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Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 6:27:29 PM   
KiandPhoenix


Posts: 205
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline 		I want to know where other subs draw the line between being dominated and abuse. I see all these profiles of people saying they want to be treated like dirt, that anything you want to do with them is OK, and to just do whatever you would like. They want no freewill, or say in the matter. Personally I can hardley believe that a person wants NO say in the matter. What if the Dom decides they want to beat them to death? Is that going to be OK with you? Does there have to be an emotional connection for you to not consider it abuse? If so how do you know it is real?

I’m not trying to berate anyone for their life style choice I’m just trying to understand the way others view this. I can’t picture having a Dom who didn’t cherish me and appreate all that I do for him.~Phoenix
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 6:37:19 PM   
sublimelysensual


Posts: 298
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline 		I think there are a few things that play into this. Knowing the Dom/me you're getting involved with on more than a surface level, ie, being able to have some confidence the person has no desire to "beat you to death" before submitting to them to begin with. That's also the reason I have limits. Will I completely and utterly submit? Yes, within those limits. Also bear in mind, as far as the whole being loved and cherished thing, not everyone wants that, some people are into objectification, or other non-emotional forms of subservience. Personally speaking, I'm an intelligent woman, I have thoughts and opinions, I share them with whomever I may be developing a relationship with. That being said, I don't expect them to take priority, and I don't want the last word. I wouldn't be involved with One who didn't weigh what I have to say, but nor would I want to be involved with One that always gave me my way. If I wanted that, I would be Domme *grinz*. Just my two cents, as always...
 
-a


edited to add: In what we do, abuse is a relative thing, what  I may consider abusive, someone else may not. If I were ever in a situation I considered abusive, I would be gone with the wind, period. Been there, done that, bought the shirt, burnt it. If I didn't put up with it in vanilla, sure as sh*t not putting up with it here either.

< Message edited by sublimelysensual -- 8/9/2007 6:41:02 PM >

_____________________________

"To make oneself an object, to make oneself passive, is a very different thing from being a passive object." -Simone De Beauvoir -'The Second Sex'

(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
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RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 6:37:59 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KiandPhoenix
I want to know where other subs draw the line between being dominated and abuse.

Before I become owned by Master, we discussed many things.  A very few hard limits - not negotiable - were established and agreed upon by us both.  He made it clear to me that He had no desire to harm me.  Hurt me?  Of course.  But harm me physically or emotionally?  Never.

To me, to do so would be to cross the line that I consider abuse.  I would do anything for my Master (with the exception of the couple things He already said I'll never have to do).  I want to be used by Him for His pleasure, whatever that entails - whether I "like" it or not.  However, if He were to do something to damage me - something that makes me lesser than what I am now - that would be abuse by my personal definition.

Master cherishes and values me very much.  He also uses me in many ways, some of which I don't specifically enjoy or even like.  I find nothing contradictory in that.  The day He begins lying to me, harming me emotionally, or in any other way diminishing me, we would have some very serious conversations to have.  He knows that He owns me body and soul, has complete control, and can do whatever He desires without lying and harming me.  For Him to do so would mean He isn't the same man I agreed to become owned by............luci 

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 8/9/2007 6:38:53 PM >

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
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RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 6:44:19 PM   
KiandPhoenix


Posts: 205
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

something that makes me lesser than what I am now


We really like that definiation.

~Phoenix and Ki

(in reply to slaveluci)
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RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 7:26:50 PM   
Viridana


Posts: 754
Status: offline 		double posting... sorry. 

< Message edited by Viridana -- 8/9/2007 7:32:59 PM >

(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
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RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 7:27:58 PM   
Viridana


Posts: 754
Status: offline 		I have no fear that my spouse would ever do me harm. But there have been some experimentations doing something that I really felt uncomfortanble with. I, like so many others, have certain phobias and fears that could (and have) triggered full blown panic attacks. If my spouse would deliberately put me into a situation where those triggers would be pushed I'd consider it abuse since the motivation behind it would be to cause me psychological harm. I draw the line there. My mental capacities towards my phobias and irrational fears must be respected... as well as of course the reasonable line of physical harm. I have no intentions in being disabled in anyway permanently as a result of play.


< Message edited by Viridana -- 8/9/2007 7:32:23 PM >

(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 7:31:40 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Abuse comes from insecurity, makes a person and relationship less of who they are and harmed.

Healthy dominance comes from security, makes a person and relationship more of who they are and fulfilled.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_130087/mpage_1/key_sadist%252Cabuse/tm.htm#130087
What is a sadist?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_308357/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#308357
Training and abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_255676/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#255676
Defining Domination v Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_224182/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#224182
Ms/Ds is it a license to abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_177013/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#177013
Discipline or abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_142096/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#142096
Abuse vs discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_131849/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#131849
Abuse disguised as dominance

http://www.collarchat.com/m_123045/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#123045
Overuse of "Abuse"

http://www.collarchat.com/m_47262/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#47262
Physical Abuse of a slave

http://www.collarchat.com/m_41029/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#41029
SM vs Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1874/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#1874
BDSM versus Abuse

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 7:37:02 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KiandPhoenix

quote:

something that makes me lesser than what I am now


We really like that definiation.

~Phoenix and Ki

Thank you.  I can't take the credit, though.  Master is the one who says that.  He is of the belief that, for Him, there is simply no value in owning someone "worthless."  The idea that a slave is lower than dirt, of no worth, has no worthwhile thoughts, etc. disgusts Him.  He is of the belief that anyone could "Master" a limp dishrag like that who has no self-esteem or strength at all.  Instead, He values the fact that I am an intelligent, capable, educated, self-reliant woman who can do just fine in the big, bad world with very little help, thank you. 

The fact that I chose to submit to Him and become His property is one He is very proud of.  He is quite fond of letting me know that it is His intent to build me up, to encourage me, to help me succeed.  Thereby, He says, that builds Him up.  He doesn't want a mindless lump as a slave.  He wants one who He can be proud of.  It's very selfish actually.  He helps me improve so He can look better..............luci 

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
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RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 7:42:48 PM   
classykindasassy


Posts: 291
Joined: 12/13/2005
Status: offline 		I feel like there is a difference between pushing my limits with full knowledge and consideration of how far he wants to take me, and the idea of just total disregard of who i am and how i feel. I would not expect to have every objection be a stop, but I would hope that after a fashion if things got bad (not deadly - that is stupid) that eventually my request to stop or adjust might be honored before i totally lose it.

If I could not trust my dom to honor my very life and wellbeing then i would not be with him - nor would any self respecting sub or slave. And i am of the opinion it takes a high degree of self knowledge and self respect to be able to give oneself fully into the dominance or mastery of another and still retain a sense of self that is healthy and essential for functioning in the real world and a decent relationship.

_____________________________

"The less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine." -The Indigo Girls

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 7:51:56 PM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline 		I simply can not imagine doing anything harmful and I truly see a line between harm and hurt.  (I may hurt you but I will never intentionally harm you is something I believe within my depths).

Harmful things....beyond what I feel obvious to most include things like breaking someone's spirit to the point where their self worth is nothing without me to back it up.  That is abuse. 

I have seen interactions where a woman was punched and kicked and hit with things like chairs until she begged for mercy but when it was all over she was gushing with pride and satisfaction.  From an outside perspective while going on looked abusive.  It wasn't.

I've used the spanking bench next to the one Scott Smith was using at conventions and...OMG.  That man is scary for me and I'm a sadist.  He broke canes, paddles, brushes, and who knows what all else on this gal.  Her ass and thighs were not only red but blistered, open, oozing and well, not pretty.  She screamed louder than I've heard anyone in a long time.  The next day I watched a suspension demo by him and his cute lil vixen.  He suspended her by her feet and of course her skirt fell around her ears...he flipped her around for all of us to see and her ass and thighs were crimson, purple, black and blue.  There were open areas and welted areas.  She was happy as a clam.

Neither of these women were abused to their standards.  It is simply a part of WIIWD.  So...OP, where is the line?  For me it sure as heck isn't the same place it was for these two ladies or their tops.  As a bottom on occasion, those things would be abusive for me personally to endure.

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to Viridana)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 7:54:11 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline 		Bottom line.  If I eagerly engage it is not abuse.   And I rather eagerly engage in behavior many might call abuse.

_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 8:44:43 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KiandPhoenix

I want to know where other subs draw the line between being dominated and abuse.


I draw the line at consent.

quote:

I see all these profiles of people saying they want to be treated like dirt, that anything you want to do with them is OK, and to just do whatever you would like. They want no freewill, or say in the matter. Personally I can hardley believe that a person wants NO say in the matter.


Why do you find it so hard to believe?  I'm just not surprised by the gross appetites of the human species especially considering my own personal proclivities.

quote:

 What if the Dom decides they want to beat them to death?


It wouldn't be my first choice of activities since it would entail leaving my family, friends and BDSM behind in a rather final, eternal sort of way. I wouldn't be naive and think that no one had a death wish, however.

quote:

Is that going to be OK with you?


It depends. I'd rather 'not' get beaten to death, but I can't think of a better way to go than doing something that I absolutely love and adore. To die on the X when I'm about 100, my blood flowing from thousands of 10 ga. needles .. beats the hell out of getting hit by a bus. You know.. perspective.

quote:

Does there have to be an emotional connection for you to not consider it abuse?


Nope, there just has to be adult consent for me not to consider it abuse.

quote:

 If so how do you know it is real?


If what's real?



quote:

I’m not trying to berate anyone for their life style choice I’m just trying to understand the way others view this. I can’t picture having a Dom who didn’t cherish me and appreate all that I do for him.~Phoenix


You got what you wanted, so that's a good thing. Other people don't want that, so that's good for them. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 9:08:40 PM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline 		My limts [hard limits] and safewords and those things that we have not discussed are my lines. Very cut and dry.
 
Soft limits are meant to be pushed when possible in a safe manner. Otherwise, no concent, no go. If its a 'no go' then its abuse and its crossed a line.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 9:10:58 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KiandPhoenix

What if the Dom decides they want to beat them to death?


Never beat the bitch to death until you've first fucked her like a piece of meat.

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/9/2007 9:53:36 PM   
littlebitxxx


Posts: 732
Status: offline 		I'm with LA on this one...I too draw the line at consent.  There has to be a HUGE trust factor before even going into a relationship so one must trust the Dom not to cross hard limit lines as well.  Discussing a hard limit is equal to agreeing or disagreeing to the amount of hurt that can be caused before harm is done.  And if that line is crossed, the trust is broken and it becomes abuse.

_____________________________

There is no such thing as can't unless it is followed by yet

It is the meaningless little acts that become meaningful in the doing.

The people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind.

(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/10/2007 8:39:51 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		first Phoenix...hi, nice to meet you. :)

now, to answer your question...i draw no lines, i am not one who believes that "true" Dominance and abuse can never entertwine, they certainly can and do, for some. while i am very much loved, valued and cherished by my Master, he also abuses me (intentionally harms or damages, emotionally, mentally or physically). this is because he is One who is inclined to abuse his mate/slave, it is what comes naturally for him and feeds his occasional sadistic urges. the reason i can accept this abuse without permanently breaking down is the fact that i know it comes from love, and that he does not view me as worthless. yes, he has the right to do with me what he wills, no i do not really have a "say" in any signficant decisions, yes i am his property, without rights, for as long as he wishes. these things do not have to equate to being treated like scum, like someone without value. for some of us these things are just part and parcel of slavery.


(in reply to littlebitxxx)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/10/2007 11:39:20 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Some may quibble with my definition, but I classify as true abuse, anything a Dominant does that is -

1) Done in a fit of anger on the Dominant's part,  -and-or

2) Done on a non-consensual basis (and I mean by that, that the submissive didn't consent to it). I never consented to being thrown down a flight of stairs, backwards, for instance. Not only that, never in a million years did I ever fathom that was going to be a part of our D/s relationship, when I "signed on" for it, with my ex-Dominant (so I left). So - the fact it happened means (to me) that it was not consensual. It was not negotiated, and never previously discussed as a possibility in the relationship - by either of us.

**Btw, I don't think abuse is just a realm of Dominants. I think some SAMs (smart -assed, bratty types of submissives) are also engaging in abuse - because with their "bretty" behavior, they are abusing the relationship, IMO - if their Dominant did not "sign on" to be with a "brat" - because in quite a few cases I've read about - that is also definitely non-consensual behavior.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/10/2007 11:49:29 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/10/2007 11:56:20 AM   
ExquisiteFeline


Posts: 124
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

never in a million years did I ever fathom that was going to be a part of our D/s relationship, when I "signed on" for it, with my ex-Dominant (so I left). So - the fact it happened means (to me) that it was not consensual. It was not negotiated, and never previously discussed as a possibility in the relationship - by either of us.





Please explain, this i dont understand what you are saying here?
you signed on to it, wouldnt that mean consensual?

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/10/2007 6:16:37 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		ExquisiteFeline: My ex-Dominant one night, in a fit of anger over me having given my phone number to someone in a bar, tried to throw me down a flight of stairs, backwards. He almost broke my ribs. This was last Fall. He'd never been violent before that (although he did have a temper, and could be petty. But not usually toward me).

I left that night, and never went back (we were living together at the time). We'd both discussed being Poly, and he was actually practicing Poly at the time (had another GF besides me), and he had previously stated he didn't care if I had another partner, too. But when he saw me "flirting" he went "Ballistic". That was not consensual, and not what I would ever term D/s (or BDSM).

Hope that explains what I meant. But not to worry, I just met a great submissive man here at CM (subfever), and things are looking good. I also took my ex-Dominant to court, and got a restraining order, plus he got fined for that incident. My sister is a lawyer, and the judge didn't think it was too funny. But anyway, it's over.

- Susan


< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/10/2007 6:21:48 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ExquisiteFeline)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Draw the Line? - 8/10/2007 9:03:08 PM   
unbroken33


Posts: 56
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		i see a lot of good ideas here.  But for me, i draw the line with the Dom's intent and heart.  Yes, i know that's a real fuzzy line, but it's different for different relationships.  If the intent is to take out anger and rage, without any regard for what You're trying to teach Your sub or Your sub's welfare...then it's ABUSE.  However if You choose to simply ignore my safeword, and go into territory where there's no doubt that i've had way more than i can handle, but with the intent of training and improving Your sub, then it's not abuse.  It's more than pushing limits, but it's not abuse...  Just my 2c

_____________________________

Please, no more serial killers.

(in reply to KiandPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 20
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