RE: Evolution is a Lie? (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 11:20:10 PM)

quote:

Well I belive in Evolution as God has not showed me that he exsists.


And I believe in evolution because God has shown me and I have read the knowledge that He does exist.

quote:

Plenty of people will disagree and put up opposing points of view but if you expect me to see your view and change my line of thought why can you not change your view and change your way of thought and belive what I belive?

It will not be done as most people have been bought up to belive one way or the other.


I, personally, don't wish you to just 'believe' because 'its the truth' - but I would like to know why some people cannot understand that both co-exist.

And I would disagree that the way one is raised leads to a belief. There are many who have turned their back on religon, even though they are raised - and again, many people who turn to religion without having it in their life before.

Education is the key - and knowing that it isn't just what you are told, but that you learn via a whole range of ways. Education and evolution are vital to religion and spirituality just as religion and spirituality are vital to education and evolution.

Choice is the key, and freedom of choice is the only way any truth for an individual can be found.

Peace and Love



darkinshadows -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 11:23:45 PM)

quote:

Except the one theory has a body of empirical evidence pointing to it, and makes predictions that can be validated, and gets revised when the evidence doesn't fit it, and the other one does no such thing.

I'll leave it to the reader to figure out which theory is which.


Whereas, I would say that both have and are equal.

Peace and Love



lonewolf05 -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/4/2005 11:34:53 PM)

anthrosub;

not trying to start anything here...please understand...

but being a devout atheist...i follow right along with the script of star trek;
the belief of God was found to be false. he does not exist.

ok. going now.
take care.



fp2012 -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 2:41:39 AM)

Being a physics major who grew up catholic and now is somewhat agnostic, this thread is very interesting to me. I studied world religions for several years and have found them all valid in their own way. In my opinion, science and religion MUST co-exist. First off, let me explain that I do believe in a higher power (call him what you will, God, Allah, Brahma, etc.) and that he created the universe in which we live. There are things in science that are far too perfect to be sheer coincidence, and the deeper we understand our universe, the more questions are raised. Take a look at the world around us; we can explain why the sky is blue or why rainbows form or the specific wavelengths of light, but we cannot explain it's beauty. That I leave up to religion. And don't even get me started on the uncertainty principle!

However I also believe that God gave us brains that we should be using. To stop asking questions would be wasting this wonderful organ that he gave us. As for evolution, I believe in it, and it has been pretty much accepted as truth. Does that fly in the face of God? No. It simply means that he created life in little pools of water knowing it would eventually lead to human beings. (I take it farther back to the big bang, but that's just me). The church has even accepted evolution. It bugs me to see people taking the bible (or any religious text) literally. There have been heated debates over whether it was really an apple that adam ate, because apples aren't native to the area where eden is thought to have existed. We must realize that all these texts and religions were formed by human beings, and are therefor limited. And, just like a scientific theorem, must be able to change and adapt to new findings.
Anyway, in my mind, science and religion coexist.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein



SirKenin -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 4:23:21 AM)

I am a theistic evolutionist. I believe God exists and I believe He alone started the whole process in motion. I do not think there is enough evidence that the process started itself and personally feel that the theory is full of holes. There is enough reason in the Bible to believe that the six days of creation spoken of do not speak of six literal days, merely six events. There is no doubt in My mind that W/we are not here by accident, but there is also no doubt in My mind that it did not happen in six literal days or even six thousand years. Scientific evidence has amply disproved this theory.



darkinshadows -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 5:19:05 AM)

quote:

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein


I couldn't rightly state that quote, my mind went blank - thank you for reminding.

Peace and Love



anthrosub -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 5:23:04 AM)

dark~angel,
The central point I've been making is aimed at creationists who accept only the biblical version of how everything came to be and have been all along. You have stated you do not accept only the biblical account, so you are not a creationist as I just described. You keep taking my words as talking about people who are not creationists and reply that I'm generalizing people who, like yourself, are more open minded then that and accuse me of being a fundamentalist. Does that help clarify things?

As far as belief is concerned...see Ssilver's post.

anthrosub



darkinshadows -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 6:00:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

dark~angel,
The central point I've been making is aimed at creationists who accept only the biblical version of how everything came to be and have been all along. You have stated you do not accept only the biblical account, so you are not a creationist as I just described. You keep taking my words as talking about people who are not creationists and reply that I'm generalizing people who, like yourself, are more open minded then that and accuse me of being a fundamentalist. Does that help clarify things?

As far as belief is concerned...see Ssilver's post.

anthrosub


I did not assume - your original post mentioned religion and later on christianity - it would have been more helpful for you to have distinquished between what you meant specifically, had you not meant to be misassumed.

ach - disclaimers!...lol

Also - again with the generalisations. Many creationists believe in evolution - and although you may not want to see me as a creationist - it isn't up to you to label what I am. I believe in creation - I believe in God, but that doesn't mean I discount evolution - to me - they are perfectly combined. To stand up against creationists in such a way, you have to learn about them and know exactly what their theory is - and all I can see is a discussion based on loose assumptions and generalisations. I don't want to sound mean anthro, it isn't my intention to pick at your words and I hope you can see a really good discussion coming from this - I totally respect your view and I love your posts - your one of the reasons I come back to read at the forum - but to know creationism is to understand it - and I think that maybe some totally fundemental teachings or loose bits and pieces you have picked up has led you to a generalisation that has no basis of truth.

I also find irony in your post and yet you have the strength and conviction to list such a quote from wise a man as Lao Tzu.

As for Ssilvers post - I did and I responded - it is a pity it cannot be more open to an even deeper discussion!

Peace and Love




knees2you -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 7:07:44 AM)

quote:

Well I belive in Evolution as God has not showed me that he exsists.

Plenty of people will disagree and put up opposing points of view but if you expect me to see your view and change my line of thought why can you not change your view and change your way of thought and belive what I belive?

It will not be done as most people have been bought up to belive one way or the other.



Imtempting~[:)]

You have to seek Ye first the Kingdom of God.
But even if God came Most people would still not Believe.

To many Miracles I've seen to not believe~

Sincerely, Ant[;)]



imtempting -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 8:36:48 AM)

Ahh Knees2you

If God came he could proove he exsisted.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 8:45:02 AM)

Oh, no, please don't tell me it's a touchdown for the atheists.



darkinshadows -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 9:05:35 AM)

And He already did?

*touchdown* (and the crowd goes wild)

Sorry - couldn't resist...lolol

Peace and Love



LadyAngelika -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 9:51:25 AM)

quote:

being a devout atheist


Ok... how is one a devout atheist. That's an oxymoron. Atheism is the lack of theism so what are you devoted to, absence?

I'm an atheist, plain and simple. It's not that I will not believe, I cannot believe. Faith isn't something that I chose or not. It is something I do not have. My life experience has shown me no signs of God in the way that any religion has described him. My life experience has led me to believe that we humans try to put labels on everything and are limited to our very limited perceptions in trying to figure out the great mystery that is our existence. That said, I do respect the perspectives of those who say that they have seen signs of God’s existence. In their perspective, they did. And I’m not pompous enough to consider my perspective superior.

What I have in common with people who have faith is that I don’t think this is all random. I don’t think it’s simplistic. I believe that there are forces behind our existence. I just do not see those forces as the God that is described in Theistic type religions.

I think we limit ourselves by seeing existence with a beginning and an end. Why does there have to be? When my life will end, life will go on. It will not end because I end. I exist within a continuum. Such is the way that I view our existence. There was no beginning and there will be no end. It just will always be. I know this concept is hard for people to understand because we are so used to marking everything with time and space: It’s 4 o’clock. This is my front door. I have a 120G hard drive. It’s my birthday. It’s the end of the world as we know it! Everything is measurable, identifiable so we need to quantify, qualify, measure, identify the origin of our existence and theorise about how it will end. And of course, we are a very curious species. This is not a criticism.

I came to a point where I had to realise that I existed in a reality that was much more complex then I could understand. I think in general when people come to this conclusion, attributing the complexity to a divinity is a natural step. For me, however, that was not the case, and most likely because I disagree with the models that have been presented to me. The only model that remotely makes sense to me is the Tao. It permits me to simply understand the notion of existence in thinking that it’s all part of the Tao, an energy that is generated by everything that makes up our existence. It gives me a feeling of being united and tied into my reality. I borrow from that regularly.

- LA

*edited for a typo



pleasureforHim -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 10:53:02 AM)

Well, this was fun. Let's do the death penalty next.

For my money...bible class is every Wednsday at 7pm..and is meant primarily to teach me how to live my life in greater accordance with God's wishes.

My kid's science class was meant to prepare her for a high school diploma that was demonstrative evidence that she had mastered the basics of the bunsen burner and the theory of evolution. Among other things, such as english grammar and logorithms.

Being a devote Catholic has it's perks. One of them is we do not have to engage in silly arguments about the possibility that Darwin was wrong; although the Church did excommunicate Gallelio. So there.

Keep your religious beliefs offa my kid, and i won't blow raspberries during the homily at your Sunday service. Seems self-evident to me these two -- religion and science -- should proceed one unfettered by the other.

But then, i'm Catholic.

pleasureforHim



lonewolf05 -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 11:13:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

being a devout atheist


Ok... how is one a devout atheist. That's an oxymoron. Atheism is the lack of theism so what are you devoted to, absence?

I'm an atheist, plain and simple. It's not that I will not believe, I cannot believe. Faith isn't something that I chose or not. It is something I do not have. My life experience has shown me no signs of God in the way that any religion has described him. My life experience has led me to believe that we humans try to put labels on everything and are limited to our very limited perceptions in trying to figure out the great mystery that is our existence. That said, I do respect the perspectives of those who say that they have seen signs of God’s existence. In their perspective, they did. And I’m not pompous enough to consider my perspective superior.

What I have in common with people who have faith is that I don’t think this is all random. I don’t think it’s simplistic. I believe that there are forces behind our existence. I just do not see those forces as the God that is described in Theistic type religions.

I think we limit ourselves by seeing existence with a beginning and an end. Why does there have to be? When my life will end, life will go on. It will not end because I end. I exist within a continuum. Such is the way that I view our existence. There was no beginning and there will be no end. It just will always be. I know this concept is hard for people to understand because we are so used to marking everything with time and space: It’s 4 o’clock. This is my front door. I have a 120G hard drive. It’s my birthday. It’s the end of the world as we know it! Everything is measurable, identifiable so we need to quantify, qualify, measure, identify the origin of our existence and theorise about how it will end. And of course, we are a very curious species. This is not a criticism.

I came to a point where I had to realise that I existed in a reality that was much more complex then I could understand. I think in general when people come to this conclusion, attributing the complexity to a divinity is a natural step. For me, however, that was not the case, and most likely because I disagree with the models that have been presented to me. The only model that remotely makes sense to me is the Tao. It permits me to simply understand the notion of existence in thinking that it’s all part of the Tao, an energy that is generated by everything that makes up our existence. It gives me a feeling of being united and tied into my reality. I borrow from that regularly.

- LA

*edited for a typo


----------------

quote:



Ok... how is one a devout atheist. That's an oxymoron. Atheism is the lack of theism so what are you devoted to, absence

-------------------

devout as in i am dedicated to and too mule headed to change my mind.......
YOU are entitled to how you feel. call me a moron and a ox. i don't care. coz i may be. lol.
but i am highly dedicated to the belief that early man became so afraid of his own shadow that he is not even matured enough yet, to figure out he is the top of the food chain and there is no such thing as a deity. the moon scared early man and it stuck with him through the eons.
but some of us----figured out, it is all a hoax and can stand on our own without needing to depend on a deity to get through life. no fear of man, beast or gods.

just MY feelings.
the wolf.......in mind and spirit. the wolf needs no gods. he just lives day to day for mere existence and survival. as do i.
thank you



Mercnbeth -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 11:13:39 AM)

As a fundamental and devote pragmatist who has beth praying for him daily, I pose this question to the evolutionists. I believe "recorded history" goes back 5,000 years. Where is the one example of current evolution? Or is evolution complete? The science of evolution is that nature progresses and weaker versions of biological entities become extinct, leaving stronger versions to assume a position of dominance. Shouldn't that be continuing?

In Homosapiens, the appendix has no know use. The evolutionary principle would seem to point to future Homosapiens being born without it. To my knowledge no one has been born without an appendix. Humans fly with the aid of machines, shouldn't we be evolving wings? Humans go underwater regularly, some die drowning, shouldn't we be evolving gills? The natural "technology" already exists. Why isn't evolutionary nature using it?

Do I think this proves creationism? No. But I think it does offer some interesting talking points.

On a personal aside. I find it interesting that I can't say I believe in god. My reason, the dichotomy of a benevolent deity in light of the evils, destruction, misery, and suffering that's all around. I even find his "book", the bible full of un-godliness. For instance the "merciful" god of the old testament seeing nothing wrong with the killing of the first born Egyptians as part of the passover story; yet condemning Herod who used the example to kill the innocents during the time of Jesus' birth. A tough sell rationalization at best. It is my belief that without religion there would be far less war, death, and destruction now and in the history of mankind.

Yet, I "believe" in life on other planets on "faith". My reasoning is simple. For there not to be life would be such a waste. A waste of what and who's effort would point to a creative deity right?

Maybe it's just the 16 years of catholic education, half of which was after Vatican II. I just can't believe all their BS can be right. I always wonder about all those people who went to hell after eating meat on Friday. Did they get a "reprieve" when that law was repealed?



LadyAngelika -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 11:32:11 AM)

quote:

I always wonder about all those people who went to hell after eating meat on Friday. Did they get a "reprieve" when that law was repealed?


I had a conversation with my mother last night. She announced that my cousin's wife gave birth to a healthy baby girl. She then mentioned that the Christening would be on Labour Day weekend in order to allow most of our dispersed family to attend. I was surprised as I was 17 days old for my own Christening. I asked my mother why they waited so long, as I was under them impression that babies had to be christened quickly as they might end up in limbo if they died before their acceptance into the great family of God. My mom's response was that they changed that rule with Vatican II. I laughed, and laughed, tears rolling from my eyes. Of course my mom got annoyed, thinking I was being disrespectful. But seriously "they changed it"? I mean all of a sudden, the rules or our existence, of the balance between heaven & hell changed? Satan & God sat down and had a little chat and said "We shouldn't be so hard on these poor little babies. It's not their fault that their parents want to wait for the opportune time to have a big shindig for the whole family. Let's give them a free pass for a bit."

I'm not mocking those who believe in God. I'm mocking those who say they represent God's wishes.

- LA



Mercnbeth -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 12:07:00 PM)

quote:

But seriously "they changed it"? I mean all of a sudden, the rules or our existence, of the balance between heaven & hell changed? Satan & God sat down and had a little chat and said "We shouldn't be so hard on these poor little babies. It's not their fault that their parents want to wait for the opportune time to have a big shindig for the whole family. Let's give them a free pass for a bit."


Don't get me started! From buying "pagan babies", to selling "special" dispensations, to some saints (Nicholas for one - Imagine Santa Claus is no longer a saint!) being "downgraded". Now they have "fast-track" sainthood for John Paul II. They frown on and mock an image of the "virgin Mary" on a grilled cheese sandwich, but make a tourist trap out of an image on a shroud.

South Park fans know which religion "got it right"!



Ssilver -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 12:22:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

In Homosapiens, the appendix has no know use. The evolutionary principle would seem to point to future Homosapiens being born without it. To my knowledge no one has been born without an appendix. Humans fly with the aid of machines, shouldn't we be evolving wings? Humans go underwater regularly, some die drowning, shouldn't we be evolving gills? The natural "technology" already exists. Why isn't evolutionary nature using it?



You're forgetting culture. We have medical technology that has greatly reduced selection pressure on something like the appendix. That's not to say that it isn't possible that in the future humans won't have one, but a mutation that removed the appendix wouldn't be nearly as valuable today as it would have been before modern medicine.

Same thing with wings. We don't need them, we have culture that does the lifting for us.




darkinshadows -> RE: Evolution is a Lie? (7/5/2005 1:13:31 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

In Homosapiens, the appendix has no know use. The evolutionary principle would seem to point to future Homosapiens being born without it. To my knowledge no one has been born without an appendix. Humans fly with the aid of machines, shouldn't we be evolving wings? Humans go underwater regularly, some die drowning, shouldn't we be evolving gills? The natural "technology" already exists. Why isn't evolutionary nature using it?



You're forgetting culture. We have medical technology that has greatly reduced selection pressure on something like the appendix. That's not to say that it isn't possible that in the future humans won't have one, but a mutation that removed the appendix wouldn't be nearly as valuable today as it would have been before modern medicine.

Same thing with wings. We don't need them, we have culture that does the lifting for us.


If I remember my biology, the appendix is assumed to be a left over remenant of out fruit eating days - but that would mean that it is our cecum (same thing cows have with bacteria inside) to aid digestion. But it has also been found medically that many animals have an appendix as well as a cecum, which is exact to ours, which since later in this centuary, has led scientists to believe that its possible that an appendix isn't what it was claimed to be.
It has been found that the appendix contains and produces antibodies which fight infection, and at the present time, medicine cannot determine why this is so, or happens. So science is now looking into the fact that the appendix isn't as usless as science theorised and that it is vital to the bodies immune system. So science evolves to try and justify its existance. So one cannot assume that the appendix is going to completely disappear - because it has a use. Wings, however are not necessary to our survival - nor gills - not as yet, anyway.

Peace and Love



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