RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (Full Version)

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abusablepaintoy -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 4:01:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainsandFreedom
You know damn well just like everyone else that the money tied into the 'global warming industry' is the billions (trillons) of dollars invested in autos, electricity, industrial, energy, ect...to posture about one man and an indipendant movie representing the entire 'global warming industry' makes you look like exactly like the kind of sensationalist you pretend to be arguing against.

Umm, where exactly in my post did I even mention Al Gore or his movie?  Enlighten me please.

quote:


You've got to be able to take the media around you and understand it, and the expert data, a basic lesson of high school science and reading classes which all point toward global warming before you can argue the finer points of empirical accountability. Anybody in a position to create empircal data in the first place has moved a decade beyond your 'still up for debate' hypothesis. You look like an undereducated kid parroting what someone told you about a topic your position betray's your inability to understand


If the "expert data" is based on faulty original measurements, (for reasons such as measuring stations being moved or being placed next to a/c heating units) or the algorithms they use to "analyze" the data are incorrect, that violates basic "high school science and reading class" logic.  Like I said, one of the basic tenets of the scientific method is reproducability of results, which requires open disclosure of data used and methodology. 

As to how can I make the comments?  It simply illustrates my point that people are taking advantage of sensationalized panic-inducing pronouncements based off faulty science and capitalizing on it for their own gain, whether it be media attention, monetary gains, research grants or political power, (it isn't limited to climate change either).  That is why we need everyone to open up their data and methodology for peer review - that is good science.  The point that philosophy makes - the important question is what should we do about climate change of ANY kind, and we can't intelligently answer it if the information we have is inaccurate.  If it is so important and affects the world, why are people hiding how they achieved the results?  They should be trumpeting it from the rooftops, not actively trying to keep people from the information.

Oh, and as for your second paragraph:
quote:

instead of our current situation full of emotional arguments and ad hominem attacks that preclude intelligent discussion


This is exactly what I am talking about.




farglebargle -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 4:17:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

So I guess using faulty data to support your theory is okay with you? Hmm, wonder why you didn't cut Bush the same slack?


Do you draw a distinction between the raw data, and the processed, interpreted data -- as you are discussing in this case.

Did Gore *create* either the raw data, or its interpretation?

Bush *CREATED* the lies he used to defraud Congress into Authorizing the use of force in Iraq.

I think there your analogy breaks down.







ChainsandFreedom -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 4:52:38 PM)

paintoy

don't mean to personally attack you. It's people who share your view and consclusions in general I'm arguing aganst. If I'm offensive, I hope you dont take it personally.

citing a NASA mistake (and ignoring all the other unempirical climate-related NASA controversies that have made the news in the last two years) is hardly a reason to condemn one of the most unversally studied and unified scientific consensus's that history has ever known.

quote:

Ticket sales of movies, public speaking on the terrors of global warming, panic-fueled legislation designed to make people feel better with little or no basis in scientific fact that uses our tax money..

-If your not alluding to Al Gore than you don't know enough about the popular players in the issue to be writing about it at all. Dont play stupid. Your position does that for you.

quote:

If the "expert data" is based on faulty original measurements, (for reasons such as measuring stations being moved or being placed next to a/c heating units) or the algorithms they use to "analyze" the data are incorrect, that violates basic "high school science and reading class" logic.  Like I said, one of the basic tenets of the scientific method is reproducability of results, which requires open disclosure of data used and methodology. 


- So many experts are concerned and have shown so much data to illustrate global warming, the fact one data-set was mistaken doesnt over-ride the results. If anything, it illustrates that so many poeple have studied the topic basic human error eventually effected one out of a great many projects-good thing we have the other thousands of experiments and observations you arnt listening to account for it.

There is so much data arguing for the conclusion of gloabal warming you can cross-reference different types of obesrvations: satillete images, weather records, salinity levels, ice cores, tree rings, ect. Throwing all this out because one observation was faulty that just happens to come from a group with high name recognition does not suggest you know how to evaulate this topic critically.

quote:

  illustrates my point that people are taking advantage of sensationalized panic-inducing pronouncements based off faulty science and capitalizing on it for their own gain, whether it be media attention, monetary gains, research grants or political power


The 'faulty science' you're worried about is why observations and experimental results have to be reproducable to be considered credible and why so many different forms of observations have taken place all suggesting the same conclusion.
Climate change would have to be exagerated and given undue attention to be sensationalized, which isn't the case. Whats sensationalized is this NASA mistake or the miniscule minority of scientific hacks and industry finaced yes-men who give head-in-the-sand side attention at all.

Name one household celebrity who's gotten more of their media exposure from climate change than anything else. No one. Cameron Diaz and Gore were already rich and famous. Nobodies taking advantage by trying to induce a rightful sense of panic except the penguins and the farmers.

There is no money and fame in the cause untill we start investing in the technology advocated Climate change is not big money nor is it giving anyone their 'fifteen minutes' and you're wrong to think people advocate on its behalf for selfish reasons-theres nothing for them to selfishly covet.

Also, you talk about grant money: grant money comes to professors, who have tenure, and could study whatever the hell they want. Yet they continue studying climate change, even though most of the tradtional cash cows of the grant industry, corporations,will not give them grants for this reasearch. Maybe you're confusing grant money with the salaries of corporate yes-men.

The paragraph you called ad-hominem:
To spell it out for you again:
You're seemingly unintellegant for taking the view on global warming that you do because non of the evidence supports your stance. By taking one studies mistakes out of a context of near 100% argeement by experts and throwing about assertations about empirical accountability, you are making yourself to appear to be unaware of the nature of this sort of scientific discourse at large. Thus, my assertation that you are throwing around terms like ad-hominem mistakenly.

What I didn't mention is that all grant proposals and published results must go into their methodolgy (and raw data) as a part of the process for peer-review and the objective reproduction of results. Because you are apparently taking the media-created abstracts as gosspel you are unaware that your issue with methodology has already been adressed by the scientific community, as it is a fundimental tennant of the scientific method. NASA's algorithim is propietary knowledge, but their use of weather stations is their methodolgy, and the tempeture readouts/geographic location of these weather stations is their raw data. This is why whomever refuted the results was able to refute them in the first place.




ChainsandFreedom -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 4:59:33 PM)

caitlyn:

you're observation that the weather in texas has been lousy lately is why most contemporary 'global warming' discussion uses the term 'climate change' in place of 'global warming'.
As the globe warms, it affects the weather locally in Texas, causing 'climate changes' which often arn't warm, but cold and wet and stormy.




Sinergy -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:05:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I think there your analogy breaks down.



Sadly, his analogy broke down the name of the thread.

"House of Cards" is a viciously misused statement used by this administration each and every time they want to destroy the credibility of anything or anybody.  Which is then parroted and downloaded to the loyal dittoheads who prefer to not put their brains in gear in the morning and actually make a discernment that some blathering idiot on the radio tells them what to believe.

I personally have thought the Right-wing needed to start working out some new material years ago, but their attitude is generally an inarticulate, spoiled-brat, whiney, "Thats our story and we're sticking to it" which got old
and decayed years ago.

But hey, if it works for the mindless drones of Talk Radio, keep it up.

Sinergy




Level -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:38:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

So I guess using faulty data to support your theory is okay with you? Hmm, wonder why you didn't cut Bush the same slack?


Do you draw a distinction between the raw data, and the processed, interpreted data -- as you are discussing in this case.

Did Gore *create* either the raw data, or its interpretation?

Bush *CREATED* the lies he used to defraud Congress into Authorizing the use of force in Iraq.

I think there your analogy breaks down.


But didn't Clinton and Gore "create" the same lies about Iraq? They certainly claimed Iraq was after (if not possessing) WMDs, and behaving as terroristic.




Owner59 -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:40:23 PM)

 For the mouth-breathers out there,....

Even the White House is admitting to global warming...

You`re speaking from 5 year old talking points.

These links will bring you up to speed

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6334

http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/415188

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2023835.stm

http://www.nrdc.org/media/pressreleases/020603b.asp

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20020603/ai_n10780883







Sinergy -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:42:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

But didn't Clinton and Gore "create" the same lies about Iraq? They certainly claimed Iraq was after (if not possessing) WMDs, and behaving as terroristic.



Can you pick the one, who allegedly defrauded Congress and violated their oath of office in order to invade Iraq, out of a police line-up?

Sinergy

p.s.  Jon Stewart was nice enough to show Cheney explaining 9 years ago that invading Iraq would be a bad idea to the news media.  Too funny, all his reasons for not doing it 9 years ago turned out to be extremely prescient.




farglebargle -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:44:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

So I guess using faulty data to support your theory is okay with you? Hmm, wonder why you didn't cut Bush the same slack?


Do you draw a distinction between the raw data, and the processed, interpreted data -- as you are discussing in this case.

Did Gore *create* either the raw data, or its interpretation?

Bush *CREATED* the lies he used to defraud Congress into Authorizing the use of force in Iraq.

I think there your analogy breaks down.


But didn't Clinton and Gore "create" the same lies about Iraq? They certainly claimed Iraq was after (if not possessing) WMDs, and behaving as terroristic.


If you'd lower yourself to defending these traitors, please use the same indicator for each item as your rebuttal.

i.e: Defend overt act "A" in a paragraph entitled "A".

Overt Acts

A. On December 9, 2001, CHENEY announced on NBC's Meet the Press that "it was pretty well confirmed" that lead 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta had met the head of Iraqi intelligence in Prague in April 2001, which statement was, as CHENEY well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, because it was based on a single witness's uncorroborated allegation that had not been fully investigated by U.S. intelligence agencies.

B. On July 15, 2002, POWELL stated on Ted Koppel's Nightline: "What we have consistently said is that the President has no plan on his desk to invade Iraq at the moment, nor has one been presented to him, nor have his advisors come together to put a plan to him," which statement was deliberately false and misleading in that it deceitfully implied the President was not planning an invasion of Iraq when, as POWELL well knew, the President was close to finalizing detailed military plans for such an invasion that he had ordered months previously.

C. On August 26, 2002, CHENEY made numerous false and fraudulent statements including: "Simply stated there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us," when, as CHENEY well knew, this statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that the IC's then prevailing assessment was that Iraq had neither nuclear weapons nor a reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

D. On September 7, 2002, appearing publicly with Blair, BUSH claimed a recent IAEA report stated that Iraq was "six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon" and "I don't know what more evidence we need," which statements were made without basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) the IAEA had not even been present in Iraq since 1998; and (2) the report the IAEA did write in 1998 had concluded there was no indication that Iraq had the physical capacity to produce weapons-usable nuclear material or that it had attempted to obtain such material.

E. On September 8, 2002, on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, RICE asserted that Saddam Hussein was acquiring aluminum tubes that were "only suited" for nuclear centrifuge use, which statement was deliberately false and fraudulent, and made with reckless indifference to the truth in that it omitted to state the following material facts: (1) the U.S. intelligence community was deeply divided about the likely use of the tubes; (2) there were at least fifteen intelligence reports written since April 2001 that cast doubt on the tubes' possible nuclear-related use; and (3) the U.S. Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts had concluded, after analyzing the tubes's specifications and the circumstances of the Iraqis' attempts to procure them, that the aluminum tubes were not well suited for nuclear centrifuge use and were more likely intended for artillery rocket production.

F. On September 8, 2002, RUMSFELD stated on Face the Nation: "Imagine a September 11th, with weapons of mass destruction. It's not three thousand, it's tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children," which statement was deliberately fraudulent and misleading in that it implied without reasonable basis and in direct contradiction to then prevailing intelligence that Saddam Hussein had no operational relationship with al Qaeda and was unlikely to provide weapons to terrorists.

G. On September 19, 2002, RUMSFELD told the Senate Armed Services Committee that "no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people than the regime of Saddam Hussein," which statement was, as Rumsfeld well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) Hussein had not acted aggressively toward the United States since his alleged attempt to assassinate President George H. W. Bush in 1993; (2) Iraq's military forces and equipment were severely debilitated because of UN sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War; (3) the IC's opinion was that Iraq's sponsorship of terrorists was limited to ones whose hostility was directed toward Israel; and (4) Iran, not Iraq, was the most active state sponsor of terrorism.

H. On October 1, 2002, the defendants caused the IC's updated classified National Intelligence Estimate to be delivered to Congress just hours before the beginning of debate on the Authorization to Use Military Force. At the same time, the defendants caused an unclassified "White Paper" to be published which was false and misleading in many respects in that it failed to include qualifying language and dissents that substantially weakened their argument that Iraq posed a serious threat to the United States.

I. On October 7, 2002, in Cincinnati, Ohio, BUSH made numerous deliberately misleading statements to the nation, including stating that in comparison to Iran and North Korea, Iraq posed a uniquely serious threat, which statement BUSH well knew was false and fraudulent in that it omitted to state the material fact that a State Department representative had been informed just three days previously that North Korea had actually already produced nuclear weapons. The defendants continued to conceal this information until after Congress passed the Authorization to Use Military Force against Iraq.

J. Between September 1, 2002, and November 2, 2002, BUSH traveled the country making in excess of thirty congressional-campaign speeches in which he falsely and fraudulently asserted that Iraq was a "serious threat" which required immediate action, when as he well knew, this assertion was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth.

K. In his January 28, 2003 State of the Union address, BUSH announced that the "British have recently learned that Iraq was seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa" which statement was fraudulent and misleading and made with reckless disregard for the truth, in that it falsely implied that the information was true, when the CIA had advised the administration more than once that the allegation was unsupported by available intelligence.

L. In a February 5, 2003, speech to the UN, POWELL falsely implied, without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, that, among other things: (1) those who maintained that Iraq was purchasing aluminum tubes for rockets were allied with Saddam Hussein, even though POWELL well knew that both Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts and State Department intelligence analysts had concluded that the tubes were not suited for nuclear centrifuge use; and (2) Iraq had an ongoing cooperative relationship with al Qaeda, when he well knew that no intelligence agency had reached that conclusion.

M. On March 18, 2003, BUSH sent a letter to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate which asserted that further reliance on diplomatic and peaceful means alone would not either: (1) adequately protect United States national security against the "continuing threat posed by Iraq" or (2) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant UN Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, which statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that, as BUSH well knew, the U.S. intelligence community had never reported that Iraq posed an urgent threat to the United States and there was no evidence whatsoever to prove that Iraq had either the means or intent to attack the U.S. directly or indirectly. The statement was also false because, as BUSH well knew, the UN weapons inspectors had not found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and wanted to continue the inspection process because it was working well.

N. In the same March 18, 2003 letter, BUSH also represented that taking action pursuant to the Resolution was "consistent with continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001," which statement was entirely false and without reasonable basis in that, as BUSH well knew, Iraq had no involvement with al Qaeda or the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 371.





Level -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:47:39 PM)

Sinergy: your post didn't answer my question [:D]
 
fb: I'm not "defending" anyone..... just pointing out the fact that the words "Iraq", "terror", and "WMD" did not begin the day Bush took office.




Owner59 -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:49:39 PM)

Look out!! Fargle`s reved up...lol




Level -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:51:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Look out!! Fargle`s reved up...lol


He can either type incredibly fast, or he had that post at the ready [:D]




farglebargle -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:51:48 PM)

Meh. I cut and paste that.

It's not like the charges are going to change. Just going to be more as time goes on.

( The unlawful domestic spying comes to mind. )




Sinergy -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:52:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Sinergy: your post didn't answer my question [:D]
 
fb: I'm not "defending" anyone..... just pointing out the fact that the words "Iraq", "terror", and "WMD" did not begin the day Bush took office.


True, but it is not news.  Al Qaeda detonated a truck bomb in the WTC (forget which President) that vaporized and destroyed the Anthrax payload.  Annoying, but not devastating.

My point is that all of these Presidents knew about Al Qaeda, but only one of them did not feel his oath of office applied to his decisions.

Sinergy




Saraheli -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:53:52 PM)

wrong account again




Arpig -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 5:59:55 PM)

quote:

I could find nothing in the transcript of a right-wing talk radio station broadcast which proves that Al Gore knowingly and intentionally committed fraud.  Simply that a statistical re-sampling of information going back 100 years has reordered the hottest years on record, which changes a statistic he cited in the movie he produced.

Well Gore did claim that 9 of the 10 hottest years occured since 1995...and according to the original NASA data only 4 of the 10 hottest years occured since 1995...ergo my assertion that Gore lied...what he said is untrue, therefore he lied...either that or he was just repeating an assertion without having had his researchers check the data, rather sloppy don't you think, especially since he is presenting the bullshit he espouses in his film as the truth...which the data rather clearly shows is not the case.




farglebargle -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 6:14:04 PM)

Brad Plumer summarized nicely just how foolish the right’s reaction to this meaningless story really is.

quote:


1998 went from being listed as 0.01 degrees warmer than 1934 to being listed as 0.02 degrees cooler. That means 1934 is back to being the “official” hottest U.S. year on record, although it’s still a statistical tie. Some of the other U.S. years in this decade were also downgraded slightly. This all had virtually no bearing on the global temperature record, in which 2005 is still the hottest year and Al Gore’s claim that nine of the ten hottest years in history have occurred since 1995 is still operative. […]


Of course, NO-ONE can tell me what the planet's temperature *IS*, and if y'all don't know that ( Truthers and Deniers both... ) y'all don't know ANYTHING.

I still suggest we learn to answer that simple question: "What *IS* the temperature of Earth?"





popeye1250 -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 6:15:24 PM)

There's one thing that everyone's overlooking here.
When will Al Gore grow a pony tail ala Ward "Tonto" Churchill?
You can't "really" be on the left without a pony tail.




farglebargle -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 6:32:56 PM)

Longhaired Redneck
By David Allen Coe
>From Dan ([email protected])

Intro: G

Country DJ's knows that I'm an outlaw.
They'd never come to see me in this dive.
Where bikers stare at cowboys who are laughen' at the hippies.
Who are prayen' they'll get out of here alive.

The loud mouth in the corners gett'en to me.
Talking about my earrings and my hair.
I guess he aint read the sign that says I've been to prison.
Someone aught to warn him, before I knock him off his chair.

Cause my long hair just can't cover up my redneck.
I've won every fight I've ever faught.
And I don't need some turkey telling me that I ain't country.
Say'en I aint worth a damn on, ticket that he bought.


Chorus:

Cause I can sing all those songs about Texas,

And I still do all the sad one's that I know.

They tell me, I look like Merle Haggard,

And sound alot like David Allen Coe.


Vs.4
And the barmaid in the last town that we played in.
Knew the words to every song I wrote.
She said Jimmy Rabbit turned her on to my last album.
Just about the time the jukebox broke.


Vs.5
Ya Jonny Cash helped me get out of prison.
Long before Rodriquez stole that goat.
I've been a Rhinestone Cowboy for so long I can't remember.
And I can do you every song Hank Williams ever wrote.


Chorus:
And I can sing all those songs about Texas,
And I still do all the sad one's that I know.
I can't help it, I like Merle Haggard,
And sound alot like David Allen Coe.


Vs.1

Vs.2 and fade




Real0ne -> RE: Al Gore's House Of Cards (8/17/2007 8:04:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

http://krla870.townhall.com/columnists/AmandaCarpenter/2007/08/17/nasa_blocked_climate_change_blogger_from_data

Another example of flawed data being used to promote the hysteria of global warming.
I wonder which will happen first; People will admit they were wrong, or even that the debate is not over in regards to global warming, or that the world will actually end because of global warming? Hmm, tough one.



shit man you want flawed data read the NIST report or the ASCE, or FEMA, or 911 OMission commission reports about 911!  Now there is some seriously fucked up shit





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