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can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 5:22:01 AM

Perplex

Posts: 110
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

Disclaimer #1: I have no judgement good or bad of anything anybody wants to do, and while it may not be my thing if it makes them happy, then gods blessing and don't forget the lube...any hint or indication otherwise is a laspe in semantics and my humble ability to convey words on a page.

#disclaimer #2: My dog has teeth made out of lemon drops and is chewing on half of the world (in any legal document it never hurts to have the "he's shit nuts" clause just in case nothing else works later.) :) :) :)

ok, by opinion where does simple "kinky sex" end and submission begin, and vice versa. The last three "subs" I've met (in RL not through here or the net) have used the word sub like some sort of honorific, but their interest was purely in the pedastrian forms of spankings light bondage and maybe all hte way up to electric play.....

to me submission has always been about will, not abotu breaking a sub's will to the dom's delights, more about the dom using his/her will to open those hidden desires within a person and take responsablity for the acts so they can be free to enjoy them without the hang ups of how they were brought up (or other factors)

It is about beign a teacher, in both the pedastrian usage of the tools (like not using scented candles for wax play for example) and being a liason between the outer public face of a person and inner truth of the sub to let them enjoy in real life what they have always secretly fantazied about.

again, whereever you end up on the spectrum of the lifestyle, the I'm happy for you..I may not agree with you, or want to share your eel-pie butt munching...but I'll respect your right to do it, so no judgement about what or how you do what you do...(assuming you are following the traditonal ethical rules which apply to us all)

one more time: If anything has come across like a slam or disrespect to anyone's choices, even of words, then I spoke badly of my intent, I am simply trying to learn if the world has changed so much while I was looking somewhere else that kink and submissive are now synomyns (don't think badly of me, the last time I looked up from my navel people had phones with cords AND had to go inside a building to do banking, so what do I know)

Post #: 1

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 5:23:38 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

kum-ba-ya, my lord, kum-ba-ya......

Mbougtu

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Perplex)

Post #: 2

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 5:51:23 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

Cool disclaimers

This will probably contradict the premise of your OP, but I consider the dividing line between kink-oriented and submission-oriented to be when I have sufficiently educated them about themselves that they begin to accept responsibility for their own desires and begin begging me to help them fulfill those desires.

Assuming the individual in question a priori truly wishes to be a sub/slave.

If they do not reach the point where they own who and what they are, then either this is just a kink for them, or they are still dealing with the psychological detritus resulting from being sub/slave and living a vanilla life.

I strive to make it safe psychologically for them to embrace themselves and thus embrace their nature.

Once I've liberated them from the fears and worries of being who they've always wished to be, I find they progress much more rapidly and stop viewing this as 'kinky sex' and start seeing this as a way of life they want to live.

In the past, those I've grown fond of were fairly new to bdsm. They'd had some experience (some good, some bad) and wanted more.

But no one had taken them in hand and walked them through the process of accepting who and what they are.

To me, that's kink-oriented: doing the kinks but ignoring the psychology behind them.

The person who is submission-oriented (who wants to submit) with me learns to understand the psychology behind her desires.

She becomes far more self-aware, and self-accepting, than when we'd met.

I find it damn difficult to sustain the interest in a kink-oriented individual for any lengthy period of time. It lacks the intellectual/emotional/spiritual depth I need to truly engage on all thrusters.

So there is either an advancement on her part, or an acceptance on my part that she is really only interested in the kink and to let her move on to find someone more compatible with her interests.

Note, no one ever comes to me saying "I only want the paddle, not the psychology behind it". They've all come saying "I'm a submissive".

So I begin the process of uncovering exactly what they are and what they want (usually involving a ton of questions where "why" is the most frequent).

You'd be surprised how few of them have ever experienced that approach before. No one ever bothered to ask them why they wanted what they said they wanted.

Damn wannabe 'doms' are only interested in the kink, not the person.

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 8/28/2007 5:54:09 AM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Perplex)

Post #: 3

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 5:53:55 AM

Perplex

Posts: 110
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

kum-ba-ya, my lord, kum-ba-ya......

Mbougtu

while you're singing, could you do a little hula, some of the guys might need a lap dance too, so use your discretion...

yeah I'm a crunchy head but I'm a crunchy head with a crown, well several crowns at the moment and like they say the proof is in the pudding

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 4

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 5:54:01 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Just about every woman I meet, fails to meet some expectation I have of women. Should I demand they stop calling themselves women?

Instead of hanging yourself and them up on their preferred label (sub verses kinky) why not take the time to get to know the women in question a little better, and decide for yourself if she's submissive or not.

A quick look at your own style might be in order as well; are you sure you want a submissive, and not a supplicant? A submissive requires active work on your part, to compel her to obey. A supplicant actively seeks a position of subserviance, requiring little or no effort on your part to actually dominate.

Also, please try to use thread titles that are somewhat in tune with your question/thoughts in the future. I was most dissappointed to find this wasn't a thread related to wormplay.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 8/28/2007 6:01:04 AM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 5

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 6:11:19 AM

Perplex

Posts: 110
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

I'm so sorry Stephann, but I didn't know can of worms and wormplay would confuse anybody..though possibly the face shield part of the title was confusing cuz ya never know when the worms are going to come out at velocity...

but I agree, every person has to be handled as just that a person and you have to suit your gig to meet that person in the middle somewhere then sees what happens.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 6

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 6:15:28 AM

callistaIn

Posts: 62
Status: offline

quote:

Instead of hanging yourself and them up on their preferred label (sub verses kinky) why not take the time to get to know the women in question a little better, and decide for yourself if she's submissive or not.

I SOOOOOOOOO agree with this. People get so hung up on titles that they forget that not everyone defines certain words in the same way. What I may define as submissive; another may say is only kinky; and vice versa.

Take some time to get to know the person; find out if YOUR definitions clash or mesh; and then go from there.

callie

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 7

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 6:22:18 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: callistaIn

Take some time to get to know the person; find out if YOUR definitions clash or mesh; and then go from there.

callie

It would be nice if those who handed out that advice actually followed it.

But all too often it seems to be an expectation they have of the -other- guy, and not one they have of themselves.

As long as they refuse their own advice, I feel no compulsion to follow it.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to callistaIn)

Post #: 8

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 6:25:05 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perplex

I'm so sorry Stephann, but I didn't know can of worms and wormplay would confuse anybody..though possibly the face shield part of the title was confusing cuz ya never know when the worms are going to come out at velocity...

but I agree, every person has to be handled as just that a person and you have to suit your gig to meet that person in the middle somewhere then sees what happens.

Perhaps Stephann will start a wormplay thread.

It would probably have a high "ick" rating for me, but that's -another- can of worms

'nuff said on -that-

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Perplex)

Post #: 9

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 6:35:46 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

I've yet to meet a submissive woman (in the terms you describe) and I go to clubs, munches and the like. Most appear to be into subbing for kinky sex, even the ones that like to play hard. I'm not complaining about that, I'm more than happy to oblige them in their pursuit of pervered sex.

Anyway, most subs only want to sub for the 'one and only' which means tying oneself down in a relationship. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I want a woman in my bed, not in my life. I don't want to go home to a sulking woman because I haven't been home for three days and she can smell the scent of another woman on me.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/28/2007 6:37:24 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Perplex)

Post #: 10

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 6:43:25 AM

callistaIn

Posts: 62
Status: offline

quote:

As long as they refuse their own advice, I feel no compulsion to follow it.

You are indeed, a sad, sad person. I pity you almost.

quote:

I've yet to meet a submissive woman (in the terms you describe) and I go to clubs, munches and the like. Most appear to be into subbing for kinky sex, even the ones that like to play hard. I'm not complaining about that, I'm more than happy to oblige them in their pursuit of pervered sex.

Anyway, most subs only want to sub for the 'one and only' which means tying oneself down in a relationship. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I want a woman in my bed, not in my life. I don't want to go home to a sulking woman because I haven't been home for three days and she can smell the scent of another woman on me.

LOL a wonderful point meatcleaver

callie

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 11

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 6:44:58 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

To me, kinky sex and submission are not necessarily related to each other, just as sex and love are not necessarily related to each other.

i am submissive because i am obedient to my Master and i submit to His will.

i am kinky because my Master chooses to use me for kinky sex.

If He decides to not use me for any sex, of any kind, i would then be celibate and submissive.

He decides if, when, how, and with whom, i have sex, of any kind, including with myself.

If He decides to use me for receiving a whipping, i receive a whipping. If He decides that He wants to use me for being bound, i am bound. If He decides that He wants to use me to eat out a woman's pussy, i eat out a woman's pussy. If He decides that He wants to use me for drinking His piss, i drink His piss. It all depends on what He wants and what He decides to use me for.

i am kinky, or not, at His will.
i am submissive always.
i am His slave because He took control of me when i handed Him the decision-making power over me.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

"Commitment transforms a promise into a reality."

(in reply to Perplex)

Post #: 12

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 7:03:25 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I've yet to meet a submissive woman (in the terms you describe) and I go to clubs, munches and the like. Most appear to be into subbing for kinky sex, even the ones that like to play hard. I'm not complaining about that, I'm more than happy to oblige them in their pursuit of pervered sex.

Anyway, most subs only want to sub for the 'one and only' which means tying oneself down in a relationship. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I want a woman in my bed, not in my life. I don't want to go home to a sulking woman because I haven't been home for three days and she can smell the scent of another woman on me.

Which would explain why there is very little love lost between me and the munchkins.

I'll readily admit I've never understood that mentality.

It seems to me like a hollowed out Smartie: all shell and no chocolate centre.

I prefer both, but not everyone has what it takes to swing that load.

<shrug>

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 13

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 7:12:42 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Ah, definitions... good for a month's worth of debate. ;)

What constitutes a "submissive"? Someone who has authorized another to be in control in their relationship. Who defines "control"? The people in that unique relationship. As a result, "submissive" and "control" become (necessarily) relative terms. The same can be said for "Dominant" and "slave" and about any other label you'd care to mention.

By extension, distinguishing between a submissive and a bottom becomes a matter of personalized distinction in which everyone draws the line where it works for them (regardless of whether it works for others).

Many people are uncomfortable with the relative nature of BDSM terms, and work themselves into a logical pretzel trying to establish detailed universal criteria for each label. Other than being amusing, it's fruitless.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Perplex)

Post #: 14

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 7:19:20 AM

Perplex

Posts: 110
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

I love your font john..and cut me a break, I'm new I'm trying to make a good impression n stuff and yeah defintion debate is always good fodder

shoot, now I'm as pissed off as a magician who'se audience was watching the wrong hand.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 15

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 7:21:40 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I prefer both, but not everyone has what it takes to swing that load.

<shrug>

Well yep. The leash has two ends and both parties are equally a prisoner of it. If it had one end, securely attached to a sub and not to me, then I'd be happy with a relationship.

There is too much damn temptation in the town I live to put myself through the machinations of a relationship.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 16

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 7:28:32 AM

callistaIn

Posts: 62
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perplex

I love your font john..and cut me a break, I'm new I'm trying to make a good impression n stuff and yeah defintion debate is always good fodder

shoot, now I'm as pissed off as a magician who'se audience was watching the wrong hand.

Why are you trying to impress everyone? The only one that matters is yourself. Be honest, be sincere, be open minded...If you disagree with something someone said, say so...if you agree with it, say so...if you have something to add to a discussion, do so...people will be impressed by this more than by you trying to be witty on the message boards

Posts about definitions though, are always going to end up being 'free-for-all fests' simply because what works for one person, does not work for the next.

callie

(in reply to Perplex)

Post #: 17

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 7:37:44 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perplex
ok, by opinion where does simple "kinky sex" end and submission begin, and vice versa.

Where ever you want. They aren't exclusive- I tend to enjoy a lot of both on a very regular basis.

quote:

to me submission has always been about will, not abotu breaking a sub's will to the dom's delights, more about the dom using his/her will to open those hidden desires within a person and take responsablity for the acts so they can be free to enjoy them without the hang ups of how they were brought up (or other factors)

Then you need to make relationships with people who agree with those standards and expectations. I personally have a need for a submsisive who is a much more active participant in the relationship and insist that they take responsibility for their actions (the root of all behavior training requires this IMO).

And what about us few poor darlings who seriously DON'T have hang ups? Would you reject a sub just because she didn't have hang ups, took responsibility for her own choices, stood up proud and said "Hell yes I love to serve and fuck and want to do it really well"? Do you NEED to feed your protective knight ego?

quote:

It is about beign a teacher, in both the pedastrian usage of the tools (like not using scented candles for wax play for example) and being a liason between the outer public face of a person and inner truth of the sub to let them enjoy in real life what they have always secretly fantazied about.

Actually I find most DOMS need that sort of teaching and liason more than subs in general.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Perplex)

Post #: 18

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 7:46:39 AM

Perplex

Posts: 110
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Do you NEED to feed your protective knight ego?
Actually I find most DOMS need that sort of teaching and liason more than subs in general.

two well thought out points, and one made me puppy head tilt at myself. I guess I do have attachements to the dom as a form of chivarly that I hadn't looked at before. Interesting, ...mostly cuz I think the whole chivalric nonesense is so much bunk, but I guess you can the boy out of robin hood but you can't get the robin hood out of the boy..which is still a felony in most states. Never to old to learn something new about yourself. :)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 19

RE: can of worms..get your hard hats and blast sheilds - 8/28/2007 7:58:13 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: callistaIn

Take some time to get to know the person; find out if YOUR definitions clash or mesh; and then go from there.

callie

It would be nice if those who handed out that advice actually followed it.

But all too often it seems to be an expectation they have of the -other- guy, and not one they have of themselves.

As long as they refuse their own advice, I feel no compulsion to follow it.

And you know what exactly about me?...

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 20

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