Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations?

Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 4:02:50 AM)
Do you consider having inclinations toward BDSM activity, and more importantly being Dominant or submissive (or being a Switch) as inhernet an orientation as being heterosexual or homosexual (or bisexual)? Personally, I am not sure - although I do hear people say things like: "I've been this way ever since I can remember - it's just what I am" etc. I tend to think people really are "wired this way", but think maybe that "wiring" is sometimes based more on early environmental factors than biological-since-birth ones (but I am not betting the mortgage on either being a "heavier" influence, necessarily). Something makes me think that BDSM inclinatiions may be slightly more flexible than someone's gay or straight (or bi-sexual) orientation, but I am really just not sure what to think (so I guess I am undecided, with a bias in favor of saying "Yes"). Just wondering what people think. Thanks for any replies. [8\|][:)] - Susan

slaveish -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 4:33:55 AM)
It's part of my personality, being submissive. I trained myself (and life trained me) to be Dominant in my daily world, which can be exhausting and sickening. Well ... at least it was before I realized I was submissive. Now that I know, it makes the rest of my world easier to bear, and I have a safety valve.

SusanofO -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 4:39:09 AM)
slaveish: Thanks so much for the reply. So - if I am interpreting you correctly, you consider being submissive to be more of a personality orientation than a sexual orientation (correct me if I am wrong in concluding this in your reply). I know the two are "connected" and all of that, but that's what I read in your answer. For the record, I consider personalities to be less "hard-wired" than sexual orientations, but research is still open as far as the answer to that question goes, too. I appreciate your answer. - Susan

Rover -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 5:47:14 AM)
This question has been asked often enough, on enough forums, and replied to by enough respondants, that I feel comfortable saying the majority of lifestylers believe that Dominance and submission are innate qualities. I am in that majority. Further, there is growing medical evidence that implies such a thing to be true as well. John

Hisbellaluna -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 6:08:18 AM)
nurture or nature? i don't know...is there a way to weed out the wankers and wanna-be's to take a pure sample? on another front omg Rover has paddles? oh no...run for your lives...hehe

caught4u -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 6:09:30 AM)
i think it is both. i think it starts out biological. i think as people around you recognize your qualities they either enhance those qualities, or try to change them. the lucky ones who are recognized and accepted for who they are get to grow to their full potential, while the unlucky ones who are forced to go against their nature learn to suppress their tendencies causing much stress in their life.

slaveish -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 6:19:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO slaveish: Thanks so much for the reply. So - if I am interpreting you correctly, you consider being submissive to be more of a personality orientation than a sexual orientation (correct me if I am wrong in concluding this in your reply). I know the two are "connected" and all of that, but that's what I read in your answer. For the record, I consider personalities to be less "hard-wired" than sexual orientations, but research is still open as far as the answer to that question goes, too. You are correct, Susan. It is who I ~am~, my personality, my core. It extends, of course, to my sexuality - I have "Dommed" men in bed before (vanilla men looking for a little spice) but it didn't do anything for me. This was before I learned I was submissive. I was following my Dominant course through life, was experimenting with everything in my life, and felt that in order to have a place in the world I had to be tough and take-charge. Of everything. I drank a lot. Used a lot of vices to cover up, fill in, this gaping hole in me. When a man I met from another site told me gently that I was a submissive ... wow. Wham. It all fell into place. I stopped struggling. I stopped drinking. I had this niche, this revelation, that it's perfectly ok to be submissive, and in my case, ultimately necessary. I am much more pleasant to be around, much more confident, much more self-aware and emotionally, mentally, and physically healthy. So to answer your question, to me it is far more than just my sexuality. It is who and what I ~am~. I guess I am more service-oriented, but hey! If service includes kinky sexual service, I am ALL for it!!! (But I'm more into serving and am drawn to particular Dominant personalities than to kinky sex.)

beargonewild -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 6:22:36 AM)
Greetings Susan, I must say this is quite a quetion to post and thought provoking! It is mt own belief and I have read studies stating that sexual orientaion is "hard wired" in a person's psyche. I would have to seriously consider the fact that our BDSM incinations are in some way "hard wired" also. I may be wrong but it appears that a person's BDSM tendancies are strongly influened by enviromental factors to a larger degree then sexual orientation. In my mind, BDSM tendancies and sexuality are linked together yet they are not necessary inclusive to each other. Being Dominant or Submissive or any varition between the two, are simply a facet of the person's personality. This personality we are born with, as we grow and mature into adulthood, our persoanlities are shaped by enviromental influences. Overall I tend to believe that it's the numerous combinations of enviromental factors and inherent qualities which make each of us who we are psychologically. It would be quite interesting to discover if my beliefs are somewhat accurate or totally off the wall!

asubmissiveheart -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 6:24:48 AM)
Great question Susan. I think a lot of this "flexibility" has to do with a mindset. I am not bisexual, I am not interested in men, it is a hard limit and my Lady respects that. For those that are willing and flexible, than that door had to be open to begin with. When it is something that is not even open to be put on the table, guess what? It is not put on the table, nor an option for debate. I also agree with bear, I am hard wired to be straight, period.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 7:08:37 AM)
I agree with Rover :) ACTIVITIES- no, that's like asking if my inclination towards watching movies is innate, and I don't think it really is. RELATIONSHIPS- yes. I don't think Ds orientations are more or less flexible than sexual orientations are. I think there's both more and less flexibility than social pressure would want people to believe. http://www.collarchat.com/m_744252/mpage_1/key_nature%252Cnurture/tm.htm#744266 Do you think you were "born this way"? http://www.collarchat.com/m_691960/mpage_1/key_nature%252Cnurture/tm.htm#691984 naturally Ds? http://www.collarchat.com/m_499963/mpage_1/key_nature%252Cnurture/tm.htm#499979 Nature or nurture? http://www.collarchat.com/m_307130/mpage_1/key_nature%252Cnurture/tm.htm#307130 Do you feel being a dom/me is innate or can be learned? http://www.collarchat.com/m_461558/mpage_1/key_nature%252Cnurture/tm.htm#461558 hard-wired, why why why! http://www.collarchat.com/m_143698/mpage_1/key_born%252Craised/tm.htm#143698 nature versus nurture http://www.collarchat.com/m_760860/mpage_2/key_nature%252Cnurture/tm.htm#761518 born to serve? http://www.collarchat.com/m_468650/mpage_1/key_nature%252Cnurture/tm.htm#468650 nature vs nurture http://www.collarchat.com/m_35901/mpage_1/key_learned%252Cborn/tm.htm#35901 born or learned, how we become dom?

Stephann -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 7:32:15 AM)
As already stated, I think it's both, and yes we've seen this topic a few times. It really depends on what you consider to be inherent, and what you consider to be innate. I think for every 'ultimate' slave, there is still someone who would be even more submissive than that person. The most powerful grandmaster puba Dom still has someone more dominant than they. It would be the nature of the relationships that we enjoy that really define our dominant/submissive qualities. And, like sexuality, I think humans are extremely flexible. A quick peek into a max security prison can give us an honest (if brutal) assessment of exactly how flexible humans are, both in terms of D/s and sexuality. Stephan

IrishMist -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 8:23:04 AM)
quote: I tend to think people really are "wired this way", but think maybe that "wiring" is sometimes based more on early environmental factors than biological-since-birth ones Sorry, but I am of the belief that this is something that is inherent in each of us; it just takes a bit more to bring it to the surface in some ( and I do not mean that in a bad way )

thetammyjo -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 8:25:24 AM)
My personality was formed through innate factors as well as experiences. My doing BDSM is a matter of my feeling a connection to that group of activities and relationships dynamics, admitting those feelings to myself, and following through on these feelings. I did many things when I was younger that resembled much of what I do now but I was not fully conscious of my choices and did not use certain considerations that I feel are necessary now (like full consent). My interests were unusual for my sex and my gender in my culture so in that sense I was not traditional but personally I would not say that I was in BDSM then because I really feel it is a matter of self-awareness and self-acceptance.

IrishMist -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 8:26:46 AM)
~~ Sorry, a bit off topic ~~ Tammyjo...I love the new pic

LadyEllen -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 8:27:08 AM)
I'm not sure in all this that we should not also consider the political and social implications of nature vs nurture. For the issue is, if something which is generally disapproved of in the wider society can be argued to be due to nurture, then it is argued that a cure for such characteristics and behaviours may be engineered, for the "good" of those deviating from societal norms. Such a backdrop and reasoning brought many homosexuals to be what amounts to being tortured in the post war era, by way of aversion therapies including and especially including electric shock treatment. Needless to say, all such patients were cured in that they thereafter denied any homosexual tendencies - a wise denial, since relapse would require further "treatment". The view nowadays is that homosexuality is hard wired of course. Homosexuality as a psychopathological condition has been erased from the textbooks. But it took good science to reach that conclusion, resisting societal view of acceptable and therefore natural behaviour. In the meantime as a transsexual, I am currently insane by way of nurture, but from research may soon be rendered sane as a product of nature. The point is, that given such a history and the cultural backdrop to our societies, it is most definitely in all our interests to ascribe our tastes to nature, whether or not we feel this to be so. E

BitaTruble -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 8:34:27 AM)
~FR~ I'd have to wonder why my siblings aren't all submissive. I'm the only one who turned to D/s to find my own truths and to seek fulfillment through that venue so as to be able to thrive, so I don't put a lot of stock in nurture over nature. Celeste

Archer -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 8:41:53 AM)
The problem with trying to prove nurture is that given the exact same stimulus no two beings percieve it in the same way. Nor do the thought processes of two beings attempt the same reactions in the same order or degree. I believe we have a combination in D/s orientations nature, and nurture. Babies are entirely dependant and try different coping skills to get their needs met. We go with what works. If crying works we go with it, if being quiet works we go with that. Far too many individal thought processes involved to test reliably what happens with nurture during early child deveopment. So not being able to form a reliably insulated test group there is no reliable way to remove or standardize all variables not being tested for.

SlaveSubtoserve -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 9:13:51 AM)
....with me it always seemed i was always this way until a bit of therapy uncovered some things - think its combo of both nature and environment/nurture though i have read some research that points to identifying the only common trait across all serious BDSM practitioners is having grown up in at least a somewhat repressed emotional family environment- but that would seem to apply so generally so....... for me it is also very much exclusively a sexual/love/female relationship orientation and not at all general personality.....

AAkasha -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 9:22:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild Greetings Susan, I must say this is quite a quetion to post and thought provoking! It is mt own belief and I have read studies stating that sexual orientaion is "hard wired" in a person's psyche. I would have to seriously consider the fact that our BDSM incinations are in some way "hard wired" also. I may be wrong but it appears that a person's BDSM tendancies are strongly influened by enviromental factors to a larger degree then sexual orientation. In my mind, BDSM tendancies and sexuality are linked together yet they are not necessary inclusive to each other. Being Dominant or Submissive or any varition between the two, are simply a facet of the person's personality. This personality we are born with, as we grow and mature into adulthood, our persoanlities are shaped by enviromental influences. Overall I tend to believe that it's the numerous combinations of enviromental factors and inherent qualities which make each of us who we are psychologically. It would be quite interesting to discover if my beliefs are somewhat accurate or totally off the wall! People keep talking of bdsm in terms of "personality." When I see that word and the definitions people use, I see BDSM as viewed as personality orientation or the role one assumes in their intimate relationships. I am the "dominant" partner - I have most of the control, I make most of the decisions, my partner is the "submissive" partner, he follows my lead and bends to my will. If you looked at my siblings, sure, each could be defined as "dominant" or "submissive personalities in their relationships on some spectrum. Ok - I get that. But to me, it's far beyond that - it's a sensuality and a need that thrives on power exchange that is created or maintained for the sole purpose of satisfying a desire I have -- deep down - to see a man surrender or suffer to torments that I create. This is far, far beyond any issue of "personality" -- it's not a "sex drive" per se as it may or may not include sex, but it's a "prey drive" that requires the physical participation of a willing "victim." These urges must be satisfied or I get irritable or distracted. They must be satisfied in addition to my sexual needs (orgasm). Whether or not they overlap just depends. Now this has nothing to do with my personality. Is it just merely "topping"? Sure, one could argue that. But I think to sum up our orientations just on "personality" kind of leaves us with a whole host of orientations who really have nothing kinky in their portfolio. In fact, it seems that the "kink" is now becoming secondary to the "orientation" for many. Femdoms are "femdoms" because they want control in relationships -- hell, I know a lot of women who are the boss in their relationship and regularly "hen peck" their man, but it's NOT kinky (sadly, many sub men "fall" for these controlling, bitchy types, hoping that deep down, there's a femdom buried inside --- when in reality, she's just a bitch or control freak). Or, femdoms are "femdoms" because they want to be pampered and get their way and want a man to cater to them. That's fine too, but let's not forget, some of us are femdoms because we're freaking kinky. Akasha

vield -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 9:31:38 AM)
Again, many interesting points of view. "personally I am not sure..." in my opinion is the best answer to this question. I have seen myself go through many changes of what I sought, needed, craved and was open to and was limited by, in both BD/SM inclinations and in sexual acceptances over the years. One may question if then the changes were hard wired or environmentally based. Naturally there will be many points of view about this too. I do not worry about which point of view is popular, politically correct, or frowned upon. If it is right for me to enjoy something or someone, that is right no matter which power roles or genders are involved.

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