Throw It Away or Work Past It

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MadRabbit -> Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 6:47:16 PM)
The recent thread regarding "SLAVE VS SUB" got me to thinking so I have a hypothetical situation to present to the group regarding an M/S relationship. For the purposes of this hypothetical situation, I'll need to establish a definition for the dynamic of the M/S relationship. I realize we have a multitude of different styles and dynamics on this forum, but for the parameters of this discussion I am using the most common definition I see which is also my own. I work off the axion of "Obey or Leave". The contigency that makes my M/S relationship an M/S relationship is that the slave cannot willfully defy me. By willfully defying me, she is saying that she is no longer my slave. Without this contigency, we're simply another vanilla couple. The hypothetical situation is that you are a Master in such a relationship and the relationship has lasted for several years (This situation wont be hypothetical for all people, of course). Then, one day a problem occurs and the slave willfully defys you. How would you handle it? Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority? Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact?

DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 6:58:01 PM)
That's a hard question to answer. Does she want to be in a vanilla relationship with you, and do you want to be in a vanilla relationship with her? I've recently went through something similar and based on her defiance, I had no choice but to end the relationship (because while not getting into particulars it was a crucial part of the core of our relationship). Since then, we are "negotiating" and we'll see where it leads.

rmanrr -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:00:35 PM)
Greetings Communication. Simple. Precise. Discussion. Willfully being disobedient in what sense? In most instances which I can imagine...no. I will not throw away something which is inately satisfying...there is most often a way to resolve the issue...if both parties want to work at doing just that.

MadRabbit -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:07:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rmanrr Greetings Communication. Simple. Precise. Discussion. Willfully being disobedient in what sense? In most instances which I can imagine...no. I will not throw away something which is inately satisfying...there is most often a way to resolve the issue...if both parties want to work at doing just that. It is a hard question to answer and there is endless situations we can present. I left it kind of open without going specifics so people could submit their own different ways of handling different problems. The point of my post, is while I follow this style, I am also somewhat opposed to this line of thinking. It can create the misconception of "Oh no! If I say "No" once, he will leave me" and this, in my opinion, can result in a lack of stability. We use these theortical and formal definitons a lot, but I was hoping in this discussion, we would get a bit more practical. How one keeps a long term relationship together with the issue of the dynamic being broken.

KnightofMists -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:11:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit How would you handle it? Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority? Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact? this is not hypothetical for me. Another girl that was we Alandra and I for just under three years came into my life with the intention and motivation to be my slave. Now.. It was very clearly communicated what my dynamic is .. no different than what was communicated with Kyra. In fact, I was talking to Kyra when this other girl was still in my life. Anyways... this girl did willfully disobey. It did end the M/s structure. We did try to maintain a Relationship. We went from an M/s dynamic to a D/s one that was Negotiatied. In the end... I should of just end the relationship! I learned alot about myself and my needs because of the experience. I learned that having an M/s structure for a primary partner is necessary for me. I can have a D/s dynamic if the person is not my primary... in fact.. I have an informal dynamic with my bottom. We are not life partners even on a secondary level... but we are good and dear friends. Becuase of our nature tendencies.. a D/s interaction is rather expected and even enjoyed. well back to the OP... my experience as taught me.. that willfuly disobedience will result in one thing.. End of the Relationship. For me willful disobedience is no different than someone cheating in a monogamist relationships. Yes some monogomist relationship are able to heal and move past it.... but my experience most do not. I learned.. that Willful Disobedience was not something I could move past. Even when we limited the relationship in what obedience I could expect.... the underlying impact of a lack of trust in her word continued to haunt me. I couldn't move past it... as much as I tried. of course, there was alot of other factors of why the relationship failed. However, if Alandra or Kyra willfully disobeyed... I know that I just couldn't work past it. I could not forget or forgive the broken commitment. editted to add: I would also say that I expect that Willful Disobedience will not just happen. Like the cheating person in a monogamist relationship the seeds of the cheat... or Willful Disobedience is sowed long before it actually occurs. In my situation... It wasn't actually a surprized.... regardless of how hard I tried to avoid the situation.

submittous -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I work off the axion of "Obey or Leave". The contigency that makes my M/S relationship an M/S relationship is that the slave cannot willfully defy me. By willfully defying me, she is saying that she is no longer my slave. Without this contigency, we're simply another vanilla couple. The hypothetical situation is that you are a Master in such a relationship and the relationship has lasted for several years (This situation wont be hypothetical for all people, of course). Then, one day a problem occurs and the slave willfully defys you. How would you handle it? Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority? Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact? So what you are saying is your slave lives for years under your rules but when the going gets tuff you want to wuss out? Another axiom that floats around the bdsm community is "you can't own a slave that you are not willing to release" just a thought Bill

DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:13:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit <snip>How one keeps a long term relationship together with the issue of the dynamic being broken. It's a great way to start a discussion clearly when my track record is mixed on it. Prior to the comments I posted above. I was in a M/s relationship for 3 years with a slave who I believed at the time would be my slave and partner for life. Around our third year into our relationship, while she wanted to serve publicly and bottom for play, she didn't want to live a M/s lifestyle anymore. A very strong dynamic was broken (at no fault of her) but ultimately it was the beginning of the end our relationship.

MadRabbit -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:16:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submittous quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I work off the axion of "Obey or Leave". The contigency that makes my M/S relationship an M/S relationship is that the slave cannot willfully defy me. By willfully defying me, she is saying that she is no longer my slave. Without this contigency, we're simply another vanilla couple. The hypothetical situation is that you are a Master in such a relationship and the relationship has lasted for several years (This situation wont be hypothetical for all people, of course). Then, one day a problem occurs and the slave willfully defys you. How would you handle it? Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority? Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact? So what you are saying is your slave lives for years under your rules but when the going gets tuff you want to wuss out? Another axiom that floats around the bdsm community is "you can't own a slave that you are not willing to release" just a thought Bill Nope, I am just aware of the very possible conflict of interest. The A) wanting a power dynamic vs B) wanting to continue to be with someone you cherish, enjoy, and are close to Edited to Add : I am aware of that line of thought, but dont personally like it. I prefer the one about "two consenting adults working together threw hardships and issues to make an authority/power work"

MadRabbit -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:22:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists I would also say that I expect that Willful Disobedience will not just happen. Like the cheating person in a monogamist relationship the seeds of the cheat... or Willful Disobedience is sowed long before it actually occurs. In my situation... It wasn't actually a surprized.... regardless of how hard I tried to avoid the situation. I will have to think on that one. What do you think in regards to my opinion that such a dynamic can lead to instability? For example, how can a slave expect to trully "give herself to a Master" if she is afraid that he will throw away the relationship over a simple "No"?

devotedsylph -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:32:22 PM)
I think it really depends on what the act of "Willful Disobedience" was. If you are in a 10-year relationship and she decides to buy Prego instead of Ragu, is that REALLY worth ending your relationship over? She might have a perfectly valid reason for willfully disobeying. For example, she might be in a situation that requires her to decide to override your command because of extenuating circumstances. If she's with her mother, and her mother has a heart attack, and she's in the hospital but she can't reach you decides to stay there instead of being home at curfew, that's willfully disobeying. Is that something you'd end your relationship over? The "Obey of Leave" axiom is a black/white axiom, and relationships - even M/s ones - are anything but.

mountainpet -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:33:09 PM)
It isn't always the master who "throws away the relationship over a simple 'no'". It is the sub or slave who uses the "no" word. Of course, the master might prompt it by ordering something he knows she won't do- but anyway, disobedience is a symptom, not a problem- the problem lies somewhere else.

kyraofMists -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:35:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit What do you think in regards to my opinion that such a dynamic can lead to instability? For example, how can a slave expect to trully "give herself to a Master" if she is afraid that he will throw away the relationship over a simple "No"? I can give you my perspective from the slave side of the relationship. In the beginning of our relationship, I struggled with feeling secure within it. I struggled with the "accept or leave" mindset and wondered if I was capable of being his slave. We spent a lot of time working through the fears that I have (and they still crop up from time to time) and it wasn't they dynamic that caused the fears, it was my own insecurities about being in a relationship. These days, I feel pretty damn secure in our relationship. We still have a lot of challenges because of the distance and immigration that we work through but not with my submission. It is actually pretty empowering and provides a lot of security to know that as long as I honor my commitment to him as his slave, then the relationship will last. I do not think there is anything simple about a slave refusing a direct order. For me to do that would be to act in a manner that goes against my own core values. I do not think that this mindset leads to instability within a relationship. If it does, then I would question if they are cut out to be in that type of a relationship in the first place. Knight's Kyra

NControlofU -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:35:31 PM)
My slave has defied me once before and I didn't choose to throw her out. It took me too much time and effort to find one that satisfied all of my needs. When she defied me, it was over a simple order for her to remove the butt plug I had stuck in her ass hours earlier. I told her take it out right there in the living room and she apologized and said she just couldn't do it there. She wasnt beligerent about it. She was apologetic and embarased that she couldn't do it. I asked her to explain why and she told me that it was her concern about possible being seen by another member of the family who was in the back part of the house at the time and she wanted to go to the bathroom to take it out in private. I understood her concern and told her that she could go to the bathroom to take it out but she was going to be punished for refusing to do what I had told her to do. I punished her the next day and she has never refused me anything since then. It would take something much more serious than her simply defying me to cause me to throw her out. Punishment works well for those sorts of infractions of my rules. She adds much more to my life than a simple refusal to obey takes away. As long as she continues to add to my life I will keep her and not be too concerned over an occasional refusal. But it also depends on her attitude when shes refusing me. If she is doing it in a respectful manner like before and with some reasonable explantion to back it up, I can live with that. If she were to get ignorant and disrespecful about it and have some sort of drama fit about it and have no good reason for it that would be a problem and I would have to seriusly question her abot whether or not she still wanted to be my slave. If she said that she did I would punish her and tell her that she wold have to straighten up or she would be jepardizing her place in my life and in my home. She knows I cant stand drama or disrespect. I woudl see how things went after that. If she didn't straighten up and she began to act up more and more to the point that she was being more difficult than I wanted to deal with I would tell her that she would have to find a new home. quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit The recent thread regarding "SLAVE VS SUB" got me to thinking so I have a hypothetical situation to present to the group regarding an M/S relationship. For the purposes of this hypothetical situation, I'll need to establish a definition for the dynamic of the M/S relationship. I realize we have a multitude of different styles and dynamics on this forum, but for the parameters of this discussion I am using the most common definition I see which is also my own. I work off the axion of "Obey or Leave". The contigency that makes my M/S relationship an M/S relationship is that the slave cannot willfully defy me. By willfully defying me, she is saying that she is no longer my slave. Without this contigency, we're simply another vanilla couple. The hypothetical situation is that you are a Master in such a relationship and the relationship has lasted for several years (This situation wont be hypothetical for all people, of course). Then, one day a problem occurs and the slave willfully defys you. How would you handle it? Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority? Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact?

MadRabbit -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:36:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mountainpet It isn't always the master who "throws away the relationship over a simple 'no'". It is the sub or slave who uses the "no" word. Of course, the master might prompt it by ordering something he knows she won't do- but anyway, disobedience is a symptom, not a problem- the problem lies somewhere else. Thank you. That is a very good point and perspective and one very beneficial for this discussion

submittous -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:38:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: submittous quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I work off the axion of "Obey or Leave". The contigency that makes my M/S relationship an M/S relationship is that the slave cannot willfully defy me. By willfully defying me, she is saying that she is no longer my slave. Without this contigency, we're simply another vanilla couple. The hypothetical situation is that you are a Master in such a relationship and the relationship has lasted for several years (This situation wont be hypothetical for all people, of course). Then, one day a problem occurs and the slave willfully defys you. How would you handle it? Would you throw away a relationship that has extended years for the sake of perserving your own power/authority? Or would there be alternative methods you would try to keeping the relationship and dynamic going and intact? So what you are saying is your slave lives for years under your rules but when the going gets tuff you want to wuss out? Another axiom that floats around the bdsm community is "you can't own a slave that you are not willing to release" just a thought Bill Nope, I am just aware of the very possible conflict of interest. The A) wanting a power dynamic vs B) wanting to continue to be with someone you cherish, enjoy, and are close to Edited to Add : I am aware of that line of thought, but dont personally like it. I prefer the one about "two consenting adults working together threw hardships and issues to make an authority/power work" Well that is a conflict for you then, you say you want M/s and complete obedience but don't want to enfore the rules to get it... that's not really a conflict of interest, it's a conflict in reality. I don't think you can have both... If you can't enforce your rules in the end you will not have obedience from your slave.

MadRabbit -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:39:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit What do you think in regards to my opinion that such a dynamic can lead to instability? For example, how can a slave expect to trully "give herself to a Master" if she is afraid that he will throw away the relationship over a simple "No"? I can give you my perspective from the slave side of the relationship. In the beginning of our relationship, I struggled with feeling secure within it. I struggled with the "accept or leave" mindset and wondered if I was capable of being his slave. We spent a lot of time working through the fears that I have (and they still crop up from time to time) and it wasn't they dynamic that caused the fears, it was my own insecurities about being in a relationship. These days, I feel pretty damn secure in our relationship. We still have a lot of challenges because of the distance and immigration that we work through but not with my submission. It is actually pretty empowering and provides a lot of security to know that as long as I honor my commitment to him as his slave, then the relationship will last. I do not think there is anything simple about a slave refusing a direct order. For me to do that would be to act in a manner that goes against my own core values. I do not think that this mindset leads to instability within a relationship. If it does, then I would question if they are cut out to be in that type of a relationship in the first place. Knight's Kyra Thank you. That defiently gives me somthing to think about. I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to reply. This is turning out to be a very frutiful discussion. I realize these questions are hard ones to answer, but that is exactly why I asked them. I dont think this particular conflict, that can be a very real one in regarding keeping an M/S relationship lasting long term, gets discussed enough.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:40:48 PM)
The way I see the OP, if your relationship is so fragile that acting out one time is going to wreck it, than no matter how many years you put into it, it wasnt all that good to begin with. It would greatly depend on what that willful disobedience was, and the reason behind it. For all our best intentions, occasionaly we are incorrect and if that act of willful disobedience contradicts a command that was wrong (wether you knew it yet or not) it is far more forgivable tha something done simply becasue they didnt feel like it. If someone defies you once, you correct the behavior and make sure it is well understood that there will only be one chance given. The punishment should fit the offense, and they should be reminded how lucky they are you didnt end it when they thought their own wil was more important than yours. But throwing away years of work and emotion and devotion becasue of one offense is not being Dominant. It is almost like backing off, and letting the sub know you are not strong enough to master them, that your power crumbles at the smallest challenge. It takes a stronger person to take the situation in hand and reaffirm their position in the power dynamic than it does someone to throw their hands up and say they are done. My humble opinion of course DV

KnightofMists -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:43:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit What do you think in regards to my opinion that such a dynamic can lead to instability? For example, how can a slave expect to trully "give herself to a Master" if she is afraid that he will throw away the relationship over a simple "No"? ok.. how about this... does making a commitment of Fidelity and the fact that the relationship is over if this commitmet is broken... does this lead to instability.... I say no. I say no... because in essense... if the relationship is on a strong foundation... the idea that willfull disobedience will occur is rather pointless. The question is.. what is a strong foundation for the relationship... and this is a rather subjective answer. For me... I found it. I looked deeply into why my relationship works with Alandra. Frankly, Kyra responds to the same thing. They both respond to who I am. They both know exactly who I am.... and that which I am.... is what inspires them to submit. If who I am was a lie... the foundation would be threaten... and as the lie becomes exposed... the instability of the relationshiip will grow. But... since my representation was authentic... their decision to submit is given without deciet on my part. The other side of the equation is them being self-aware enough to truly understand what they want. If they are disceiving themselves... as the illussion is exposed... again.. instability will occur. It's not the threat of Obey or else that leads to instability... it's Illusions that will.

MadRabbit -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:43:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submittous Well that is a conflict for you then, you say you want M/s and complete obedience but don't want to enfore the rules to get it... that's not really a conflict of interest, it's a conflict in reality. I don't think you can have both... If you can't enforce your rules in the end you will not have obedience from your slave. But we are not talking about enforcing the rules. We are talking about ending a relationship. If one ends the relationship, then there is no more rules to enforce. Its simply over. I have no problem enforcing my own rules. To enforce them, I would still have to be in a relationship that had rules. No relationship, no rules.

MadRabbit -> RE: Throw It Away or Work Past It (8/26/2007 7:48:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit What do you think in regards to my opinion that such a dynamic can lead to instability? For example, how can a slave expect to trully "give herself to a Master" if she is afraid that he will throw away the relationship over a simple "No"? ok.. how about this... does making a commitment of Fidelity and the fact that the relationship is over if this commitmet is broken... does this lead to instability.... I say no. I say no... because in essense... if the relationship is on a strong foundation... the idea that willfull disobedience will occur is rather pointless. The question is.. what is a strong foundation for the relationship... and this is a rather subjective answer. For me... I found it. I looked deeply into why my relationship works with Alandra. Frankly, Kyra responds to the same thing. They both respond to who I am. They both know exactly who I am.... and that which I am.... is what inspires them to submit. If who I am was a lie... the foundation would be threaten... and as the lie becomes exposed... the instability of the relationshiip will grow. But... since my representation was authentic... their decision to submit is given without deciet on my part. The other side of the equation is them being self-aware enough to truly understand what they want. If they are disceiving themselves... as the illussion is exposed... again.. instability will occur. It's not the threat of Obey or else that leads to instability... it's Illusions that will. I think I understand what your saying. Its not about willful disobedience, but about the solidity of the relationship. If the relationship is solid, then its just not an issue all together. If its not solid, then the issue of willful disobedience over the relationship is mute because it wasnt meant to be.

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