RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (Full Version)

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BoiJen -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:16:57 AM)

If you cannot tell your partner openly about what it is your doing no matter what it is , pedicure or BDSM, then you're cheating.



cloudboy -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:18:12 AM)

Let it also be said that "lying" and "cheating" are not ispo-facto wrong or immoral. Sometimes they are a sign of maturity, discretion, and individualism. Unlike many, I don't think relationship ethics are fixed, universal truths. No, I believe they are relative and situational.

As usual, I like to quote Dan Savage:


Topic: Is it OK for couples to keep big secrets (credit-card debt, plastic surgery, etc) as long as they don�t involve infidelity?

Posted by: Dan Savage

>I've often said... and I still believe... that a relationship is not a deposition. Not only are you not required to answer every question truthfully, no relationship could long survive the kind of "full disclosure" reveal-a-thon that so many backers of "honesty" seem to support. All healthy, lasting, long-term relationship are built on a foundation of lies—from the outset. When you first meet someone you don't present your honest & true self to them, warts and all, so that they can make an informed choice about dating you. Nope, you present the best possible version of yourself, a sort of Potemkin boyfriend/girlfriend. And then, if the person sticks around, if he or she falls for this idealized person you were pretending to be, you're really stuck—for the rest of your life you have to live up to the lies you told about yourself, you have to try to be the wonderful, perfect, wholly fictional person you were on that first date or during those first few months.

And here's the magic: if you live up to the lies long enough... you can make the lies come true. Relationships can sometimes make us better people because we have to make good on our deceitful, lying presentation of ourselves.

However... and you knew there'd be a "but"...

There are lies that involve stuff your lover doesn't need or want to know, and then there are lies involving stuff that your love has a right to know. I would definitely file "credit card debt" under "right to know," since anyone that marries you can be held legally liable for your credit card debt. A little plastic surgery long before you met? I would file that under ""doesn't need to know" as it has no impact, no consequences, on your spouse or your relationship. Used to be a man? Right to know. Had gay sex once in college? Doesn't need to know. Family mobbed up? Right to know. Etc.

The trouble, of course, is that no completely exhaustive list separating "doesn't need to know" items from "right to know" items has ever been compiled. We all have to make up our own, and we have to use our common sense when we debate disclosure v. omission. And that's where the trouble comes in. If I've learned anything writing a sex-advice column lo these many years, it's that common sense is lacking. If I ruled the world I'd have it put in the water supply, like freakin' fluoride.<



Dnomyar -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:19:50 AM)

If lying to yourself is the worst form of abuse. Is that a kink?



LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:23:23 AM)

bottom line this is about honor and respect if you can not honor or respect what you put down on paper or in front of people !!!move on cause this lifestyle is not for you .....some rules you have to stand by or you have nothing or you are nothing just that simple...some people will make up excuses for anything.. you are nothing



BoiJen -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:29:25 AM)

the lifestyle is full of liars and cheats. We are not all honorable. We have no code of ethics or morality as a community. I like to think we would do the right thing if we found one of our partners were married or if we were committed ourselves. But I know that's just not the case.

I don't think cheating is okay. I think people who do it are done with their relationship or at least should be. It's not about descretion or individualism and I find that those trying to justify cheating are cheaters themselves. Cheating is about getting a need want or desire met in a dishonest way. Which then again turns around to if you can't get it at home and are having such a hard time grow up and lave the relationship don't cheat. Be honest and say my needs wants an/or desires aren't being met and I have found someone who will meet these. Then again most people aren't honest about what they want or need to themselves much less their partners.



AquaticSub -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:30:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissIsis

I will refrain from giving my own opinions, and I know this is subjective.  I really just want to get a discussion going. 

Is it really considered cheating if someone is married & they seek out a dominant for bdsm activities only, & exclude sexual contact?  After all, it isn't considered cheating if someone gets their nails done by someone other than their SO, or a pedicure, which can be quite intimate, or finding a tennis partner other than their SO?  Wouldn't receiving bdsm activities be along the lines of receiving a service sometimes? 


Depends on how you view it.

I can orgasm from spanking, if done properly. That makes my reaction to it sexual. So even if it's not sexual for someone else, BDSM, even without stereotypical sexual contact, is sexual for me. I would regard it as breaking the terms of our relationship if either of us were to play with someone else without talking about it with the other person. That's really what cheating is, isn't it? Breaking the terms of the relationship.



GhitaAmati -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:31:51 AM)

pretty much everything I believe has already been said here....if you would feel guilty about telling your partner about it...whether its dinner, a bdsm scene, or even an email chait with another person online, then its cheating. Id even call watching porn that you cant tell your partner about a form of cheating. If you have to go get some form of porn to fufill your fantasies, but cant tell your partner about those fantasies....then your cheating both your partner and yourself of honesty...



slavegirljoy -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:34:06 AM)

Since many marriages are very open and the spouses don't put strict rules on what each other does outside of their relationship, i would have to say that, only the people in that relationship can decide what is cheating and what isn't.  Some married couples don't require their spouse to tell them where they go, what they do, or who they do it with.  If yours does, then not telling would most likely be considered cheating.  But, only your spouse can really answer that question.  Not every marriage is based on the same value system or the same rules. One of the common definitions of cheating is to violate the established rules.  If the established rules in your relationship do not forbid activities with others, of either a sexual or nonsexual nature and, don't require full disclosure, then i would have to say that, it would probably not be considered violating the established rules of your relationship to be involved in BDSM with someone outside of your marriage, even without telling your spouse. If the established rules of your relationship forbids any outside activity, of either a sexual or nonsexual nature or, requires you to keep your spouse fully informed of any outside activity with others.  Then, i would say, that it probably would be considered cheating to do that without telling your spouse.  But, again, only you and your spouse can decide that. Only you know what the rules of your relationship are and only you and your spouse can decide what counts as cheating in your relationship.  If you have a fairly open marriage but, you haven't talked specifically about getting involved in BDSM with another, then you might want to have that discussion before you do anything. Just my opinion...... slave joyOwned property of Master David ___________________________________________"Commitment transforms a promise into a reality." 
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissIsis

I will refrain from giving my own opinions, and I know this is subjective.  I really just want to get a discussion going. 

Is it really considered cheating if someone is married & they seek out a dominant for bdsm activities only, & exclude sexual contact?  After all, it isn't considered cheating if someone gets their nails done by someone other than their SO, or a pedicure, which can be quite intimate, or finding a tennis partner other than their SO?  Wouldn't receiving bdsm activities be along the lines of receiving a service sometimes? 



hmmmmnbird -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:44:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissIsis

Thanks everyone for your comments.  I tend to lean more to the side of one's intent.  However, that being said, if cheating involves being aroused & turned on, then wouldn't looking at porn or getting off on it, be it stories or pictures, be included in this definition?  Wouldn't it be cheating if the person was only thinking about that person at the office while having sex with the SO also be cheating?  


As other's have said: if you're looking at porn surreptitiously, and hiding it from your partner, then, yes, it is also cheating.  I put another spin on it: any activity or action that is taking away from, or interfereing with your primary relationship, is cheating of a sort. No matter what you call it, it's detrimental to the relationship, and therefore, it's a problem. So, one could argue that looking at porn, or  thinking about someone else while having sex with a SO would not be cheating, because it  helps one to get off, and therefor enhances the relationship. Again, if it's done openly, and with consent,and truly does enhance the relationship and lead to greater intimacy between the primary partners, then I would not consider it cheating.

Your example of playing tennis with someone brought back a memory from my  counseling days (I'm now retired).A client who was upset becasue her husband had a female co-worker with whom he worked out and saw socially without the wife present. He spent more time with this woman than the wife cared for, to the extent of missing or cancelling family events and commitiments to fit the gym partners schedule.  He was unwilling to grant his wife's wishes that he spend less time with this woman, so I consider that cheating. Eventually, he admitted that he was having an affair, and asked for a divorce .
I  often  heard clients complain about the spouses drinking, or drug use, or time spent at the office, which interfered with the  family or primary relationship. There's been many debates as to whether internet chatting, and/or cyber sex is really cheating, since there is no actually touching, etc.
I beleive that if someone is persisting in a behavior that s/he knows is upsetting to the spouse, and refuses to modify, stop, or disscuss the behavior, it is a problem in the relationship, and needs to be addressed.
Rather than get into an argument over definitions, (am I an alcholic? is it technically cheating? ) for me, the question is: is this the type of relationship I want? If my partner is unwilling to honor my needs and wishes, then, something is seriosly wrong, and the relationship is in trouble. Call it what you want.



Perplex -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:47:43 AM)

I tend to agree with what was said about lying and cheating not being bad things, it depends on how good you are at.  I know several people who do what thier SO's wouldn't approve of, but are careful enough never to get caught so nobody gets hurt, they themselves can handle thier personal morality of the subject so where is the harm.  Harm comes when you are doing something wrong and get busted and someone gets hurt.  Fun and games are always great til somebody loses an eye....

to paraphrase a lawyer friend, it ain't a crime unless you get caught.   It might be wrong, it might be evil, it might against truth justice and the american way, but it's not a crime (lots of things are against justice and still not a crime) and with cheating it's much the same. 

Otherwise I agree with everyone saying if you have to hide it you are cheating.  Now I know the OP said they'd hold thier opinion so I know this discussion is just done for the love of the game, but if it were about happening events, I'd say the OP is looking to justify something they already know they will do so why are they looking for permission from strangers when you're own SO's opinion matter so little. 



cloudboy -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:53:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

I think people who do it are done with their relationship or at least should be. It's not about descretion or individualism and I find that those trying to justify cheating are cheaters themselves. Cheating is about getting a need want or desire met in a dishonest way. Which then again turns around to if you can't get it at home and are having such a hard time grow up and lave the relationship don't cheat. Be honest and say my needs wants an/or desires aren't being met and I have found someone who will meet these. Then again most people aren't honest about what they want or need to themselves much less their partners.



I don't see the high morality, utility, or desirability of the serial monogamy you purport here. Better to give people latitude and understanding, two important elements in any loving, LT relationship.

Latitude and understanding create an atmosphere where honesty can succeed, whereas hardline positions and declarations foster deceit as a non conformists's more likely first option.



hmmmmnbird -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:57:54 AM)

"That's really what cheating is, isn't it? Breaking the terms of the relationship."
"One of the common definitions of cheating is to violate the established rules." 

Well, and succintly, said. That's the essence of what I was trying to say.



AquaticSub -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 8:59:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

I think people who do it are done with their relationship or at least should be. It's not about descretion or individualism and I find that those trying to justify cheating are cheaters themselves. Cheating is about getting a need want or desire met in a dishonest way. Which then again turns around to if you can't get it at home and are having such a hard time grow up and lave the relationship don't cheat. Be honest and say my needs wants an/or desires aren't being met and I have found someone who will meet these. Then again most people aren't honest about what they want or need to themselves much less their partners.



I don't see the high morality, utility, or desirability of the serial monogamy you purport here. Better to give people latitude and understanding, two important elements in any loving, LT relationship.

Latitude and understanding create an atmosphere where honesty can succeed, whereas hardline positions and declarations foster an environment where deceit is more likely to be a non conformists's first option.


There is a difference between two people desiring and agreeing to monogamoy and then breaking the terms of the relationship, and having an outsider consider the relationship dead and supporting serial monogamoy. It's no different in a polyamorous relationship after all. If you agree to have an exclusive triangle or be exclusive between six people and you go outside it than you are cheating.

The OP did not state what sort of relationship the cheating was taking place in or why the SO would consider it cheating. I'm allowed to sleep with just about any woman I want but there is one woman I'm not allowed to sleep with so sleeping or playing a scene with her would be cheating.



ChainsandFreedom -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 9:34:00 AM)

CLOUDBOY
you used the term serial monogamy. Would you or anyone else mind quckly explaining this to me?
Sorry for the the definition hijack.



ChainsandFreedom -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 9:39:49 AM)

personally,

I have found that any action that hurts your partner should be avoided.

A complicated list of what is/isn't cheating can be lawyered around. And if you need a list to refrain from disrespecting your partner(s), you're heads probably not in the game enough for the relationship in the first place. Talk about what kind of things would hurt one another and why, and refrain from anything similar that comes up.

to answer the question, yes, bdsm is probably cheating for most relationships...if it wasn't sexy and sexual and emotional, people would enjoy getting ordered around and yelled at by their boss.



LightHeartedMaam -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 9:43:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissIsis

I will refrain from giving my own opinions, and I know this is subjective.  I really just want to get a discussion going. 

Is it really considered cheating if someone is married & they seek out a dominant for bdsm activities only, & exclude sexual contact?  After all, it isn't considered cheating if someone gets their nails done by someone other than their SO, or a pedicure, which can be quite intimate, or finding a tennis partner other than their SO?  Wouldn't receiving bdsm activities be along the lines of receiving a service sometimes? 


It's only cheating if your SO is extremely insecure with your relationship.  IF so, tell them EVERYTHING.. such as what you have listed above as well as when you intend to relieve yourself in the bathroom  (don't leave out the color, size, smell and volume) or go out and fill the bird feeder.

To some just looking at another is cheating to others they go with a don't ask don't tell policy.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 9:52:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainsandFreedom
CLOUDBOY
you used the term serial monogamy. Would you or anyone else mind quckly explaining this to me?
Sorry for the the definition hijack.

One intimate relationship at a time.

Literal monogamy is one relationship, forever, period.  Most people these days tend to practice serial monogamy.



MistressSassy66 -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 10:35:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissIsis

I will refrain from giving my own opinions, and I know this is subjective.  I really just want to get a discussion going. 

Is it really considered cheating if someone is married & they seek out a dominant for bdsm activities only, & exclude sexual contact?  After all, it isn't considered cheating if someone gets their nails done by someone other than their SO, or a pedicure, which can be quite intimate, or finding a tennis partner other than their SO?  Wouldn't receiving bdsm activities be along the lines of receiving a service sometimes? 



That is exactly how I see it.
How can it be cheating or taking something away from their SO/family when there is no sex.

To say anytime away from a family is cheating means that a wife going by herself to get nails/hair done could be cheating,shes away from the family.
I hear quite a few wives complain that their husband is out playing sports and not at home,I guess that means hes cheating on his family as hes not with them.Then there are the ones who go out with the girls/guys for a night out,spending money on drinks/movies/dinner that can be construed as cheating also.
To define the above as cheating means that just about every single person here has cheated at least once at some point in time.

Personally,I dont define the above as cheating.I see it as a way for the SO to rejuvenate themselves,if they go home feeling better then it helps the family as a whole.Just as in a BDSM session(paying or not) the person goes home feeling good then that will project onto their family making everyone feel good.

Assuming of course the spouse is okay with whatever activity their spouse is doing.
Still its not cheating,but disrespecting your SO/family and thats not really cool in My book.
I have to mention that I dont condone anyone spending money on things they cant afford,however I dont see it as cheating but as being irresponsable again not a good thing.



MissIsis -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 11:24:05 AM)

Thanks everyone.  I really just wanted to get a discussion going.  There is a great deal in the way of food for thought here from everyone's reply.   If it is so hard to get a concrete answer, of which everyone agrees on, and the definition of cheating, is as I said, subjective to the parties involved, do any of us, except those directly involved, really have a right to judge what is going on with others, who have nothing to do with us, nor who will ever be a part of our lives?  

Open & honest communication, before entering into a relationship, regarding these types of matters might go a very long way in avoiding some of the misunderstandings that can often become part of relationships falling apart.  It would be great if we could all step back now & then, especially when we are feeling that new "love" & all the feelings that go along with it, & discuss those things, including this topic, which really matter to us.  Equally, it would be nice, if those we become involved with, would respect these issues that matter to us, & step aside if they know their situations can't meet our needs & desires.  My hats off to all who can maintain this kind of integrity in each of their lives. 



LadyPact -> RE: Bdsm w/out sex, cheating? (8/30/2007 11:40:41 AM)

Just adding My two cents to the change jar.
 
After reading a lot of well thought out responses, I think slavegirljoy's is probably the closest to My own.  That being the definition of cheating is really determined by those involved in the relationship.  Somewhere along the line, the persons involved helped to create the definition that works for them.  In many cases, they have come up with what physical, mental, and spiritual boundries those things include.  For example, many people see sex with someone outside the relationship as cheating, but those involved in an open marriage might not.  Yet, in the same open marriage, if a person lies about the sexual activity, if a total honesty agreement has been made, it falls back into the cheating catagory.  In My personal experience, I've found more often than not that the deception, rather than a sexual act, constitutes cheating.
 
The same can be said of activities that are put under the umbrella of BDSM.  It is up to those persons in the relationship to define what constitues cheating.  Just to clarify that, IMO, that means ALL persons involved.  Let Me further explain:
 
I am married.  At this particular time, I have a married submissive.  When negotiations for what activities are acceptable, and which ones aren't, that means there are four people who are knowledgable of what will be participated in and have input.  If any one of the four have a limit, that limit is respected.  If his wife would withdraw her consent for his time with Me, that would be honored.  If My husband would withdraw his consent, that would be honored.  Until that time, none of the four of Us consider it cheating.  If someone outside the four considers it cheating, it really doesn't matter much, since they have no personal involvement.



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