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Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 10:32:35 AM   
Estring


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Another example of flawed data being used to promote the hysteria of global warming.
I wonder which will happen first; People will admit they were wrong, or even that the debate is not over in regards to global warming, or that the world will actually end because of global warming? Hmm, tough one.

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 11:12:25 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Al Gore lied???? Now really, who is surprised about that?

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 11:26:52 AM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		I for one, am shocked...simply shocked. 

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 11:55:49 AM   
pahunkboy


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the rain here practically eats the paint off of cars!

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 12:13:10 PM   
Sinergy


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Weird.

I could find nothing in the transcript of a right-wing talk radio station broadcast which proves that Al Gore knowingly and intentionally committed fraud.  Simply that a statistical re-sampling of information going back 100 years has reordered the hottest years on record, which changes a statistic he cited in the movie he produced.

Seems like a bit of a stretch to connect the two, but if it works for the unthinking lackeys of conservative talk radio, go for it.

Sinergy


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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 12:18:16 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		So I guess using faulty data to support your theory is okay with you? Hmm, wonder why you didn't cut Bush the same slack?

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 12:24:07 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

So I guess using faulty data to support your theory is okay with you? Hmm, wonder why you didn't cut Bush the same slack?


There is a vast amount of information about global warming, Estring.  You are stridently arguing about one single data point, as well as accusing a person of committing fraud.  I dont see much difference between 10 of the hottest years on record being, in fact, 9 of the hottest years on record in the past 14.

There is almost a complete lack of evidence to suggest that WMDs were in Iraq, that Iraq and Al Qaeda have anythign to do with each other, and a wealth of evidence to suggest that the Bush administration massaged the data they had as much as they could to spin it.  There is enough evidence to allow a US attorney to file fraud charges against many of the main players in the administration.

If you review my posts you will see the links I have cited.  Please review those and if you still have questions get back to me if the difference is unclear to you.

Until then, I suspect Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh has an upgrade of software for you to  download.

Sinergy

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 12:32:07 PM   
abusablepaintoy


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Status: offline 		All this debate could be drastically simplified if only people actually followed the tenets of the scientific method.  From the article:

quote:


One of the main recommendations I’ve consistently made both to NASA and to journals is that when people publish articles they should have to archive the data as they used it. The exact providence of their data if they downloaded it from an internet archive they should have to post the URL of the place where they got the data and the date they downloaded it so you can know the exact version they got in case the versions change. And, they should archive the code in which they obtained the calculations.
This is not by any means an impossible or far-fetched set of protocols........
 
So, I think there’s every reason to require NASA and other contributors to climate science to improve their game in terms of how they provide disclosure to other readers and other researchers of their methodology and data.



If all these climatology researchers (on both sides) would disclose the raw data they used, and the formulas they use to analyze the data that leads them to their conclusions, we could have peer-reviewed discussion of methodologies and get much better and consistent data.  Part of the whole peer-reviewed process is after a discovery, you publish how you got the results so other people can verify them.  I can understand in situations where there is an economic impact such as in biomedical research, but when it is publicly funded research by a government organization like NASA, they have an obligation to make available to anyone their processes, so that people can analyze their methodology to ensure it is consistent and reproducible. (More information here)

Oh wait, there is an economic impact.  Ticket sales of movies, public speaking on the terrors of global warming, panic-fueled legislation designed to make people feel better with little or no basis in scientific fact that uses our tax money....  Nevermind, I retract my statement.  Got to keep the global warming industry working, after all!

But seriously, these simple steps (and I remember reading a post a couple days back about an open-source climatology analysis program) would clear up much of the rhetoric and politicalization of this subject and get things back to concrete issues, instead of our current situation full of emotional arguments and ad hominem attacks that preclude intelligent discussion.  Only then can we find a true solution, when we know the facts backed up by hard data.

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 12:51:27 PM   
mrbob726


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Status: offline 		What bothers me even more, is that neither list (original OR revised) supports Mr Gore's statement that "9 of the 10 hottest years in the US have occurred since 1995" -

(***edited to add the lines below, and spelling)
(from the link pointed to by the original poster)

quote:

Now, the ten hottest years on record in the U.S., beginning with the hottest year, are: 1934, 1998, 1921, 2006, 1931, 1999, 1953, 1990, 1938 and 1939.

Before the revision, that list read: 1998, 1934, 2006, 1921, 1931, 1999, 1953, 2001, 1990 and 1938. The re-ranking completely knocked 2001 off the top 10 list.


< Message edited by mrbob726 -- 8/17/2007 1:15:13 PM >

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 1:06:07 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		Hmm. Al Gore lied, polar bears died.

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 1:11:18 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Well every 10-20,000 years we have an ice age then a warming.
This has been happening since our ancesters were pond scum.
I'm really not too worried about it.
It's most probably caused by solar cycles anyway and we can't do anything about that.
The fact that the other planets are heating up at the same rate as Earth doesn't help all the "Global Warming" fanatics and their "cause."
Probably in 20 years Meatball will have to move back to England from Holland.

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 1:18:49 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		Popeye, don't confuse people with facts. It is so much more comfortable to react with emotion and fear than to make decisions based on facts. What is the matter with you.

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 1:19:34 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726

What bothers me even more, is that neither list (original OR revised) supports Mr Gores statement that "9 of the 10 hottest years in the US have occurred sinch 1995" -

(***edited to add the lines below)
(from the link pointed to by the original poster)

quote:

Now, the ten hottest years on record in the U.S., beginning with the hottest year, are: 1934, 1998, 1921, 2006, 1931, 1999, 1953, 1990, 1938 and 1939.

Before the revision, that list read: 1998, 1934, 2006, 1921, 1931, 1999, 1953, 2001, 1990 and 1938. The re-ranking completely knocked 2001 off the top 10 list.



I haven't seen the Gore film but hot years don't prove or disprove climate change, one of the predicted outcomes of climate change is unpredictable weather and disppearance of predictable seasons. The unpredictable seasons does appear to be happening and is causing a lot of problems with farming in Europe. Too much rain or not enough rain, too much sun or not enough sun. Summer weather in winter, torrential rains at the height of summer, frosts at harvest time. One thing is for certain, something is awray and I know that is not proof but at one time, hot year or not, the seasons were like the seasons they were supposed to be.

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 1:38:20 PM   
philosophy


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...ok, what do we generally agree on?

......global warming is a natural phenomenon. It is affected by many natural events ranging from cows farting to volcano emissions and the solar wind.
Yup, that seems pretty clear.
.........There is a difference of opinion as to whether  or not human activity has a significent effect on it.
Yup, thats a  matter of record.
.....global warming is in a warming cycle right about now.
Well, a bit more arguable but both sides concede evidence that supports this.
......can humanity do anything about it?
Hmmmm, not sure, but see the next bit.......
.....should humanity do anything about it?
Finally here's the point where the disagreements spring from.
If it is something we should do, then it has to be a global effort, because it is clearly a global phenomenon. Until we figure out a way to do things globally then we'll probably cock it up. Some people honourably argue that doing things globally can be done effectively in an ad hoc way, others argue for a standing organisation to achieve such things. Until that argument is resolved then many other matters can't be resolved.....global warming is one of them.

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 1:53:04 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Whether there is an agreement or not, the modern flat earth society seems to think we can go on consuming and living like we do while the human population dxpotentially grows. They might think that a few million other Asians or Africans aren't going to affect their life style but they would think that because they are flat earthers. Even now if every Chinese person consumed what the average westerner consumed the earth would be a desert.

The real challenge is to consume less and one has to start at home with that one but the people who will win the greatest prize are those that understand we need to consume less and make a virtue from it and create products and energy sources that respond to that need. The flat earthers will keep their oil and heads in the sand but sooner or later, if they remain part of the problem, they will become obsolete like their attitudes.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/17/2007 1:54:58 PM >

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 2:02:15 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Popeye, don't confuse people with facts. It is so much more comfortable to react with emotion and fear than to make decisions based on facts. What is the matter with you.


EString, true, we wouldn't want to do that or they'd have to refashion their tin foil hats with a spout on top to let out the steam.
"Al Gore sucks!"
"TwEEEEEET!"

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 3:22:48 PM   
ChainsandFreedom


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Status: offline 		ABUSABLEPAINTOY: how can you go from this:
quote:

there is an economic impact.  Ticket sales of movies, public speaking on the terrors of global warming, panic-fueled legislation designed to make people feel better with little or no basis in scientific fact that uses our tax money....  Nevermind, I retract my statement.  Got to keep the global warming industry working


to this
quote:

the rhetoric and politicalization of this subject and get things back to concrete issues, instead of our current situation full of emotional arguments and ad hominem attacks that preclude intelligent discussion


You know damn well just like everyone else that the money tied into the 'global warming industry' is the billions (trillons) of dollars invested in autos, electricity, industrial, energy, ect...to posture about one man and an indipendant movie representing the entire 'global warming industry' makes you look like exactly like the kind of sensationalist you pretend to be arguing against.

You've got to be able to take the media around you and understand it, and the expert data, a basic lesson of high school science and reading classes which all point toward global warming before you can argue the finer points of empirical accountability. Anybody in a position to create empircal data in the first place has moved a decade beyond your 'still up for debate' hypothesis. You look like an undereducated kid parroting what someone told you about a topic your position betray's your inability to understand

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 3:28:54 PM   
ChainsandFreedom


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Status: offline 		dollars to donuts everyone on this thread who doubts global warming isnt smart enough to disseminate the data they refute.
Garunteed they all drive wasteful cars their ego and cash cant afford to replace, or work for a polluting industry and fear for their paycheck, or have some other biased personal reason for their position.
From the ice caps to the atlantic conveyor to contemporary tempeture and storm fluctuations, there is so much data to be alarmed about with regaurds to global warming not a single person intellegant enough to be informed who ISNT biased is at least a little alarmed.
Hell, even if you ARNT smart enough to follow along with the data and the experts, what would you have to loose by concieding something needs to be done?
The only reason so many people support your position on talk radio and this forum is because most people who have some clue whats going on have stopped trying to enlighten the willfully ignorant like you.

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 3:32:38 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		I'm sorry, I lost count of the logical fallacies after the NTS in the 3rd sentence of post #17.  Did you have a rational point?

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RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards - 8/17/2007 3:40:32 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		I'm absolutely not smart enough (actually, more like not educated on this topic) to digest data on this topic. I freely admit it.
 
But ... if there is global warming, it must have missed South Texas this year. We have been cool and rainy just about all summer. In July a grand total of three hours over 94 degrees. Our average 3pm temperature was 86 degrees in July, when it's usually in the high 90's. We haven't hit 100 degrees yet un August, which is very unusual, as generally, it hits 100 just about every day from the beginning of August until mid-September.
 
Todays high in Houston, 87 degrees ... in August. You must be kidding. That is usually the low for this time.
 
Perhaps it's semi-global warming ... or maybe in H-Town, we are just too cool!!!

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