Ugly Americans (Full Version)

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fieryangel21 -> Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 10:28:14 AM)

I used to work for the Intensive English Program at my University. The program is a special school designed for teaching foreigners English language and culture to prepare them for higher education and careers in the United States. Today is the first day of classes here, and I smiled to see a group of new IEP students, mostly Japanese and Saudi women, being given a tour of the campus by the director of the program. A few of the Japanese women at the very back were having a friendly discussion amongst themselves in their own language.

My memories of that enjoyable job, however, were interrupted by a blonde freshman bimbo behind me loudly declaring, "If you're going to come to our country, you need to speak our language." If I wasn't such a generally polite person, I might've turned right around and socked her.

The poor young women she was insulting weren't speaking to her. Does she believe that a group of foreigners no longer has the right to converse with one other in their native tongue once they set foot on our soil?

People come to American universities from other countries for multiple reasons. They may intend to further their education or get a job here. They may have a spouse that is doing so and wish to learn English to better adapt to our society while they are here. Or they may simply be here for a semester studying abroad in order to expand their cultural horizons and add an impressive little blurb on their resumes. But they are certainly not here to conform with snotty little rich girls. Uncomfortable to hear people speaking a language you don't understand? Deal with it. If you want facism, you're probably the one that should leave.

Now, I understand that to function in our society you need to speak English. You shouldn't walk into an American grocery store and expect a German translator to appear and cater to your every need. But people who say things like "speak English or get out" don't really mean that. They just want all the people with funny accents and different colored skin to leave so they don't have to feel the discomfort of sharing a town with people who are different. She may have been too dense to realize that these students are here to learn English, but I think it's more likely that she would just as soon begrudge them the right to do so.

Also, the same people who expect foriegn visitors to speak English perfectly, expect to be able to go to France or Mexico to party and have everyone speak to them in English. The native speakers are only there to entertain them. And many tourist attractions and universities in other countries have bilingual employees, who are able to help native English-speakers who don't speak the language. Yet we don't believe in offering our own foreign guests similar patience and courtesy.

I can't abide Americans who believe that we own the world and are superior to everyone else. They are just the same as us. The only difference is that more of them are willing to accept that.

It's a pity that someone so physically attractive can be so ugly inside.

End rant. Constructive thoughts?



Satyr6406 -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 10:44:53 AM)

I have a (hopefully) constructive thought ...
 
Firstly, I speak a few foreign languages and I live in a largely South American/Central American community.
 
The reason I speak numerous languages is because I have always believed that good communication is key to just about everything. Having said that, I have found that speaking even just a little bit of a "foreigner's" language it will make them feel welcome and, perhaps encourage them to learn some of ours.
 
Okay, now to the meat of the issue. We live in a time and a culture that ALLOWS people to invade our borders, illegally take up residence and then DEMAND that we conduct business in their language because they "can't be bothered" to make a little bit of effort re: assimilation. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the show of anger but, I understand and support from whence it comes.
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael



feastie -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 10:47:20 AM)

My grandparents were Polish-American.  They were born here to immigrant parents.  They spoke Polish in the home, only.  Everywhere else, they used English. 



MizzElle -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 10:58:14 AM)

Whatever language you choose to speak in private conversations is your business, I often prefer to converse in French with my husband in English areas if speaking about something private, and we speak English in the French ones. It's about privacy, not refusing to assimilate. Maybe our attitude in Canada is different, but I have never encountered a problem, even when speaking languages other than French/English.



fieryangel21 -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 11:04:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

We live in a time and a culture that ALLOWS people to invade our borders, illegally take up residence and then DEMAND that we conduct business in their language because they "can't be bothered" to make a little bit of effort re: assimilation. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the show of anger but, I understand and support from whence it comes.



Oh, of course. People who enter our country illegally shouldn't be treated special for breaking the law. But people who are here legally for the express purpose of learning should not be deprived of their freedom of speech, and that includes the right to speak any language at any time and place they please (I'm sure that's not in the first amendment, but there's definitely no law stating they can't)... as long as they aren't expecting anyone who doesn't speak it to understand, ie speak English with English-speakers and Japanese with Japanese-speakers.



fieryangel21 -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 11:06:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MizzElle

It's about privacy, not refusing to assimilate.


Privacy, yes, and comfort, too, I imagine. Especially concerning folks who in all likelihood just got here two days ago.



philosophy -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 11:07:48 AM)

FR

..it always seems a shame to me that so many can't see the difference between illegal and legal visitors. Just because the former exist does not give people the right to be rude to the latter. That's just back-handed bigotry.



LaTigresse -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 11:13:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

..it always seems a shame to me that so many can't see the difference between illegal and legal visitors. Just because the former exist does not give people the right to be rude to the latter. That's just back-handed bigotry.


Hense the ugly, in ugly americans eh?



violetaelf -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 12:04:21 PM)

I'm bi-lingual. I've come from formal USSR and speak Russian very well... but I also speak English well. I agree.. people should have the freedom of speaking their language anytime/anywhere they wish (and able to). I exercise that right with my family and friends. Even my Sir is learning a few Russian words *giggles*.

I've had my share of people telling me that I better speak English because I'm in America. And I would reply to them in a clear English that I will when I choose to.

The only thing that I don't agree with, is people who come to the country... settle in a neighborhood that is predominantly of their culture. (example. Brighton Beach in New York for Russians) and refuse to learn English. I understand that for some older people it's harder to learn a new language... but both of my grandma's studied and learned, may be not great ,but they can communicate. There are those who say "There is no point.. " and don't bother. Sad.

It might be a step off the OP's topic... so sorry for that. But just felt the need to bring it up.

'violet'



popeye1250 -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 12:51:23 PM)

My grandparents (on both sides) were Irish speakers but also spoke English (Barlam).
They'd speak Irish in the house, English outside the house.



philosophy -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 1:38:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

..it always seems a shame to me that so many can't see the difference between illegal and legal visitors. Just because the former exist does not give people the right to be rude to the latter. That's just back-handed bigotry.


Hense the ugly, in ugly americans eh?



......and there was me, thinking the ugly came from all those puritans...........



Alumbrado -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 3:11:42 PM)

Why is a freshman standing there yelling anything at a group of visitors? Doesn't your school have a tolerance policy in the code of conduct?



JackM1 -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 3:31:31 PM)

for the past two summers, i traveled abroad(on one trip visiting 8 different countries in europe with 8 different languages) and made an attempt to learn enough of every language to at least be polite( ie; please, thank you, excuse me, yes, no, im sorry) even if i couldnt hold a conversation to save my life, or even ask where the restroom was.

while i do believe that it is just rude to not learn the language of a country you will be living in(and quite annoying for all those involved with dealting with said careless people) i am perfectly happy to allow at least a year for those people to learn the basics of the language, supposing that they are actively attempting to learn said language, and tourists in america are no different than american tourists in say..france...not everyone is going to know your language, so its best to know the very simple basics, but you can be an ignorant mouse if you arent staying. (because admit it...most americans who travel abroad may know less than 5 words in the language of the country they are visiting, so i dont see why it should be any different for someone comming from abroad to visit america)

as an afterthought, my parents came from the USSR and now both speak wonderful english, though they enjoy the privacy of speaking in their own language whether out or in the house.

@fieryangel21- since the US technically doesnt have a national language(though the majority speak english) it technically legal to speak any language at any time and anywhere, but since the majority know and prefer to speak english, and all legal documents and such are in english, it would just make the entire process easier if those who lived here also knew english. if you notice, the language isnt called "american", despite what some misinformed people think, but rather "english" as in...england, which does have english as their national language. i believe we are the only country without our own national language, but i could be wrong.



MissyRane -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 4:39:16 PM)

I speak a couple of languages and then there're some that I understand but can't speak, I think it's a common courtesy to at least show a little bit of effort to get to know the culture/language of the country you're going to..even though you don't know more than one-three words if you try to make yourself understandable it does make you think like...they can't speak it but they try and here you do get TONS of credits for trying it and many people get a real hang of the language.


Most that come here try to learn the language if they're going to live here and they get credits for it, the ones that refuse to learn the language are not getting a lot of credit from the natives. It's just the way it works, if you move somewhere you try to adapt and become one of the natives, that can mean you need to change your habits or language.We consider it to be extremely rude if a person moves here and refuses to learn the language, its offensive to the culture and the nation and I believe most people find it to be that way, wherever you are in the world.

When travellers come here and start speaking their own mothertongue be it chinese or whatever expecting us to understand they can guarantee that we'll respond with the latest weather forecast or whatever bullshit we can think of in our native language, some people don't even ask if you speak their language or what is used to communicate with foreigners..eventually after a little while they swallow their pride and try to communicate in a language both parties understand when they see it's no point in speaking their native tongue. I think it's stupid when people refuse to understand that we don't speak every language in the world and you have to force them to communicate in a language so that both parties can understand..especially when they're travelling.
We don't expect them to know our native tongue but we do expect them to at least figure out a way to communicate.

In Spain ....even though you don't speak the language but know a few words but you try to babble those few words you know or try to make people understand you in spanish instead of choosing english right away...then they know you're trying to make an effort and for that you get much better service (or thats been my experience)



SusanofO -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 5:45:13 PM)

Next time you hear this, turn around and say:

"But - no matter what country you're in, or what langauage you are speaking - you still need to be polite, don't you?"

- Susan



TheHeretic -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 5:46:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Why is a freshman standing there yelling anything at a group of visitors? Doesn't your school have a tolerance policy in the code of conduct?



     Perhaps she was standing in one of those little, roped off, free speech zones?


     Gee.  Ignorant behavior from a freshman...  Who'd have thunk it?  So this "bimbo" expressed a narrow-minded opinion that might be the only point of view she's ever been exposed to.  Sounds like she needs the college experience too.



merrysbrat -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/20/2007 6:09:07 PM)

LOTS of places in america have at least spanish translators.... so we are offering our foreign guests similar patience and courtesy.



fieryangel21 -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/22/2007 8:13:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JackM1

i believe we are the only country without our own national language, but i could be wrong.


Well, we don't have our own language, but English is our official language... I think they were considering adding Spanish as an official language, too. Dunno if that ever happened. English here is definitely different than English anywhere else, so it's sort of our own. We have our own idioms and slang. But that's the case between any two countries that speak the same language.



sophia37 -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/22/2007 11:41:41 AM)

I think truly what annoys people is not that people dont speak english. I think the frustration is aimed at those who dont speak it well and are in a postion to assist us, but who instead just slow us down. Or who keep us in line at the store longer due to not understanding the cahsier or being in the wrong line.

I myself get really annoyed by tech support with a heavy accent. I feel like Im accomidating that person, while the reason I called was for someone to accomidate me. That does get under my skin.



samboct -> RE: Ugly Americans (8/22/2007 11:50:46 AM)

umm, Fiery?  While I agree with your sentiment about the "bimbo", you may want to use the reference you chose a bit more carefully.  It's not surprising though- most people never read the book- The Ugly American.  It's not a great read- I don't think it was wonderfully written- it's rather preachy.  But to synopsize- there were two Americans living in a foreign land receiving US aid.  The ugly one was the one without the Alec Baldwin looks and without the snazzy threads- who got out amongst the people wearing jeans and made an effort to learn the language.  The attractive american was the guy who stayed in the embassy, never learned the language, treated everyone condescendingly, but looked very good in a suit.

I agree with the previous posters- I just came back from a visit to Berlin and Vienna, and my Deutsch was limited to movie German at best.  But I tried- I got around, and only when things got complicated did I resort to English.  In France or Canada- the attempt to speak the language seems to differentiate whether or not people enjoyed their visit- my French is of the schoolboy variety- but it works well enough.

One observation- in the US, we're making a big effort to increase the amount of material written in Spanish.  Germany has a very large Turkish population, but there's no emphasis on putting signs into two languages.  Didn't seen any evidence of that in Vienna either.  What was kind of surprising that museums which can expect lots of foreign visitors, only made limited accomodation to other languages, generally only English.

Sam



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