RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 7:06:48 AM)

That 22% more likely to be killed by a gun kept at home statistic has been debunked a number of times for reasons stated already.  My match skills suck but I wonder if someone could take the "22% more likely" stat and calculate what percentage of shootings would have to take place in homes with guns for that to actually be true.

Of course, it also ignores the fact that where else are people usually killed, home, busineses, atm machines, bars, so if you live in a home you are probably 10% more likely to be murdered there right?

As for guns, I dont' know how many I own. way less than 50 but over 20.  Then there are stuff like Stens and AKs where you can just build them at home.

Sten submachineguns were built by polish jews in basements in Warsaw under Nazi "supervision".  Building guns is pretty easy, ammo isn't hard but you just need so damn much of it, but it is actually harder than building guns.  Magazines are probably the most tricky thing to build.



Owner59 -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 7:32:39 AM)

  Not for nothing,China could pull of an actual invasion.They have the numbers,and  the guns/bombs/rockets/tanks.boats/planes/material, to do it.

In ten short years,they`ll have grown even stronger.They have nukes,enough to destroy every square inch of north America,a few times over.

And soon,they`ll own us financially.They have already used their leverage over us,and got the USA(bush) to back down from our demand, that the US and China tie the value of our currencies together.

What a "braveheart" bush is.......pfffft



Owner59 -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 8:15:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

That 22% more likely to be killed by a gun kept at home statistic has been debunked a number of times for reasons stated already.  My match skills suck but I wonder if someone could take the "22% more likely" stat and calculate what percentage of shootings would have to take place in homes with guns for that to actually be true.

Of course, it also ignores the fact that where else are people usually killed, home, busineses, atm machines, bars, so if you live in a home you are probably 10% more likely to be murdered there right?

As for guns, I dont' know how many I own. way less than 50 but over 20.  Then there are stuff like Stens and AKs where you can just build them at home.

Sten submachineguns were built by polish jews in basements in Warsaw under Nazi "supervision".  Building guns is pretty easy, ammo isn't hard but you just need so damn much of it, but it is actually harder than building guns.  Magazines are probably the most tricky thing to build.


I`ve heard the claim that the 22% thing,was debunked.Other than the "claim" of debunking,I haven`t seen a thing,or paper,article(non-NRA),or study, that does this.


Would you post what material you know about,and links to articles/studies, that support the claim of debunking?


Not trying to change anyone`s mind.But this claim get`s bantied about often,with no real facts to back it up.I would like to see what info you have about this subject.

Every one knows that bringing something into the home carries a risk,and a benefit.

I`ve seen NRA talking heads say that having a pool in the back yard is riskier,that having a gun in the house.While not true,having a pool,definitely increases the risk of drowning.It`s almost to simple.

And conversely,having a gun in the house increases your chance of getting shot,or someone else(non-criminal)getting shot.
Without the gun,it`s  less to no chance you`ll  shoot a friend/family member/yourself.

This knowledge shouldn`t keep you from having a gun.But,a home owner should know all the ins and outs,benefits and risks,when deciding to bring a gun into the home.

To mis-inform a home owner about the risk vs. benefit ratio,is worse the reckless .



SimplyMichael -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 9:48:25 AM)

In that study, shooting an ex against whom you had a restraining order counted as "killing a loved one", same goes for a gang banger youth (age 19 or 23, I can't remember) who is either killed by or used a gun from the home.

Counting homes lived in by criminals involved in drugs and gang activity as well as abusive ex partners in my opinion completely negates any resulting statistics.

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=119



SimplyMichael -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 9:49:37 AM)

I still think the solution to gun crime is to ban drugs because if drugs were illegal we would have a lot less drug related violence.



linda57 -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 9:57:33 AM)

People kill people,a gun is an in-animate object! It's drugs that creates alot of crime,that involves more than just murder!



GhitaAmati -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 10:08:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

What 3" mortor?  US uses 60mm, 82mm, and 4.2 inch, Russians don't use inch and the brits had a 4 inch but I can't recall a 3 inch.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_ML_3_inch_Mortar




Real0ne -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 10:10:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I still think the solution to gun crime is to ban drugs because if drugs were illegal we would have a lot less drug related violence.



and there would be much less drug availiability if we banned the cia!



TheHeretic -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 11:05:31 AM)

      Let's try again, O59.  Yes, China has the manpower.  The simple truth is, they already have too many young men and that problem is going to do nothing but get worse.  One of the oldest solutions to that problem is to get a bunch of them killed in war.  Figure China starting a ground war somewhere in the next 20-ish years is inevitable.  Could be a lot sooner.

    The obvious 'where' is Taiwan, to start with.  They consider it a rebel province, whose re-unification with the mainland is inevitable.  Of course, Taiwan is under US protection.  How many of those twenty-nothings China needs dead can be euthanized in combat there (youth-in-Asia, get it?) will relate directly to how much support the US gives Taiwan. 

      A play for the Siberian oil-fields would achieve the same goal. 

     A Chinese invasion of the US?  Guns are only the tip of the ice-berg on why that would never work.

    (Just a hint;  if you're going to try and use China to mindlessly Bush-baa-ash, best not to mention their ICBM capabilities.  Clinton gave them that.)  



SimplyMichael -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 11:46:38 AM)

China can't invade Taiwan, they have no blue water navy, no heavy lift capability, and no amphibious capability.  As long as they can walk, they are fine.



TheHeretic -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 1:16:43 PM)

       Maybe a nice, long border dispute with India...  Two surplus populations slaughtering each other.  And you are absolutely right about China having a massive logistical build-up between themselves and reclaiming Taiwan.  I just think that would be the better choice for a meat-grinder than putting their infrastructure at risk in a full blown war with Russia.  I doubt we'd give Taiwan a Three Gorges size bunker buster.



luckydog1 -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 1:32:26 PM)

It seems China has the air power to cut off Taiwan, even with out a blue water navy ( though they are hard at work on building one).  Taiwan could not last a siege of 2 months,  they do not have the ability to feed or produce energy for thier population.  Taiwan has kick ass planes/millitary, but they are useless with out fuel.  And would America go to nuke war over Taiwan?  Would anyone?  But it really makes more sense for them to want  a Hong Kong style reunification, than to trash the place or use a nuetron bomb.  Siberia/Eastern Russia, seems to be the obvious medium range target.  Would they really take a nuke on Moscow to hold Magadan?  Plus as Micheal pointed out, they can walk.



cyberdude611 -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 2:59:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Not for nothing,China could pull of an actual invasion.They have the numbers,and  the guns/bombs/rockets/tanks.boats/planes/material, to do it.

In ten short years,they`ll have grown even stronger.They have nukes,enough to destroy every square inch of north America,a few times over.

And soon,they`ll own us financially.They have already used their leverage over us,and got the USA(bush) to back down from our demand, that the US and China tie the value of our currencies together.

What a "braveheart" bush is.......pfffft


One problem there dude... how are they going to get that invasion force over here? Their Navy is practically non-existant. They have right now 1 operating nuclear submarine which is equivalent to a Soviet sub of the 1960s. They have no aircraft carriers. Their air force is also far inferior to ours. There is no possible way China can get any troops into our part of the world.
It's never going to happen. The Pacific ocean is protecting us from China just as it protected us from Japan.

Sure they have a massive army... but what good is that if you can't stop the world's most powerful Navy and Air Force from blasting them all to hell? And the Chinese know this. They watched Desert Storm. Saddam has the world's largest army in 1991. We won that war in a day.



Alumbrado -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 3:11:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`ve heard the claim that the 22% thing,was debunked.Other than the "claim" of debunking,I haven`t seen a thing,or paper,article(non-NRA),or study, that does this.


Would you post what material you know about,and links to articles/studies, that support the claim of debunking?


Not trying to change anyone`s mind.But this claim get`s bantied about often,with no real facts to back it up.I would like to see what info you have about this subject.

Every one knows that bringing something into the home carries a risk,and a benefit.

I`ve seen NRA talking heads say that having a pool in the back yard is riskier,that having a gun in the house.While not true,having a pool,definitely increases the risk of drowning.It`s almost to simple.

And conversely,having a gun in the house increases your chance of getting shot,or someone else(non-criminal)getting shot.
Without the gun,it`s  less to no chance you`ll  shoot a friend/family member/yourself.

This knowledge shouldn`t keep you from having a gun.But,a home owner should know all the ins and outs,benefits and risks,when deciding to bring a gun into the home.

To mis-inform a home owner about the risk vs. benefit ratio,is worse the reckless .


OK, how about this one:

"G. Kleck 'Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun,'
Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Fall 1995.)"



dolceservo -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 5:35:06 PM)

I don't see how the fact that there is so many guns in the US could help the strategic defense of the country. I don't think they would be much useful in a total war against another military power. Shooting at a fox or at a pigeon is one thing another thing is waging a war against professional troops armed with artillery, tanks and air power.

What makes the united states virtually impossible to invade is that (beside the thousands nuclear warheads) the US navy has a blue navy that is bigger than all the other navies of the world combined.
It's a proportion never reached by no other  maritime power during world history.
Not to mention that the United States is still the leader of the mightiest allience ever existed, the Nato.

Having that said , with few dozens of old ships and at the best few akula class (russian bought) subs, the chinese can't be much of a threat at sea. The chinese know well enough that the Pacific Fleet alone can wipe out their pitiful navy in case of an invasion of taiwan let alone a threat to the american continent. I think such an invasion as the chinese invasion of the US can occur just on a risiko game board, and even there one needs a lot of luck with the dices![;)]



SeanPony -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 6:02:41 PM)

One thing I am kind of worried about are those damn sunburn Missiles.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20607



dcnovice -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 7:42:03 PM)

One question keeps arising as I read this thread: Does anyone really need to invade us?

We seem to be doing a fine job of destroying the country ourselves.



caitlyn -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 7:46:48 PM)

Exactly dcnovice!
 
Not to mention ... China would never invade us, because if by chance they were lucky enough to win, they wouldn't have a place to sell their cheap crap.



Level -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 8:00:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Not for nothing,China could pull of an actual invasion.They have the numbers,and  the guns/bombs/rockets/tanks.boats/planes/material, to do it.

In ten short years,they`ll have grown even stronger.They have nukes,enough to destroy every square inch of north America,a few times over.

And soon,they`ll own us financially.They have already used their leverage over us,and got the USA(bush) to back down from our demand, that the US and China tie the value of our currencies together.

What a "braveheart" bush is.......pfffft


One problem there dude... how are they going to get that invasion force over here?


That's where that digging a hole from China comes into play.....



SimplyMichael -> RE: Why no nation can invade America.... (9/2/2007 8:29:04 PM)

Taiwan and Isreal, as well as South Africa all worked together on their nuclear programs.  Isreal has by some counts over 100 weapons, South Africa dismantled theirs, and Taiwan, well they aren't saying.



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