPs post. We all did our part, I don't see it as Russia winning it, nor America, nor the Axis losing it. A whole lot of pieces, however imperfectly, fit together to form the whole of WW 2.
 
And as an aside..... let's all remember, the war wasn't solely fought in Europe.

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 4:23:22 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

If Russia had bailed out of the war it would have been harder to beat the Germans but it was the West that destroyed their war machine, not the Russians.



Hi Michael

I'm interested to know how Russia might have bailed out of the war, because looking at the bigger picture it seems to me that the war was about nazi Germany acquiring the territories of Russia, enslaving the Russian people and destroying Communism.

From that perspective, the only way the Russians would have stopped fighting would have been if they had given total and unconditional surrender to the nazis, having been utterly defeated. Yet I dont see such a scenario being possible for them - better to fight to the last man surely, than to be enslaved? I feel that the very notion of Russia leaving the war is untenable because of the very different nature of the war on the Eastern Front - the Russians had no choice but to fight after all, against an enemy that saw not their defeat but their annihilation as its goal.

As for the idea that we in the west (UK, US, Canada, Anzacs, Ghurkas, free French, Poles, Czechs et al) destroyed the nazi war machine - we helped in interfering with their production for certain, but the nazi war machine was destroyed well after the production of its output, on the Eastern Front. Had the Russians for some reason not been involved or had been taken out in the war, then certainly US output and its delivery into the western theatre would have no doubt eventually overwhelmed the nazis, but here we are speculating and we must speculate alongside such a scenario that were the full force of the nazi war machine directed at the west and their military research been able to progress more quickly, unhindered by considerations for the Eastern Front, even with smaller numbers in terms of output they might have reversed the overall outcome by way of technology - which I think was the point of your OP.

Where nazi Germany lost the war is difficult to specify. The poor positioning of the surface fleet prior to hostilities was a mistake. The strategy in the Battle Of Britain was a mistake. The alliance with Japan was certainly a mistake, forcing Germany to compete with US military production. The invasion of Russia without sufficient planning for the winter was a mistake. Also important for me though was the placing of Romanian troops in the front line on the Eastern Front - providing weak points which the Russian troops exploited time and again to break through and flank. And definitely the lack of resources given early to the design and production of technologically advanced weaponry was a mistake - the Me262, the U21 and U23 type submarines, the V2 and so on, all came too late to make much difference, but could have been brought into effect much sooner. I'm sure I read somewhere too that the AK47 was based on a German design of late 1944 which never got into full production. Thank goodness.

E

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RE: WWII and Who Won It - 8/9/2007 4:43:15 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

One of the reasons the French hate us so much is because we sat doing nothing (in their view)  



I have to correct you, because I hear this kind of crap all the time. The French don't hate the Americans; they dislike America. BIG difference. If a nation hated another, I'd say it was the Americans that hated the French.

PS: and NorthernGent's psychological analysis of America is spot on. The American collective-psyche did reinvent itself as a nation that is the 'Saviour of the World'; with this christic self-perception, many Americans now feel they have a God's given right to interfere bombastically in all of the planet's affairs... There's a fascinating dissociation between fun and fact for you. Calling on all psychoanalysts now, please :-p

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/9/2007 4:47:47 AM >

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