RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (Full Version)

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Bobkgin -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 8:20:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

It wasn't an assumption but a discussion regarding a specific comment that was made by a specific person.



The point I made is valid, and I've long since moved on.




CuriousLord -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 8:27:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

I can assure you, it's quite realistic in that I've had such relationships and currently maintain one.


I'm sure you have.  But, the ad hoc provision that allows you to step out of the dynamic every time your slave says 'no' or something similar, then back in may well be the reason they're realisitic.  Basically, what you are saying is that you can suspend the dynamic as necessary to accomodate the slaves 'no.'


Not really.  In my take, the slave saying "No" is basically an end.  Acknowledging that it can be reconciled and she can be recollared is for accuracy's sake.  There was no intent to imply that breaking the dynamic was any small matter- at least, as far as the larger dynamic (the interpersonal relationship between the two people) is concerned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
quote:

I am unsure, though.. what would a slave have to say "No" to, assuming a mature Master and a truly submissive slave?


I could probably think of a couple dozen situations in which a 'truly submissive slave' might have good reason to say 'no' to a 'mature' Master.  The first that come to mind are those where something really bad, something unforeseen by the Master, would happen if his wishes were acted upon.


Then the slave might ask permission to interject and inform the Master, as full disclosure is often necessity in such a relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
I'm assuming that in addition to being mature, the Master is also human and might make a mistake.  If a Master wanted the slave to do something that would jepordize the life not of his or her self, but of the Master, wouldn't it be her duty to disobey even at the risk of punishment or incurring the displeasure of the Master should he survive?


Rather, it would be her duty to inform the Master if his order is foreseeably against his interests (his interests would, presumably, include her health).  If she should later find out that there is a contradiction in his orders and his interests (such as a case in which he tells her to stay in a room, and a fire starts in the room), she should consider guidelines a mature Master would have layed out (such as a priority for her own safety trumping casual orders).  If the Master has failed to lay out guidelines that relate to the subject at hand, or the slave earnestly believes that his guidelines are contrary to what he'd want, she should act as she believes he would have her (such as evading the fire, even if he's failed to make such a provision in his guidelines).

However, even should the slave act contrary to his orders, my point stands that, at no point, has she said "No".

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
Would it really be any service to the Master to say 'yes, sir, right away sir!  And would you like me to kiss your dead ass when I'm done, sir?'?


Which is why she would interject with her concerns.  This is not her acting contrary to her Master- in the case of a mature Master, he has already established a rule in which she must make such interjections; she would be disobeying if she didn't.

I'm not responding to a fairly significant part of your post, starting and ending here.  It would simply be beating a dead horse, as your main point in the remainder to be justifications for saying "No" in the kind that have already been addressed.  (However, if any points have been neglected in this abridging, I would invite you to point them out.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
quote:

I'm afraid that the subject tends to drift to more specific aspects by page five of a thread.


True enough.  But you responded in a sarcastic manner to a poster who was, in fact, explicitly addressing the thread topic.  And, as I indicated in my original comment to you, you might have misunderstood the comment you were treating sarcastically.  So, I think it reasonable to expect that your defense of your comment would have something to do with the original topic of discussion which was the sub slave distinction.


This argument strikes me as broken; how is my sarcastic treatment of something I perceive as silly to necessitate such a treatment being referential to the orginial post of the parent thread?  I'm afraid I must disagree with your conclusion, unless you can provide justifcation?




Bobkgin -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 8:28:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

She should certainly mean "no" if she says it.

However, by saying "no", she is saying she doesn't trust her master's judgment.


I think my reply to this would be roughly the same as my reply to CuriousLord.  There are a variety of scenarios that one can come up with where saying 'no' wouldn't necessarily involve a questioning of the Master's judgement on the part of the slave.  Additionally, perhaps the Master doesn't wish the slave to have that kind of absolute trust on the grounds that it would require him to be a god and he doesn't want to be a god.  



I don't see any reason to believe a responsible master would put a slave at such risk that he'd need to be a god to keep her safe.

She can have 100% trust in him to keep her safe by him limiting the risks that would endanger her.

Thus, there is never a legitimate reason to say no wthin the context of the M/s relationship.

This is assuming the master's ethics and limits were known to the slave before she became a slave. If she has this information, and offers to become a slave, she is choosing to accept his ethics and limits as her own, to support him in his decisions.

Thus again there is no legitimate reason for saying no unless he breaks his stated ethics or exceeds his stated limits.

In those case, he loses her trust and she is well within her rights to end her slavery.




Mercnbeth -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 8:38:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Beside the 3rd person speech restriction beth isn't even allowed to use words where the letters 'n' and 'o' appear together. The downside, of course, is that she can't refer to me as being "all kNOwing  - kNOw it all!". Not only appropriate, but in addition the way I want it and like it.


Curious question...  If a repairman was supposed to come to the house and you call beth to ask if they have shown up yet and they have not, how does she answer that question without having "no" appear together?

Knight's Kyra


The repairman has failed to appear. [8D]

Celeste


LOL

Yeah, I thought of that as I was changing my sheets.  I was just curious how much verbal maneuvering has to be done to avoid those two letters appearing together.  I am sure like most things, it would become second nature to a person who practices it all the time.

In our relationship, the word no is not off limits.  What is not allowed is refusing to do his will, no matter what letters are used to exhibit that refusal. 

Then another thought comes to mind... the word no is off limits, so master says "slave do X" and slave says, "fat chance of that happening" and then doesn't do it.  They didn't use the letters n and o, but an order was refused.... 

Just Sunday afternoon musings  *eg*

Knight's Kyra


Knight's Kyra,
Well another word it prevents beth from using is igNOrant. she can't say to me; "You are an igNorant bastard!"

In fact it takes so much pre-thinking that by the time the sentence is formed we've moved on to aNOther subject. But then she can't suggest any using aNOther.

I apologize if you took the reponse seriously. We were heading out for the day, and it was my knee jerk reaction to the thread and the last post I read. I think I tried to give serious answers to this pondering too much and I'm 'slave v. sub' thread drained. I forgot that CM should only contain serious musing of real people who live with the need to be sure they have labeled themselves correctly - NOt (aNOther prohibited word)  us. Sorry we just aren't that real. It's just beth and Merc. No Master, and with all due respect, no Lord and no slave either - except as it relates to our relationship.

Regarding the 'n' 'o' letters - Really, even I am not that AR. Although I now find the concept amusing to consider for a day or so, perhaps for actually saying 'no' at the iNOpportune moment. The thought of it made me sadistically chuckle, but keeping track would be as tough as applying the rule for speaking. Who knows - maybe I inspired a whole new dynamic and we'll be seeing as many 'Should my Master allow me to use words with 'n' and 'o' together?"; as we do the 'slave v. sub'.




Bobkgin -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 8:41:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Not really. ...



I'll spare us the rest of the quote for brevity only.

Well said. I've done this with every slave relationship.

I also include general instructions such as "When in doubt, ask" and "If you cannot ask, use your best judgment".

Amazing how much territory that can cover.




CuriousLord -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 8:43:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

The "bartering" or, rather, the discussion of wants/needs/requirements of my Master and i came before i made my decision to become His slave.  The rules, that i would be required to live by, were set by my Master and understood and agreed to by me, before i accepted my His collar and became His slave.  If He had required that i give up all connections to family and friends, negotiations would have ceased between Uus.  The mere suggestion of that would have been a red flag to me, that this is not someone i would respect or trust and, without those two qualities being present, i would not be interested in serving.
 
As far as i'm concerned, turning your back on the people who are a close and integral part of your life, prior to becoming a slave, is contradictory to some of the most basic character traits that i consider essential to, not only being a long-term slave but, to having any long-term, committed, intimate relationship.  Those qualities are Loyalty, Honesty, Fidelity, Responsibility, Reliability, and Dependability.  The willingness to turn your back on your children, your parents, your siblings, your close friends, for no other reason than to become a slave, indicates, to me, that those character traits are either not present or not very strong. 
 
Those are the character traits i look for in deciding to become involved in an intimate relationship, with the hope of it being long term.  Those qualities are also essential to my Master, in His choice of slaves.  i understand that different Masters have different qualities they look for in a slave and, perhaps these qualities are irrelevant to some.  But, i still don't see how having the willingness to turn your back on the people who you are close to, in order to become the property of another, would be a desirable trait in a slave, much less a requirement to being a slave.
 
Not only that but, if the slave cuts all her ties to the people she is closely connected to, in order to become a slave and, then something happens down the road, that ends her service to her Master, such as in His death or His decision to release her, she has no family or friends to turn to for comfort, help, or simply to not be all alone.  This would be a very insecure way to live, i believe, and would make it very difficult to feel comfortable serving a man who would require or even desire this from a slave.
 
It sounds to me as though you became collared with conditions as to your "Master"'s ability to order you.  I will not contest you calling yourself a "slave", nor your "Master" just that.  However, as the relationship you have chosen does fall outside the definition of M/s I use (I would qualify you as a sub, in my own speak), the statements I have made about slaves do not necessarily apply to you nor your relationship.
 
I would like to empathize that I mean no insult to you nor your relationship nor do I mean to say that it is anything less.  All I mean to say is that my statements about M/s are about M/s as I define it and cannot be assumed to necessarily apply to something outside of my definition of such.  I have referred to the positions in your dynamic as "slave" and "Master"- in quotes- to maintain that this is what you call these positions, but that I would not call them the same in my own terminology.




kyraofMists -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 8:45:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I apologize if you took the reponse seriously. We were heading out for the day, and it was my knee jerk reaction to the thread and the last post I read. I think I tried to give serious answers to this pondering too much and I'm 'slave v. sub' thread drained. I forgot that CM should only contain serious musing of real people who live with the need to be sure they have labeled themselves correctly - NOt (aNOther prohibited word)  us. Sorry we just aren't that real. It's just beth and Merc. No Master, and with all due respect, no Lord and no slave either - except as it relates to our relationship.

Regarding the 'n' 'o' letters - Really, even I am not that AR. Although I now find the concept amusing to consider for a day or so, perhaps for actually saying 'no' at the iNOpportune moment. The thought of it made me sadistically chuckle, but keeping track would be as tough as applying the rule for speaking. Who knows - maybe I inspired a whole new dynamic and we'll be seeing as many 'Should my Master allow me to use words with 'n' and 'o' together?"; as we do the 'slave v. sub'.


LOL

And it inspired a whole new thread too  *eg*

I thought about it and tried to figure out how that would actually work in day to day life...  I agree that it would take so long to figure out what to say that the topic would be long over and it would require quite a bit of diligence on the part of the master to continually reinforce the protocol.

I am pretty sure that I avoided those two letters together in this post tough  [;)]

Thanks for the clarification!

Knight's Kyra




Mercnbeth -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 8:56:45 PM)

quote:

And it inspired a whole new thread too  *eg*


Knight's Kyra,
Didn't see the new thread yet. I'm still deriving sadistic pleasure out or reading the replies concerning it in this thread, especially from my good friend Bob. We'll have to check out the other thread.

I bet someone there will claim its was somehow part of the "Old Guards" rules. In reality its derived from the Royal Order of Old Swiss Chard and each novitiate had to maintain that speech rule for 30 days before becoming a 'Collard' slave. Simply Michael - a Captain of the Chard (trust me - we were there when he bought the uniform) will confirm this is the Old Chard's 'one twue way'.

Thanks!




slavegirljoy -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 9:10:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
I can't speak to how your master sees this, but I know how I'd view it:

I would be viewing this as essential ingredients for your mental health. Just as air is an essential ingredient for your physical health.

Were this a situation involving me, I would make clear I expected you to be willing to delay a visit if I felt I had a greater need for you than they do. But I would also make it clear that I expected you to be a good friend to your friends, and a good member of the family with your family, and that I would cooperate as far as scheduling to give you the opportunities to develop those relationships and enrich them.

In this sense, they are not "rights", but "necessities of life", which I happen to believe to be far more essential to a slave than "rights".

Bear in mind I am not saying I personally would accept those requirements at this point in my life.

But I did, in fact, accept them with my wife some nine years ago when we moved in together.

She accepted those conditions and would make tentative arrangements to meet others and would then ask me if these dates were acceptable.

Almost all of them were. If not it was due to illness or really bad weather.

I don't see any of that being any less a slave.


Thank you for the clarification.  This is reasonable and makes sense.  The earlier post, that i referenced, sounded as though the unwillingness to leave all family (children and parents, included) and friends behind and have nothing more to do with them, automatically made the person ineligible to be considered a slave.  That seemed to me to be counter to my idea of a loyal and trusting slave.   Naturally, my Master is the most important person in my life but, He isn't the only person, just as i'm not the only person in His life.  As i said in one of my first posts on this thread, i don't have much close family or many friends but, the ones i have are important to me and i couldn't see just turning my back on them in order to become a slave.  i don't see the relevance in needing to do that, since i have no conflicts in being able to serve my Master completely and to His satisfaction, while i maintain a connection to others in my life.   His family is also a factor in Oour relationship and i have had to deal with them much more than with my own family, especially since His fsmily is close by and mine are mostly on the other coast.   To me, it's really just a matter of being honest and open, right from the start, about what each is bringing into the relationship and about what is and isn't acceptable, allowed, and required, in order to make for a successful M/s relationship.  Making that understood in the earliest discussions, i believe, helps to eliminate a lot of potential problems down the road. slave joyOwned property of Master David "Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."




Bobkgin -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 10:15:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
I can't speak to how your master sees this, but I know how I'd view it:

I would be viewing this as essential ingredients for your mental health. Just as air is an essential ingredient for your physical health.

Were this a situation involving me, I would make clear I expected you to be willing to delay a visit if I felt I had a greater need for you than they do. But I would also make it clear that I expected you to be a good friend to your friends, and a good member of the family with your family, and that I would cooperate as far as scheduling to give you the opportunities to develop those relationships and enrich them.

In this sense, they are not "rights", but "necessities of life", which I happen to believe to be far more essential to a slave than "rights".

Bear in mind I am not saying I personally would accept those requirements at this point in my life.

But I did, in fact, accept them with my wife some nine years ago when we moved in together.

She accepted those conditions and would make tentative arrangements to meet others and would then ask me if these dates were acceptable.

Almost all of them were. If not it was due to illness or really bad weather.

I don't see any of that being any less a slave.


Thank you for the clarification.  This is reasonable and makes sense.  The earlier post, that i referenced, sounded as though the unwillingness to leave all family (children and parents, included) and friends behind and have nothing more to do with them, automatically made the person ineligible to be considered a slave.  That seemed to me to be counter to my idea of a loyal and trusting slave.   Naturally, my Master is the most important person in my life but, He isn't the only person, just as i'm not the only person in His life.  As i said in one of my first posts on this thread, i don't have much close family or many friends but, the ones i have are important to me and i couldn't see just turning my back on them in order to become a slave.  i don't see the relevance in needing to do that, since i have no conflicts in being able to serve my Master completely and to His satisfaction, while i maintain a connection to others in my life.   His family is also a factor in Oour relationship and i have had to deal with them much more than with my own family, especially since His fsmily is close by and mine are mostly on the other coast.   To me, it's really just a matter of being honest and open, right from the start, about what each is bringing into the relationship and about what is and isn't acceptable, allowed, and required, in order to make for a successful M/s relationship.  Making that understood in the earliest discussions, i believe, helps to eliminate a lot of potential problems down the road. slave joyOwned property of Master David "Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."


I should be clear that Kiki and CuriousLord are describing 'textbook' definitions for "slave", and I support those definitions fully. They (unknowingly) and I have been describing the nature of the relationships I seek for my future.

But along my path I've come to recognize that the mental health of some may require outside contacts, and as long as that is under the control of a master, I do not see it being any less an M/s relationship.

I know CuriousLord has already spoken to you on this by saying he does not consider that an M/s relationship. In a purist sense, he is correct.

In a purist sense, a slave has no other desire or need than to please her master.

Certainly any relationship I engage in in the future will be with someone who is ready for this.




GoodgirlFind -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 10:29:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

In a purist sense, a slave has no other desire or need than to please her master.

Certainly any relationship I engage in in the future will be with someone who is ready for this.



OMG these quotes are so true.


"And it does bother me that subs who negotiate everything claim to be "slaves",
thus comparing themselves (in my mind) to those with no limits.

I'd be curious to hear what word subs would assign to a 'sub' who has no limits, to distinguish him/her from those other subs who have all kinds of limits."


My bet is they don't have a word to cover that, which to me would simply confirm my belief as to why the word "slave" lost its original meaning.


"in short, there are no "No"s in the M/s relationship. The slave -can- say "No".. just, once she does, there's no more M/s relationship."

"It is nonsense to suggest a slave has "permission" to say "no", unless her master has actually granted her that privilege.

A slave can certainly quit, and this is one of the ways in which she can do it: through refusal to serve.

Just because a slave agrees to serve does not negate her natural born ability to exercise free will. A slave can do anything anyone else can do.

But as Bitatruble said earlier: there are consequences for her behaviour whereas the consequences for a sub doing exactly the same thing may be a good deal less drastic. "

She should certainly mean "no" if she says it.

However, by saying "no", she is saying she doesn't trust her master's judgment.

If that is the case, she shouldn't be serving him as a slave (probably not as a sub either). "

"t is true that no one can remove another's autonomy.

However, it is also true that a slave can choose to behave as if she has no autonomy.

It is by consistently and willingly making that choice, and that choice alone, that a slave demonstrates her devotion to serving her master.

That does -not- make her an object.

It makes her a slave willfully choosing to serve her master in whatever capacity he might wish.

If she cannot make that choice, then she is deciding to stop being his slave, and there are consequences for that.

This is why slavery (and the accepting of a slave's devotion) should never be taken lightly. "

Once a "slave" is defined as "one who has no limits" he/she becomes far more desirable to many of us than any sub could hope to be.

This appears to be the reason why the word "slave" has now come to mean anything subby.

It's sort of like those generic brands trying to look like a popular brand so as to fool people into buying the knock-off rather than the geuine article.

"Some of us still read the labels, however, and will not be fooled by imitations"

"The basic idea here is that a slave follows her Master's orders, that her Master doesn't have to barter with her or try to convince her to do something like a Dom may have to with a sub."




slavegirljoy -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/26/2007 10:43:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
In a purist sense, a slave has no other desire or need than to please her master.

Certainly any relationship I engage in in the future will be with someone who is ready for this.


Sorry but, that sounds to me like the description of a robot, that you can program to meet your needs, without having any feelings and desires and needs of its own.  But, then again, i believe even a robot has some needs of its own that must be met to keep functioning correctly. While i put my Masters needs and desires in front of mine and all others and my greatest pleasure is in giving my Master everything that He desires from me, i do have other needs and desires.  i am more than a robot.  He recognizes and enjoys the fact that i have needs and desires, both physical and emotional.  In fact, He enjoys toying with those needs and desires of mine and often dangles them in front of me, just to see me squirm and beg.  He enjoys the fact that i am not a 1-dimensional creature and He is constantly probing me to find out what's going on in there and learning more about how i tick and what gets me wet.  He loves to make me wet and then makes me have to wait and beg for His permission to orgasm.  That is one of His favorite past times. Believe me, it wasn't something that i had expected from Him or that i had even considered when i accepted His collar but, because of His interest in opening me up and having me reveal my inner being to Him, the bond between Uus is much stronger than i have ever had with any other Dom before and i am much more secure in my place as His slave, because i know that He really cares about who i am, not just what i can do for Him. 

slave joy
Owned property of Master David
 
"Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."




AquaticSub -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/27/2007 4:27:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

And it inspired a whole new thread too  *eg*


Knight's Kyra,
Didn't see the new thread yet. I'm still deriving sadistic pleasure out or reading the replies concerning it in this thread, especially from my good friend Bob. We'll have to check out the other thread.

I bet someone there will claim its was somehow part of the "Old Guards" rules. In reality its derived from the Royal Order of Old Swiss Chard and each novitiate had to maintain that speech rule for 30 days before becoming a 'Collard' slave. Simply Michael - a Captain of the Chard (trust me - we were there when he bought the uniform) will confirm this is the Old Chard's 'one twue way'.

Thanks!


*giggles* Valyraen and I would like to thank you for making this post and allowing us to start our day with a good laugh.




gypsygrl -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/27/2007 4:33:24 AM)

quote:

This argument strikes me as broken;


Its not an argument.  It's an explaining of my perspective.  That you assume I'm arguing (I mean this in the philosophical sense, not in the fighting back and forth sense) only reinforces my sense that you're taking a formalistic approach to this whole thing.  :)




Bobkgin -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/27/2007 5:23:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodgirlFind

OMG these quotes are so true.



skipping an extensive list of my quotes on the subject for brevity ...

Thank you, G.

That's quite a list you've compiled there.

Starting to look like a thesis [:)]

on edit: I suppose if I say I'm going to skip the quotes, I ought to remove them.

8:30 AM, I'm yet to have my first cuppa tea.

(-.-)




CuriousLord -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/27/2007 5:40:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

This argument strikes me as broken;


Its not an argument.  It's an explaining of my perspective.  That you assume I'm arguing (I mean this in the philosophical sense, not in the fighting back and forth sense) only reinforces my sense that you're taking a formalistic approach to this whole thing.  :)


This is hardly formal, though, yes, I've been taking a logical approach here as I would to most any discussion that isn't soley humor.  Why are you even typing if nothing you've said has had any substance?




Bobkgin -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/27/2007 5:53:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
In a purist sense, a slave has no other desire or need than to please her master.

Certainly any relationship I engage in in the future will be with someone who is ready for this.


Sorry but, that sounds to me like the description of a robot, that you can program to meet your needs, without having any feelings and desires and needs of its own. 


 
I'll preface this by saying usage of "slave" and "sub" in the following is according to the original definitions I learned long ago when I was starting out in my craft.


 
SlaveJoy, the statement I've extracted from your response is a common misconception (and one the subs used to use against the slaves back in the day when those words still had their original meaning).

First, this isn't something a responsible master does -to- a slave.

It is what the slave does -for- her master.

It is not that she has no other interests, it is that she sacrifices the pursuit of those interests and anything else that bars her from serving her master in a 24/7/365 capacity.

She may well be permitted to pursue those interests anyway (I'm a fairly relaxed master about such things, I like my slaves to be happy and granting time to pursue an interest is certainly one way to bring a smile to their faces).

But she has given up any claim to a right to pursue them independant of my permission.

A sub does not ever give up that right. In D/s (as opposed to M/s) the dom and sub enjoy equal rights. They are two people who have agreed to the terms of a scene where they proceed to enact it, like a play. When the curtain falls, they return to their vanilla personae. But anywhere in the middle a sub can call out a safe word, or simply say "enough, I want to stop", and that's it. It's done.

A slave does not have that freedom, or those rights. She's chosen to dispense with all of that out of a profound need to serve her master.

quote:


While i put my Masters needs and desires in front of mine and all others and my greatest pleasure is in giving my Master everything that He desires from me, i do have other needs and desires.

 
And who wins when they conflict?
 
A slave (in the purist sense) never has any conflict between her priorities, as her only priority is her master's will for her.
 
quote:


i am more than a robot.  He recognizes and enjoys the fact that i have needs and desires, both physical and emotional.  In fact, He enjoys toying with those needs and desires of mine and often dangles them in front of me, just to see me squirm and beg.  He enjoys the fact that i am not a 1-dimensional creature and He is constantly probing me to find out what's going on in there and learning more about how i tick and what gets me wet.  He loves to make me wet and then makes me have to wait and beg for His permission to orgasm.  That is one of His favorite past times. Believe me, it wasn't something that i had expected from Him or that i had even considered when i accepted His collar but, because of His interest in opening me up and having me reveal my inner being to Him, the bond between Uus is much stronger than i have ever had with any other Dom before and i am much more secure in my place as His slave, because i know that He really cares about who i am, not just what i can do for Him. 


But not so secure as to feel no need to cast aspersions on those who focus exclusively on their master's needs and dispenses with any/all aspects of her life that might conflict with that focus.

I can see why CL said you were a "sub" by his definition.

You are taking a variation I've accepted for the sake of the mental health of the slave and are turning it into "the one true way".

You are further from the purest sense of the word "slave" than those whom you malign with the word "robot". Of the three people who have spoken of the purest definition of slave, you've only one who is willing to include you in that definition providing those outside activities are necessary for mental health.

That should give you an idea of how far out on the fringe you are when compared to the original definition for "slave".

I could just as easily argue that a "slave" has no mental health issues that require outside activities.

In that case, I'd agree with CL: you are a "sub" by the original definition of the term.

It is my compassion that argues for leniency, not the definition for the word "slave".

Don't presume to believe that somehow makes you the penultimate model for a "slave".




gypsygrl -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/27/2007 5:59:52 AM)

quote:

Why are you even typing if nothing you've said has had any substance?


Erm...I think I said I was explaining my perspctive, not that what I was saying had no substance. 

In all honesty, I don't take a logical approach to this stuff because, having studied logic and related disciplines, I've come to decide that 'logic' is  inadequate to human relationships.  So, that's probably the source of our disaggrement: fundementally different approaches.  We can now comfortably talk past each other, knowing why we're doing so. :)




slavegirljoy -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/27/2007 8:41:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
While i put my Masters needs and desires in front of mine and all others and my greatest pleasure is in giving my Master everything that He desires from me, i do have other needs and desires.

quote:

And who wins when they conflict?

There are no conflicts in my service to my Master, even with other people in my life and with personal needs and desires.  As i stated, i put my Masters needs and desires in front of mine and all others
 
Master trumps all, including me.  But, my Master understands my needs and desires and He makes sure that His slave is meeting those needs and desires, as well as His own.  He's concerned about His property staying healthy, physically and emotionally.  He wants a slave who is able to meet His needs and for that to happen, He makes sure that His slave is getting enough sleep, enough nutrition, proper medical care, proper hygiene, and enough intellectual and emotional care to keep a sharp and functional mind.

 
quote:

A slave (in the purist sense) never has any conflict between her priorities, as her only priority is her master's will for her.

Just as i said.

quote:

But not so secure as to feel no need to cast aspersions on those who focus exclusively on their master's needs and dispenses with any/all aspects of her life that might conflict with that focus.

i don't think i casted any aspersions on anyone.  i simply disagree that a slave must be willing to turn her back on all others, family and friends, in order to be a slave.  i said that i think being willing to turn your back on the people who are close to you and have been for years, such as parents and children, to me, shows a lack of integrity and loyalty, that i and my Master consider to be essential qualities in a committed relationship.

quote:

I can see why CL said you were a "sub" by his definition.

You are taking a variation I've accepted for the sake of the mental health of the slave and are turning it into "the one true way".

Just the opposite.  i have said that i have another view of being a slave than he has.  i never said that everyone must agree with me.  i simply stated that my view is different from his, on this issue.

quote:

You are further from the purest sense of the word "slave" than those whom you malign with the word "robot".

i don't think i maligned anyone simply by saying that i think to deny a person (slaves are people) has needs and desires, other than to please her Master "sounds to me like the description of a robot."  That's what it sounds like to me.  All people have needs and desires and if they aren't met, at least at a basic minimum level, the person will not likely thrive for long. 

quote:

Of the three people who have spoken of the purest definition of slave, you've only one who is willing to include you in that definition providing those outside activities are necessary for mental health.

That should give you an idea of how far out on the fringe you are when compared to the original definition for "slave".

Gee, three people!  You all have spoken!  i must truly be in the minority.  Someone should notify the High Council of Slave Authentication and notify them of my lack of qualification for being a slave and revoke my slave card and inform my Master that He has been duped by a sub posing as a slave.  (hopefully, the sarcasm will be evident here)

quote:

I could just as easily argue that a "slave" has no mental health issues that require outside activities.

Yes, you could.  And, certainly others would disagree.

quote:

In that case, I'd agree with CL: you are a "sub" by the original definition of the term.

Personally, it doesn't matter what you call me.  The only One who matters to me is my Master.  When He was searching for a slave, He found me and decided that i was qualified to serve Him as His slave and i have done so, dutifully, loyally, and obediently.  i serve Him 24/7 and do everything He tells me to do, no matter what it is, when He tells me to do it, how He tells me to do it, without hesitation or disagreement, and i continue to do it until He tells me to stop.  As long as He is happy with my service to Him, He can call me anything He wants.  And, He does.
 
slave joy (to my Master, at least)
Owned property of Master David
 
"Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."
 




LATEXBABY64 -> RE: SLAVES VS SUBS (8/27/2007 8:54:58 PM)

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