RE: Money Question (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 6:36:52 AM)

Inflation existed long before the Federal Reserve, long before paper currency.  Two seperate issues.

Want something to chew on?  Wages, in constant dollars, have declined since 1968 with a small rise during the dot.com/Clinton years.  DECLINED...




cloudboy -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 7:22:53 AM)


If you think about it, declining wages are a great way to hide inflation.




GhitaAmati -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 7:22:54 AM)

www.libertydollar.org




Real0ne -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 7:42:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


If you think about it, declining wages are a great way to hide inflation.


Its the other way around.

your investments and anything in the form of money (401k's) etc does not get compensated for inflation. 

So when they inflate the economy by 30% over 5 years your 10,000 is now worth only 7000.

Likewise unless you get a raise at the exact time and the exact amount of the added inflation you make less money thus your wages have declined as a result of that inflation.

The number on your check is the same but you cannot buy as much goods with it.

Its a hidden tax and it is driving every one and this country into bankruptcy.

and i might add the reason its referred to as a hidden tax is because it is integrated into the national debt and paying that debt falls back on you and me.

Do i hear dryfuckt?   Have to hand it to ron paul at least he is both on the right track and tryin!






seeksfemslave -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 10:53:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
said that  if
Final amount of money     = F
Starting amount of money = S
then
F = S * e^([Anual interest rate] * [Number of years])

Why have you "suddenly" introduced "e" into the equation ?

Shouldnt it really  be
F = S * 1.06^47

If you answer please, dont tell me what "e" is, cos I already know lol

eg one definition is
if y = e^x and if dy/dx = 1 at the point x=0 y=1
then e  is an irrational constant with an approximate value of 2.7182

Only showing off lol though I do think your equation is wrong.
Just something else stored in my memory bank and that is that if money is compounded continuously then "e" does crop up in the  equation used to get final value but the OP gave an annual rate of interest, not a continuous rate, so I think thats another strike against you.




CuriousLord -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 11:46:58 AM)

'e' is used in the contineously compounding interest equation.  I like it, since it's very accurate- you can desposit your money 500 times, each for random amounts of time that each average a day, and, at the end, you'll have the exact same amount as if you had just deposited all of your money for 500 days straight.  It's a very clean system.

If you care for the derivation..
F = S * (1 + i)^t for F = final money, S = starting money, i = interest, and t = time
..is the basic definition of interest (compounding at the unit of t, typically a year).

To compound regularly, the equation is expanded to..
F = S * (1 + i/n)^(t*n)  for n = number of times per year
.  This is to say, if you want to compound quarterly (or every three months), n = 4 (since there are 4 three-month periods in a year), so you have..
F = S * (1 + i/4)^(4 t)
.. as your quarterly compounding equation.

You'll notice that, as n gets bigger and bigger, it compounds more (yet still conversing much of the same interest rate).  If someone wants to get their money, normally, it might be wise for them to wait until it's just compounded- so they can get the new highest amount.  This is sort of an ugly thing to make people do, and it'd be cleaner if they just earned a little bit by the second, right?  So we want to compound a lot.  Constantly, really.   So we want n to be as big as possible, which would be infinity.  In the beginnings of Calculus, we have limits.

So, making n as big as possible (approaching infinity), we get...
F = lim (as n goes to infinity) [S * (1 + i/n)^(n * t)
= S * lim (as n goes to infiity) [(1+i/n)^(nt)]
Now, lim (x->inf) [(1+a/x)^x] approaches (and therefore equals) e^a, by definition.
Applying this, we get..
F = S * e^(rt) where F = final amount, S = starting amount, r = anual interest rate, t = time in years.

Now we have an equation, F = Se^(rt), that calculates interest as if we compounded constantly.

(It's a bit of a long explanation, but I like how they did it.)




Real0ne -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 11:58:26 AM)



yah both you guys us the standard formula but i like my way better because at most maybe 7 - 10% off over 75years and you can do it in 3 seconds in your head!

Works great for quick comparisons and you do no t have a need to carry a calculator around with you.




CuriousLord -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 12:21:14 PM)

It doubles every seven years when the interest rate is ~9.9%.

It doubles about every [...] years for the interest rate [...].
[ln(2)/interest] // interest
years // [ln(2)/years]
69.3 years // 1%
13.9 years // 5%
8.7 years // 8%
6.9 years // 10%
4.6 years // 15%
3.5 years // 20%
2.8 years // 25%




Real0ne -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 12:31:08 PM)

yep the "72" rule :)




KAZVorpal -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 1:32:46 PM)

I've written more than one article on inflation and the Federal Reserve...but more interesting, probably, is the inflation calculator I wrote. It lets you calculate, if I recall correctly, the value of money from any year of the 20th century, backward or forward with the present...although it's using 2005 dollars, as that's the last time I updated it.

The reason inflation is harmful is that it's a tax on the poor, and to a lesser extent the middle class:

The more wealth you have, the higher a percentage of your wealth will typically be stored in assets that valuate in response to inflation, like real estate and stocks. Likewise your income will include both cost of living raises AND separate raises to reflect your performance or tenture...or your income will be from investments or business revenue that, again, respond(s) to inflation.

But if you are poor, most of your assets are in consumer products or cash. You have a savings account that doesn't even pay as much as inflation, much less inflation plus interest. Your income increases by some token amount each year (unless you've chosen an optimal career path, which is difficult without experience because of labor laws pricing you out of doing so), without separate cost of living raises. In essence, every percentage point of inflation represents a LOSS, to you.

What's more, the natural course of an economy is for wealth to increase, while cost of production decreases, so that there is moderate DEflation. The inflation we suffer is an artificial condition, imposed by people whose official goals actually do acknowledge, in prettier words, that they're robbing the poor to benefit the wealthy. This is one of the unhealthy functions of the Federal Reserve, along with keeping employees at a disadvantage by inflating unemployment.

On the other hand, the value of ALL things is whatever people are willing to trade for it. To complain that money has no real value is, therefore, contradictory. I do not support the dangerous premise of returning to a gold standard, either. Because objective wealth in society increases every year, depending on a completely stagnant, uncontrollable monetary foundation would make Depressions, like those preceeding the dissolution of the gold standard, inevitable. There would be constant deflation, which would be resisted constantly by the economy, with periodic bubble-bursts of adjustment.

I think Miltron Friedman had the best idea; a currency whose supply was increased in careful synchronicity with the increase of wealth in the economy. This would allow for the slight natural deflation caused by advancements in technology, which benefit even the poor. It should also (starts punching Microsoft Windows for interrupting his typing) be done in some way other than by giving unearned money to wealthy banks, the way the Federal Reserve does. Even as a minarchist, I'd find the government actually spending the newly printed money directly to be a more tolerable means of introducing it into the economy.

Of course even better would be for government to get out of the business of money, altogether. We can't trust it to manage less easily abused aspects of society, much less money. Banks could compete to produce a universally desirable currency, and that competition would both produce better results, and also serve as an absolutely irresistable means of keeping them in line, that the government does not have.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 3:15:57 PM)

quote:

KAZVorpal
The reason inflation is harmful is that it's a tax on the poor, and to a lesser extent the middle class:


Were it not so governments in advanced western societies would never allow it to occur. ie the money supply would be properly controlled.

In 3rd world fleapits  those in government are just kleptomaniacs. See a  report on the millions stolen by the Kenyan regime run by Daniel Moi.





seeksfemslave -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 3:21:34 PM)

CuriousLord:
A simple "you are right" would have sufficed lol
I knew that anyway, you cant argue with maths..
Cocky barstard aren't I ?




KAZVorpal -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 3:32:46 PM)

quote:

quote:

The reason inflation is harmful is that it's a tax on the poor, and to a lesser extent the middle class:
Were it not so governments in advanced western societies would never allow it to occur. ie the money supply would be properly controlled.


Not necessarily true. Governments are not able to sanely regulate much of anything with competence. They might try harder to prevent inflation, but I wouldn't bank on them being very good at it, any more than they're capable of supplying a society with automobiles, or education, or safety.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 3:50:23 PM)

Manufacture or anything remotely representing real work is a total anathema to those who aspire to govern others.

The consequences of variations in the total quantity of money in an economy relative to the real output of that economy, ie the real value of money are reasonably well understood, its just that those consequences are ignored in order to make society a  better place at NO real cost to anybody.
Unfortunately it doesn't work and as you have noticed its the poor that take the "hit".




MrRodgers -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 4:17:58 PM)

.




MrRodgers -> RE: Money Question (8/31/2007 5:18:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Inflation existed long before the Federal Reserve, long before paper currency.  Two seperate issues.

Want something to chew on?  Wages, in constant dollars, have declined since 1968 with a small rise during the dot.com/Clinton years.  DECLINED...


You are quite right inflation according the best information attainable from 1793 at 4 years after the constitution and the formation of our new government until 120 years later in 1913 when the Fed was formed...we had 17% inflation in the costs of living.

SINCE: 1913 and until 2003 only 90 years later...we have had 1000% yes, fellow sodomites...that's ONE THOUSAND PERCENT inflation under our federal banking system. I have written here and will again, the following quote:

"You know my feelings against creating a federal banking system and turning paper into money for if we do that...we will forever be slave to the speculators." John Adams, circa 1820's in a letter to a friend shortly before his death in 1826.

The capitalists build inflation into the economy to protect their return on capital (the real definition btw) and as pointed out above...reducing the return on labor. With prices almost across the board in his contracts going up at CPI...everything above that is gravy after inflation profit. Everything to the capitalist is a growth in revenue (cash flow) over and above the 'rate' of inflation. So he never loses...you do. Look at gas, housing, most comodities not to mention software and tell me these aren't inflation proof.

quote:

 
Want something to chew on?  Wages, in constant dollars, have declined since 1968 with a small rise during the dot.com/Clinton years.  DECLINED...


Another tid bit to chew on...circa 1870's to the 1890's about 100,000 single family homes were built in the suburbs then of what was to essentially become Phil., Pa. Most were brick colonials, had 3-4 bedrooms, an outhouse, well water and were all also typically built ready to move in and including the land all bought and paid for in 6 years. One wage earner not two. The amortized 10 then 20 then 30 and now 40 year home mortgage requiring a 1/3 of the income (almost 1/2 after tax income) 30 years that's 30 years to pay (we buy 1 and pay for 3 houses) and other real estate financial advantages has impoverished this nation exponentially.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Money Question (9/1/2007 1:31:04 AM)

If you only use as money a token that is considered to have real value then another problem crops up.

There just "aint" enough say gold to finance world trade at current levels so the consequence ?
Gold increases in value. OK if you hold a lot of Gold in the first place because you get a massive unearned increase in wealth. Those that dont have a lot cant purchase so much internationally so ultimately a world wide depression comes about which is very difficult to cure.
As I understand it this rise in the value of Gold is why the French manoevered to free up the international market in Gold. Cos you Americans had got a lot of it and were accruing unearned benefits lol.
One of the first things our Chancellor now Prime Minister did when he got into office was to sell off a lot of Brit Gold reserves.

The root cause of inflation is the way money is created by the private banking system. It is this problem that the Federal Reserve should but wont control, until it is too late. Thats what unrestrained economic "freedom" does for you, The powers that be in the US know this quite well but bamboozle the lower orders with ridiculous arguments about Socialism, and you all fall for it. he he he he he he

Give 'em a gun to keep the commies at bay and thats sufficient, so it seems anyway.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Money Question (9/1/2007 7:16:52 AM)

Anyone who quotes Friedman about economics isn't worth listening to.  Want a lesson in Friedman economics, look at Iraq.  They turned a passable third world hellhole into a complete fucking free market disaster.  Only Republicans can make a third world country worse and Friedman is their god.

As for the economics of housing, that is interesting, any decent books or REPUTABLE sources on that?  Also though keep in mind that they had less of everything else back then, Sunday best was the ONLY best, they didn't have three cars, an RV, a boat, two jetskis, etc.  More things like furniture were passed from generation to generation.  We have a rather vapid need for "new" and if you step outside that economy, things are amazingly different. 




NorthernGent -> RE: Money Question (9/1/2007 7:28:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Anyone who quotes Friedman about economics isn't worth listening to.  Want a lesson in Friedman economics, look at Iraq.  They turned a passable third world hellhole into a complete fucking free market disaster. 



"Third world hellhole".......I suppose such rhetoric saves learning time, if nothing else.

Free market doesn't equate to not "worth listening to".....free market, socialist, third way etc...they're simply different takes on the best methods of organising people for co-existence...the mistake was the attempt to impose an idea, any idea, in a foreign nation: that is the disaster.




MistressDaisy73 -> RE: Money Question (9/1/2007 9:51:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Anyone who quotes Friedman about economics isn't worth listening to.  Want a lesson in Friedman economics, look at Iraq.  They turned a passable third world hellhole into a complete fucking free market disaster. 



"Third world hellhole".......I suppose such rhetoric saves learning time, if nothing else.

Free market doesn't equate to not "worth listening to".....free market, socialist, third way etc...they're simply different takes on the best methods of organising people for co-existence...the mistake was the attempt to impose an idea, any idea, in a foreign nation: that is the disaster.


BINGO! (And actually the same is true to a lesser degree here in the US as well since the various corners of our fair country had (long time ago) initially had their own, more local way of "doing things". More federal involvment imposing a blanket on those who might prefer to be a little chilly. There ARE consequences that stem from that even today.)




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